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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 10:03:17


 
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





Well the reason is that the normal Carnifex is not meant to be good against vehicles. You have the Crushing Claw version for that.
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard






 Therion wrote:
How on earth would anyone compare something to the Razorback.

Nobody in this entire edition used a Razorback that was not getting full re-rolls to hit and to wound from Guilliman. I thought even the most raging casual players knew that basically everything Space Marine sucks ass compared to everything else, unless it's being buffed by Guilliman. The whole point is that Hurricane Bolters on Stormravens, that wound even T7 on a 5+, and Asscans that wound everything at least on a 5+ but mostly better, are good because of the re-roll to wound. Without that, they're garbage. Hurricanes will go out of fashion just because of Astra T8 spam lists.

To me the Dakkafex has the advantage of being able to move without penalty, but that's where it ends.

Where I play every tournament has a 3 max rule to prevent spamming, but I wouldn't really mind even if I saw 9 of those. It's a full tier below the Guilliman's parking lot play style.




Dakkafex is still better against almost every target as a rerolls to hit asscan razorback.

Worse vs T7 2+
Equal vs T7 3+

Even with rerolls to wound, it's anywhere from equally effective (T3 5+) to ~60% as effective (Vs T7 3+).

Considering that it does not lose effectiveness when it moves, still gains benefits from hive fleet tactics, and is not tied specifically to a single chapter and one character that forces it to play in a castle formation. Yes, it's quite comparable.

Also, razorspam just won the GW GT. It's absolutely a working army atm.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 10:34:43


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




If the tails have changed to increase the number of attacks, maybe that now taking a bone mace is a good thing?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Spoletta wrote:
If the tails have changed to increase the number of attacks, maybe that now taking a bone mace is a good thing?


Not on the FW Stonefex, b.c the FW isnt getting updated, they to busy working on HH.....

15k+ :Harlequin: 4k
12k+ SOLD (to many armies)
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

I had big hopes for leviqthqn when we had the salamander teroll that was original reported. Now we have the 6+ but only if we are close to synapse. I am not certain what I think about that. For smaller independent units like lictors, carnifexes, ravaners it will not happen.

But an extra 6+++ is better then always being in cover. The cover bonus we can get normally.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I was thinking of having my Biovores Leviathan, they will be -1 hit (malamthrope), in cover and 6+++, i dont care if they miss or not.

This will make it really punishing to shoot them (ideally). Idk if it would be the "best" but its something i'm thinking about.

I could take a Tyrant with a HVC back there too as my WL, that means the Leviathan Stratagem might be useful too, re-roll hits/wounds if they DS/Charge into me (tho i'll have a couple 10man gants as bubble wrap).

I really need to play test some things.

15k+ :Harlequin: 4k
12k+ SOLD (to many armies)
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 11:46:05


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
I had big hopes for leviqthqn when we had the salamander teroll that was original reported. Now we have the 6+ but only if we are close to synapse. I am not certain what I think about that. For smaller independent units like lictors, carnifexes, ravaners it will not happen.

But an extra 6+++ is better then always being in cover. The cover bonus we can get normally.

For monsters you generally won't. It's very hard in 8th to get a cover save for anything other than infantry. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ on a model without an invulnerable save is generally better than getting a 6+++. There's almost no AP-5 out there and very little AP-4.
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

While it is near impossible to get cover saves on MC's, you do have the possabilaty. Other nids do not have the posabillaty to get 6+++.

Solo MC's will not get the 6+++, så Jhormunghard is better there. This is asuming you never advance, or charge. Many of the MC's have assault weapons, but it is unlikly they will advance. They will charge though.

Depending on the wording, the hive tyrant/tyrant guard might be benefitted most for the 6+++. The tyrant has 3+ 4++ 6+++ 2+ tranfer to tyrant guard. If the guards then get 6+++ again, it would be awsome.

Perhaps even throw in the core rulebook 6+++ warlord trait for even better ods.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Niiai wrote:
If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

This is not true at all. Against AP0 fire, a 2+ save is about 67% more durable than a 3+ followed by a 6+++. Like, just work out the expected number of wounds and see for yourself. The FNP would have to be a 4+++ for the two to give the same result. A 2+ is better than a 3+/6+++ against AP-3 and worse, is the same against AP-4, and is worse against AP-5.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Niiai wrote:
I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Worst, its 4 wounds (4.17 actually) to a Rhino, it doesnt get re-rolls, compare to 10 wounds (9.75 actually)
Edit: Its 16pts cheaper tho....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 13:17:24


15k+ :Harlequin: 4k
12k+ SOLD (to many armies)
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





 Niiai wrote:
If the creature is within synapse, and within cover, there is from a math perspective no difference between a 2+ or 3+ followed by 6+++. Each instance of a 1 on the dice is 16,66% chance to save. (I am negating the posabilaty of a Ap-5.)

While it is near impossible to get cover saves on MC's, you do have the possabilaty. Other nids do not have the posabillaty to get 6+++.

Solo MC's will not get the 6+++, så Jhormunghard is better there. This is asuming you never advance, or charge. Many of the MC's have assault weapons, but it is unlikly they will advance. They will charge though.

Depending on the wording, the hive tyrant/tyrant guard might be benefitted most for the 6+++. The tyrant has 3+ 4++ 6+++ 2+ tranfer to tyrant guard. If the guards then get 6+++ again, it would be awsome.

Perhaps even throw in the core rulebook 6+++ warlord trait for even better ods.


Besides the other comments: Do not forget that the 6+++ has to be applied to every single damage point, instead of every wound. This can be benificial, but is often worse.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 13:27:30


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 13:41:35


15k+ :Harlequin: 4k
12k+ SOLD (to many armies)
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.



I doubt that you can drop the spore mines for free. Nothing states how many you could put in a unit, so you could potentially put 2x 9 Spore Mines for free? That seems to be too strong for me.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





Also CP should not be a problem, because you can easily field a brigade for about 720 points:

3x Neurotrophe 210
3x Lictor 135
6x RipperSw. 198
3x Spore mines 90
3x1 Biovores 75


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 13:51:39


15k+ :Harlequin: 4k
12k+ SOLD (to many armies)
5k
Beastmen 6500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

The spore mine stratagem is 3command points. Apparantly it is something you defore the game starts.

Spore mines probably stil have the do not cost points when you make them.

The last question is if the you are allowed to make a full 6 spore strong unit, or if you can only make them 3 strong.

It could be some first turn charges there. 10ish mortal wounds for 3 command points if you make the charge. Sounds alright to me.

Regarding ranged attacks: Many armies will probably take some form of:
Exochrine
Tyranofex
Hive Guards
Biovores

The last 2 has a stratagem that lets them shooy 2x. So yeah, you are gonne be seing those.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/31 14:06:41


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Astmeister wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.


In the games I play most Vehicles seem to have toughness 8. Dreads, tanks you name it.
The Exocrine gun wouldn't be strong enough.
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





 dan2026 wrote:
 Astmeister wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


I don't doubt your math.
But I doubt anything else in the book can accomplish the same task at range.


Well an Exocrine with Kronos would do 7.8 wounds average on a Rhino. The Tyrannofex is mostly better if you roll hot or the enemy has T8+.


In the games I play most Vehicles seem to have toughness 8. Dreads, tanks you name it.
The Exocrine gun wouldn't be strong enough.


AFAIK normal dreads have T7. The only normal tanks with T8 are Leman Russ and Land Raiders. The first type will be played quite often the latter not so much. But I agree that it is good to have something against T8. Knights and Wraith Knights also have T8.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

As someone potentially new to nids, I'm really loving the idea of running the 4-6 Dakkafex plan in Jormund, then doing a separate detachment w/ a Kronos Tyrant w/ wings or two.

Hell, just the idea of Kronos from a fluff standpoint is really cool. A whole fleet designed to combat the warp? As someone with probably close to 10k Daemons, I love it.

Just going to come down to exactly what else fills the remaining slots.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





The only issue I really have with Tyrannofexes is they really need a Synapse Creature to stay within 24" to keep them able to fire at full efficiency.

And I haven't quite worked out which Synapse Creature this should be.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Amishprn86 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I feel the Tyrannofex is going to be very important for anti tank.
3 + 3 S10 AP-3 D6 damage shots is hard to beat.
Especially combined with the reroll 1s trait.

Tyrannofex so hot right now.


6.82 wounds to Rhino

Honestly, worst than i thought.

Edit: This is without CP re-roll on Damage dice, Nids feels like they will eat through CP's now, so i'm doing all math without Re-roll CP's

One Example is the Sporefield "after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy" Spore Mines dont cost Reinforcement points, so this one seems like a must most games.


Important to note though that it does the same number of wounds to a baneblade or a russ being str 10.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
I was hoping for leviathan msu with carnifexes shooting heavy venom cannons to take out those high T targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Yeah i did the math, the stonefex inflicts almost 30% more damage on vehicles. Going by memory though, he was Str 14 AP3 D6 right?


How are the crusher claws doing in the comparison? Even with the handicap they are hitting on 4+ the turn they charge.


Worst, its 4 wounds (4.17 actually) to a Rhino, it doesnt get re-rolls, compare to 10 wounds (9.75 actually)
Edit: Its 16pts cheaper tho....


Screamer killer version does better thanks to the extra attack, +1 to hit and rerolling one (with the stratagem to reroll wounds). I get 8,5 out of the stonecrusher though, was he Str 14, WS4+ AP3 Dd6?

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





 dan2026 wrote:
Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?


If he is your Warlord, I would take TG to protect him. Otherwise it might not be necessary.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




 dan2026 wrote:
Would Tyrant Guard be essential for a walking shooty Tyrant?


Yes they would, in the infortunate situation where you fail catalyst or that IG gunline takes first turn, or if you want him still around by turn 3. The last point is not a necessity, by turn 3 with a full assault list the game is already set.
With TG and the right warlord trait he is still alive and kicking by turn 5, making him a bad target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/31 15:04:04


 
   
 
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