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"Check out all the Bolters in this list...its going to RULE the tournament scene!"

In several months time you'll see once people start playing around with their lists. Trust me tactical squads will be needed to be flexible. BA armies will have a low model count as it is, they'll need the extra firepower. Furious charging tacticals are still just as dangerous.

Are you serious?

Yup. Dead serious. As a templar player I can attest to the potential weaknesses of an army loaded with BP/ CCW. I find it funny how my hurricane bolters in my LRCs usually are getting the job done...yeah I guess mass bolter fire directed at targets doesn't work...lol. You can get the same effect with multiple tactical squads bearing down on a flank or a weak spot in the opponents army.

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles.

I'm not claiming them to win battles. I'm saying there is still a need for the range game with BA. Standoff shooting in volume is still key. 2 tactical squads driving up with a flamer + loads of bolters is going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Hanging back at the 18-24" range can help as well. The BA have plenty of close combat units that get the job done better than 5 man assault squads. You think IG is afraid of 5 guys spammed in 4 units? Try again. Razorbacks will be able to move and shoot better since they are fast, but at the end of the day you're primary move and shoot platforms are AV11. It doesn't take much to stop them from shooting. If they aren't shooting your army isn't doing much other than driving around.

HtH wins battles, HEAVY firepower wins battles.

Since when is massed bolter fire not considered heavy firepower? HTH doesn't win battles all the time. In fact being overly aggressive in HTH can be a liability sometimes. Again, as a BT player I can understand this. My army is predominantly HTH, but I also need the fire power of the humble bolter to get it done as well.

Bolters...kill a couple guys.

Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Are the librarian dreads allowed to swap their DCCW for the blood talons?

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

It has nothing do with any adherence to a particular vision and more to do with people constantly changing their DIY marines to the new codex based on the excuse that it "fits" better when we all know it's because they need to use the latest OMG flavor of the month. You don't need a calculator to do the math on this one...feth, you can do it on a damn abacus. Those people exist and in bigger numbers than you think. I saw it before in 3rd edition when BA came out as well. Suddenly Jimmy's Ultramarines got painted red because Jimmy didn't like the fact that his Ultramarines didn't get Furious Charge, etc. It's lame.

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Sure it is. Any purchases made support the game. I own 4 armies and I'm constantly adding to them. But since this codex came out I'm not going to suddenly stop playing my Templars...paint them red, and call them BA because they do everything my Templars do for cheaper points cost.

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately. At least people who own a marine force have a decent platform from which to 'counts-as' whatever chapter they like. Having more options is never a bad thing.

The problem with about 95% of the DIY chapter players I see is that they constantly flip-flop between what they deem to be the strongest marine codex and suddenly their DIY chapter changes. What once was a codex astartes chapter suddenly woke up one day and became a chapter with a defect, likes BP/CCW all of the sudden, and somehow acquired a metric sh!t ton of Jump packs...LOL. I find it funny that most of these so-called DIY chapters are also in a perpetual state of primer black or bare metal/plastic. Afterall, if you commit to a chapter color you are stuck right?

Could you guys stop vetching and actually stay on the topic of the codex?

I really cant buy what you're selling Captain.

Marine troop choices have generally been hard to use until now with the newer codexes. The better Vanilla lists that I've seen out there feature Vulkan for his melta/Flamer ability.

I havent noticed many awesome Lysander lists out there with him making bolter fire more effective.

People bring tacticals for more/free special/heavy weapons. Sure they fire their bolters....cause thats all they got. The fact is that people struggle to make tacticals useful in large amounts. They're resiliant and hard to kill, twice so after throwing them in a rhino, but destructive?...thanx to their bolters? No, not really. Lots of bolters firing can do some damage, but its not really anything that people are afraid of. ESPECIALLY now that FNP is becomming so common on the battlefeild. The list of things bolters are inneffective against is FAR greater than the things they work against nowadays. Fire bolters at even gaunts, if the tervigon throws FNP on them and half of that brood is out of line of sight for a cover save, you'll be lucky to kill two of the 30 with your precious bolter fire, now, if you've got a flamer in that unit....GREAT...maybe. You quoted cover as being a defense against the Las-Back list, cover works two ways pal, hordes get cover against your bolter fire too, then where are you at. Bolters dont exactly wound anything on a 2+.


Wolf Grey hunters can lay down some bolter fire...which is "nice" but the real damage seems to hit when you charge in against them and after rapid-firing they countercharge you with fists and CCW's. The bolter fire is simply something to do in the meantime.

Now you've got an obviously useful unit in a troops section of the BA list. Assault troops. Often (if not always) with FNP and/or Furious charge. Sometimes getting extra attacks from the Sanguinor or the Chapter Banner (or +2 from both?). These units are truly useful, the only thing tacticals truly have over them is free special/heavy weapons when you pick up a full squad. Bolters? You're better off firing bolt pistols into combat then charging in with your furious charge. Anything you cannot stomp in close combat...im highly doubtful that your bolters would "win the day" against such a target....

Charge 5 assault marines against a swarmlord? Suicide? Sure!
Rapid fire 5 tacticals agaisnt a swarmlord? Effective? Probably not.

Boltermarines > Assault Marines, I find this hard to beleive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dereksatkinson wrote:Could you guys stop vetching and actually stay on the topic of the codex?

And your post has any more to do with BA's....how?

Eh...blow it out your bolter....!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptKaruthors wrote:
The problem with about 95% of the DIY chapter players I see is that they constantly flip-flop between what they deem to be the strongest marine codex and suddenly their DIY chapter changes. What once was a codex astartes chapter suddenly woke up one day and became a chapter with a defect, likes BP/CCW all of the sudden, and somehow acquired a metric sh!t ton of Jump packs...LOL. I find it funny that most of these so-called DIY chapters are also in a perpetual state of primer black or bare metal/plastic. Afterall, if you commit to a chapter color you are stuck right?

I see no problem whatsoever with someone painting his own marine army and flipflopping between books to try different things keeping his "marine game" fresh and new to himself.

After all, who's toys are they anyway? Cannot he decide for himself how he wants to play with them?

What are you REALLY angry about Capt?

Deadshane1 wrote:And your post has any more to do with BA's....how?

My previous post asked if the librarian dread could take blood talons.

The discussion you guys are having belongs in the discussions forum, not news and rumors.

About tac marines, a key thing with them is knowing when to rapid fire and when to assault. They can do both well, but not excellent (that's why they are tactical marines). You don't try to out shoot the shooty units and assault the choppy units.

As for BA, has anyone heard or seen rumors about a model for this lander vehicle?

I really cant buy what you're selling Captain.

Fair enough. In a few months time we'll see what builds are doing the best in games.

Marine troop choices have generally been hard to use until now with the newer codexes. The better Vanilla lists that I've seen out there feature Vulkan for his melta/Flamer ability.

I don't agree with that at all, but I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I've seen some pretty killer marine lists that don't rely on Vulkan.

I havent noticed many awesome Lysander lists out there with him making bolter fire more effective.

Hmmm, you haven't seen Lysander/ Sternguard or Lysander/ terminators?

People bring tacticals for more/free special/heavy weapons. Sure they fire their bolters....cause thats all they got.

Of course, but they don't have to rush into combat either. They have options to trade fire. BA tacticals are great because I can drive 18" and get to where I need to get to go, OR I can trade fire.

The fact is that people struggle to make tacticals useful in large amounts. They're resiliant and hard to kill, twice so after throwing them in a rhino, but destructive?...thanx to their bolters?

It isn't about being destructive all the time. It's about being able to adapt quicker. If your BP/ CCW guys are stuck on the other side of the table, suddenly you are going to wish you had some type of shooting. How many turns of quality shooting are your razorbacks really going get?

No, not really. Lots of bolters firing can do some damage, but its not really anything that people are afraid of. ESPECIALLY now that FNP is becomming so common on the battlefeild.

Granted, but FNP can only get you so far. Eventually you'll lose the unit that grants it, or the unit with FNP will be reduced to combat ineffectiveness.

The list of things bolters are inneffective against is FAR greater than the things they work against nowadays. Fire bolters at even gaunts, if the tervigon throws FNP on them and half of that brood is out of line of sight for a cover save, you'll be lucky to kill two of the 30 with your precious bolter fire, now, if you've got a flamer in that unit....GREAT...maybe.

LOL. Yeah, because tyranid players everywhere are FNPing their gaunts all the time...LOL. If they did that I'd laugh and shoot the Tervigon instead.

You quoted cover as being a defense against the Las-Back list, cover works two ways pal, hordes get cover against your bolter fire too, then where are you at.

Hahahaha. With the exception of Orks, most hordes are T3. Regardless of cover saves, I'm still landing more wounds than the odd blast template. Additionally, most tactical squads are also packing flamers....looks to me like I'm still doing more wounds against weak toughness armies. Hell even against SOB it hurts...because at the end of the day while they have a 3+ save they are still toughness 3.

Bolters dont exactly wound anything on a 2+.

Nope but 3+ is just as good in most cases. Sternguard can, but then we are not talking about a scoring unit in the BAs case, so I don't really factor them in. Vanilla marines on the other hand can make them scoring. But lets just stick to BA tacticals.

Wolf Grey hunters can lay down some bolter fire...which is "nice" but the real damage seems to hit when you charge in against them and after rapid-firing they countercharge you with fists and CCW's. The bolter fire is simply something to do in the meantime.

Agreed, but most people will just continue to shoot them and not charge them. Why would I give them a benefit like that when I can simply eliminate them in the shooting phase? Unless you have wittled GH down, charging them is a waste. Shooting them to combat ineffectiveness seems like a better alternative to me.

Now you've got an obviously useful unit in a troops section of the BA list. Assault troops. Often (if not always) with FNP and/or Furious charge. Sometimes getting extra attacks from the Sanguinor or the Chapter Banner (or +2 from both?).

But 5 guys per squad doesn't give me a lot of hope to grind it out with some of the armies I've been seeing on the tables as of late. +2 attacks? So what? You've spent a ton of points on a nifty ability that might not even used if they have to walk. It's not like what they are riding in isn't easy to kill quickly. 25 marines in a list doesn't scare me at all.

These units are truly useful, the only thing tacticals truly have over them is free special/heavy weapons when you pick up a full squad. Bolters? You're better off firing bolt pistols into combat then charging in with your furious charge.

Um how is that possible when I disembark after I moved already unless I'm now taking landraiders? Afterall, your precious assault marines are going to have to sit a turn before they get out and with no firepoints on a razorback...it's not like they'll be doing anything other than praying their ride doesn't blow up. Now tacticals, can get out, shoot a round of good shooting, then follow up with a charge in the next turn. I'm not saying you eliminate assault units completely from a BA list, because they definitely have uses as well as other units that are far better at assault than basic assault marines.

Anything you cannot stomp in close combat...im highly doubtful that your bolters would "win the day" against such a target....

Against a several 5 man squads? Really? I don't agree.

Charge 5 assault marines against a swarmlord? Suicide? Sure!
Rapid fire 5 tacticals agaisnt a swarmlord? Effective? Probably not.

5 tacticals shooting at 24" gives me 3 turns of shooting a swarmlord. So yes in a vacuum I'll probably do more damage to the swarmlord in the long run.

Boltermarines > Assault Marines, I find this hard to beleive.

I guess believe what you want. I'm not going to convince you. We'll see in a few months time when people actively start using BA in tournaments, etc. My guess is the that strongest builds will include tactical squads to some degree.

pdawg517 wrote:About tac marines, a key thing with them is knowing when to rapid fire and when to assault. They can do both well, but not excellent (that's why they are tactical marines). You don't try to out shoot the shooty units and assault the choppy units.

As for BA, has anyone heard or seen rumors about a model for this lander vehicle?

No news that I've heard about the lander (Stormraven Gunship). There's the new tank supplement in a few months, which will have new plastic models, but the specific ones haven't been announced yet. I wouldn't expect a model for at least a few months though (unless FW have been working on one, but nothing's been announced there either).

If you really want to use a Stormraven, either scratch-build/kit-bash one or use 'counts-as' (with your opponents permission though). I'd personally be fine with someone using a Valkyrie to represent it, but some people will have issues as the Stormraven is likely meant to be a lot bigger.

As for the tactical marine vs assault marine debate, I'll be running a jump-pack heavy list, which should prove hilarious when my entire army Mishaps For larger games I still run some Tactical Marines though for their versatility- fast Rhinos and Razorbacks are going to be really useful for storming objectives, or even rushing to defend one that's being contested.

I see no problem whatsoever with someone painting his own marine army and flipflopping between books to try different things keeping his "marine game" fresh and new to himself.

Hey as long as you are okay with playing vs. unpainted grey/black primed marines all the time who am I to say anything, right?

After all, who's toys are they anyway? Cannot he decide for himself how he wants to play with them?

Again, if you are cool with playing against unfinished armies all the time more power to you.

What are you REALLY angry about Capt?

If I told people the world would cease to exist...LOL.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:Really? Usually enough bolter fire can make your 5 man squads disappear pretty fast...LOL. AV11 can't save them forever.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

It's called bust the tank THEN take out the 5-man Squad with bolter fire.

A good player can plan out his target priority and order of fire to pull that off easily enough.

Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

Actually, unless 40k has changed the way basic weeapons affect Vehicles, I'm pretty sure AV11 *can* save 5-man squads from massed enemy Bolter fire. How are you Glancing or Penetrating AV11 with your awesome S4 Bolters? Rolling d8s for AP?

It's called ranged shooting from other aspects of a list to bust tanks. Last time I checked, AV11 isn't all that difficult to penetrate. There is a lot of armies out there that excel at it even.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

No actually, I'm talking about bolters vs. infantry units. I think anybody that plays this game and has half a brain realizes the tanks go boom first, then you shoot the guys inside...OR wait until they charge a disposable unit with their limited-in-number-5-man-scoring-units and then watch them die once they wipe out a pointless unit. 4 to 5 units of 5 guys can't eat the attrition rate that other armies can. Again only 25 marines on the table doesn't scare me.

dereksatkinson wrote:Are the librarian dreads allowed to swap their DCCW for the blood talons?

No.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except that Karuthers is talking about Bolters and Bolters and Bolters against AV11.

Except no he is not. He said you still need a strong mid-range capability because AV11 fire platforms are not exactly difficult to silence. This is the usual 40k forum debate, with one guy trying to share lessons learned from his games and other guys going "lulz, that's not what the rants we read on the internetz and then parrot on other forums say." I'll give you a hint: the folks making sweeping proclamations about how an army whose book hasn't even been published yet "should be played" tend to fall into the second camp.

Neith wrote: There's the new tank supplement in a few months, which will have new plastic models, but the specific ones haven't been announced yet. I wouldn't expect a model for at least a few months though (unless FW have been working on one, but nothing's been announced there either).

Last I heard there will be recut LR battle tanks and SM predators, and new kits for the ork warbuggy/wartrack/skorcha and Eldar Prism. A raven is unlikely Since we haven't seen illustrations for it, much less greens or initial sculpts.

Terminus wrote:
Last I heard there will be recut LR battle tanks and SM predators, and new kits for the ork warbuggy/wartrack/skorcha and Eldar Prism. A raven is unlikely Since we haven't seen illustrations for it, much less greens or initial sculpts.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for a Stormraven kit- while Spearhead would be an ideal time to release it, I think honestly that if it ever does get a model it'll be alongside a new C:SM (and the Stormraven will be added to vanilla Marines). I'm terrible at scratchbuilding so if there isn't a GW/FW kit, I'll just do without unless I feel really adventurous

Hmmm, you haven't seen Lysander/ Sternguard or Lysander/ terminators?

I thought we were talking about tacticals, not storm bolters or special ammo troops (which effectively have different guns).

[LOL. Yeah, because tyranid players everywhere are FNPing their gaunts all the time...LOL. If they did that I'd laugh and shoot the Tervigon instead.

I don't think the tervigon is worried about your scary bolters. It takes three to get past its save, it takes six to make it take a wound, and it takes 3 shots to hit two times. A full tac squad double tapping with bolters has less than a 50% chance of causing a single wound. You would have to do that six times in a row.

It isn't about being destructive all the time. It's about being able to adapt quicker. If your BP/ CCW guys are stuck on the other side of the table, suddenly you are going to wish you had some type of shooting. How many turns of quality shooting are your razorbacks really going get?

How many turns are your footslogging bolter dudes going to get in the same situation? If they have to walk to their objective they'll likely waste 2 there, get two turns of heavy weapons fire (And maybe 7 bolter shots a turn at 24" if unmolested) and probably end up either decimated, gone to ground, or assaulted for two turns of the game. I run a tactical heavy vanilla marine list and thats about the situation I tend to find myself in, typically I'm better off assaulting with shrikes fleet then I am double tapping against most targets.

ahahaha. With the exception of Orks, most hordes are T3. Regardless of cover saves, I'm still landing more wounds than the odd blast template. Additionally, most tactical squads are also packing flamers....looks to me like I'm still doing more wounds against weak toughness armies. Hell even against SOB it hurts...because at the end of the day while they have a 3+ save they are still toughness 3.

Orks are t4, tyranids are t3, and guard are AV12-14. Your bolters aren't going to do much to a guard swarm sitting in its own deployment zone and outgunning you.

Um how is that possible when I disembark after I moved already unless I'm now taking landraiders? Afterall, your precious assault marines are going to have to sit a turn before they get out and with no firepoints on a razorback...it's not like they'll be doing anything other than praying their ride doesn't blow up. Now tacticals, can get out, shoot a round of good shooting, then follow up with a charge in the next turn. I'm not saying you eliminate assault units completely from a BA list, because they definitely have uses as well as other units that are far better at assault than basic assault marines.

Define good. With one special, one heavy, and one pistol or combi on the sergant you're left with 7 bolters vs the 7 bolt pistols the assaults have. You get 7 more shots for one single round. 7 shots, 4 2/3 hits 2 1/3 wounds against orks extra. Congradulations you just killed a whole 15 extra points of orks, or more likely zero extra points of marines as those 7 shots are less than half likely to kill a MEQ.

Dems good shootin'!

5 tacticals shooting at 24" gives me 3 turns of shooting a swarmlord. So yes in a vacuum I'll probably do more damage to the swarmlord in the long run.

Not really, with your extra 7/7/and 12 shots you'll hit 16 and 2/3rd times. Wound 2.6 times. And are still less than half likely to break through it's basic save. The assaults extra attacks aren't doing much better really, but they hold better in combat resolution against anything assaulting them. The cheap heavy weapon would tilt it towards tacs, though im confused as to why you would try to kill it with tacs anyway.

I guess believe what you want. I'm not going to convince you. We'll see in a few months time when people actively start using BA in tournaments, etc. My guess is the that strongest builds will include tactical squads to some degree.

They have different uses in different lists. The impetus to switch came I believe from the cheaper vehicle options making them more attractive in minimum squad sizes (where they basically get comped a razorback when in the same situation the tacticals would have to be 10 man squads to get a similar and less mobile heavy weapon).

It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

The only real use I've ever had for bolters is in dealing with the absolute dregs of an enemy unit that has 2-3 models left in cover.

BA Tacticals may serve the same role as IG PIS in sitting at the very back of the table on objectives in a rhino, but unless they can get a heavy weapon in 5 man squads I kind of doubt that they'll see much use in this application.

I think the real hair splitter is that Assault Marines with no jump packs in a transport are net cheaper than Tacticals in a transport. Whether you regard Tacs as better than AsstM or vice versa, I doubt anybody cares; just like with Marine lists, the focus is going to be on getting in as many Elite/Heavy/Fast choices as possible around a resilient scoring troops. AsstM's fit that role better simply because they're cheaper.

Hrmm i love the interwebz.

By going with most people around here vanilla Marines HAVE to suck hard.

Because all i get are bolter marines. OMG, i will lose, i cannot win, i do not have Assault marines as troops QQ.

Lol.

I am playing CSM mostly, but i have already smashed Nids and Space Wolves without giving the enemy a single killpoint, because of trusty S4 fire. Once noise marines and once the inferno rounds type. I try to run massed CSM because theyre cheaper than the special CC squads. BA will be no different.



But this special army list of 25 marines that are scoring? Dont make me laugh, i normally swamp the field with 40+. I once managed to put 60+ CSM on the field when playing defensive footsloggers. It works.

sourclams wrote:The only real use I've ever had for bolters is in dealing with the absolute dregs of an enemy unit that has 2-3 models left in cover.

BA Tacticals may serve the same role as IG PIS in sitting at the very back of the table on objectives in a rhino, but unless they can get a heavy weapon in 5 man squads I kind of doubt that they'll see much use in this application.

I think the real hair splitter is that Assault Marines with no jump packs in a transport are net cheaper than Tacticals in a transport. Whether you regard Tacs as better than AsstM or vice versa, I doubt anybody cares; just like with Marine lists, the focus is going to be on getting in as many Elite/Heavy/Fast choices as possible around a resilient scoring troops. AsstM's fit that role better simply because they're cheaper.

The funny thing is I think I may switch to the BA for my space sharks. Vanilla marines haven't been doing it for me (too poor in assault and no good elite assault troops other than assault termies which I find cheesy) and I have a marine army with 40 tacticals. My composition will change little in all likelyhood, simply switching out fleet (from shrike) to maybe furious charge sometimes. I'll have all those real important bolters though my experience with them leads me to think that while they're nice I'll probably just end up using them in the same way as before (ablative squads and concentrated mass saturation on troops weakened by the big guns). Any squad that gains furious charge will likely never bother to double tap its bolters (short of dumping out of the rhino).

So... about Blood Angels...

I thought we were talking about tacticals, not storm bolters or special ammo troops (which effectively have different guns).

Nice way of picking a sentence out of context Shummy. That sentence was in reference to the hypothetical application of decent midrange bolter delivery. A bolter is a bolter is a bolter...regardless of source. I'm talking midrange shooting. Tacticals specifically. Something assault squads lack. In the case of C:SM Sternguard can score so qualify. However, I even mentioned later that we just focus the discussion on BA tacticals.

I don't think the tervigon is worried about your scary bolters. It takes three to get past its save, it takes six to make it take a wound, and it takes 3 shots to hit two times. A full tac squad double tapping with bolters has less than a 50% chance of causing a single wound. You would have to do that six times in a row.

No, but he should be worried about the other things that a tactical squad can carry...or better yet the fact that I can standoff with this unit at 24" and chip away it's wounds with bolters + heavy weapons. All these examples of "in a vacuum" situations is amusing. I think any sane marine player will know when to use his tactical squads best. They simply have more flexibility than the BP/CCW squads. Trust me, I play an army full of BP/CCW squads. Sometimes your targets of opportunity are limited when your shooting is only a pistol with a range of 12" and your BP/CCW squads can't always win when more shooting is required from your army.

How many turns are your footslogging bolter dudes going to get in the same situation? If they have to walk to their objective they'll likely waste 2 there, get two turns of heavy weapons fire (And maybe 7 bolter shots a turn at 24" if unmolested) and probably end up either decimated, gone to ground, or assaulted for two turns of the game. I run a tactical heavy vanilla marine list and thats about the situation I tend to find myself in, typically I'm better off assaulting with shrikes fleet then I am double tapping against most targets.

Who's footslogging their BA tacticals? Most marine players I see running tacticals have them mounted in some capacity (in the case of BA, most assuredly you'll see them in rhinos). If the option exists you combat squad, mount 5 and the other 5 camp and shoot heavy weapons. That's where the flexibility comes in. I have options. What options do I truly have with 5 man BP/CCW squads other than move into a position to
assault? With BA tacticals I can do both.

Orks are t4, tyranids are t3, and guard are AV12-14. Your bolters aren't going to do much to a guard swarm sitting in its own deployment zone and outgunning you.

Remember that an army works together. Busting transports is usually done by other elements of your army. I would hope that a sensible person realizes that tacticals can't do it all on their own. Like I've maintained from the beginning, spamming assault squads in a BA army isn't going to be as effective as everyone claims. We'll wait and see how it turns out in the coming months. Additionally, the spam army like that reeks of a lack of originality/ creativity and will surely pay for it on the table top. If it was so good, why aren't Templars or Space Wolves doing it? Both have the ability to do it.

Define good.

Define the situation? Seriously is this really that tough? You pick your battles where it gives you the best advantage...thus you get as close to "good" as you can get. You can't just cherry pick.

With one special, one heavy, and one pistol or combi on the sergant you're left with 7 bolters vs the 7 bolt pistols the assaults have. You get 7 more shots for one single round. 7 shots, 4 2/3 hits 2 1/3 wounds against orks extra. Congradulations you just killed a whole 15 extra points of orks, or more likely zero extra points of marines as those 7 shots are less than half likely to kill a MEQ.

What about the tact squad with a flamer and a combi-flamer? Sounds to me like more dead orks and marines. If I pit my tactical squad vs. a 5 man assault squad like that...guess who's in trouble? As for the Orks? I'll take my chances with 14 bolter shots, and lots of template hits with multiple flamers on a unit. Charging them is only asking for a drawn out combat that I may not win. In the same situation how well do you really think a 5 man assault squad is going to fair vs. an ork mob? You can't eat that kind of attrition, son.

Not really, with your extra 7/7/and 12 shots you'll hit 16 and 2/3rd times. Wound 2.6 times. And are still less than half likely to break through it's basic save.

Well, 2.6 times is better than the other alternative. Additionally with combined fire from say another tactical squad you could effectively kill it before it reached you.

The assaults extra attacks aren't doing much better really, but they hold better in combat resolution against anything assaulting them.

5 assault marines attacking a swarmlord may never even get a chance to kill it, before he kills the entire squad.

The cheap heavy weapon would tilt it towards tacs, though im confused as to why you would try to kill it with tacs anyway.

Thus the inherent flexibility you get with the tactical marine. Assault marines are good at one thing...assaulting. Why take 5 man squads of them.. spam it, and think you are on to a winning strategy with that? I didn't give the example with a swarmlord...I'm merely responding to what another poster gave as an example. Obviously you'd shoot it with something else. Again it doesn't take a genius to know when to get the tacticals involved. That being said, at least at the midrange level they can get involved...and that is my point.

They have different uses in different lists.

Agreed.

The impetus to switch came I believe from the cheaper vehicle options making them more attractive in minimum squad sizes (where they basically get comped a razorback when in the same situation the tacticals would have to be 10 man squads to get a similar and less mobile heavy weapon).

Oh I understand that, but my point is does that make the army better/ more flexibile? So they get comped a transport...big deal. You still have a gun platform that is on AV11, and only 25 marines. Wouldn't a better approach be to go 50/50 split between tacticals and assault squads? Like I said, I can't convince anyone, so lets just wait and see what the coming months bring with list builds based on actual playtesting rather than design lists out of thin air with no practical application in the real world...i.e. on the table top.

Only a non-marine player can appreciate the bolter, to marine players it is just as useless as a lasgun. Captain you are fighting a losing battle, your not going to be able to convince marine players that a newer option is not as good as an old one.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

And clearly you're delusional. How hard is it do gain a save when you need it, but also move your own models into position to take it away from your opponent when required? It's not that hard JHDD.

I play templars, so I think you can figure out how a list goes. Off the top of my head a general list would be: Command squad with/ BP, CCW, FC, Apothecary, SGt with PF, Marshal with 2 LCs mounted in crusader. Crusader squad with BP/ CCW mounted in crusader. Chump with Accept the Challenge. This is my core. Depending on game size, I'll usually have 1-2 more crusader squads. One with all bolters, one with BP/CCW either mounted in rhinos or pods depending on my mood at the time. Season that with various other units in the list and that's pretty much my Templars. More often than not, the crusaders firepower do most of the heavy lifting since my army is predominently focused on CC. However, the bolters are working for me here since I have options to sit at midrange and shoot with my bolter units if I need to. I don't get the fancy fast rhinos...if I did, I'd be putting bolters on more of my guys since moving 18" and jumping out to shoot would be awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CKO wrote:Only a non-marine player can appreciate the bolter, to marine players it is just as useless as a lasgun. Captain you are fighting a losing battle, your not going to be able to convince marine players that a newer option is not as good as an old one.

Of course. I'm not really trying to convince anyone anymore. This is an internet forum and all. We'll see in a few months time which way the proverbial pendulum swings in regards to BA list builds. My bet is the better builds will include tacticals. As for the boring assault marine spam list...my IG say: bring it suckers...LOL.

Nice way of picking a sentence out of context Shummy. That sentence was in reference to the hypothetical application of decent midrange bolter delivery. A bolter is a bolter is a bolter...regardless of source. I'm talking midrange shooting. Tacticals specifically. Something assault squads lack. In the case of C:SM Sternguard can score so qualify. However, I even mentioned later that we just focus the discussion on BA tacticals.

Sternguard do not qualify, they are 35% more costly than the average marine, have twice the attacks in close combat, better leadership average, and have special ammo which changes their bolter profile. They are different in virtually every way.

No, but he should be worried about the other things that a tactical squad can carry...or better yet the fact that I can standoff with this unit at 24" and chip away it's wounds with bolters + heavy weapons. All these examples of "in a vacuum" situations is amusing. I think any sane marine player will know when to use his tactical squads best.

Wasn't this entire argument based on the fact that the assault troops could get heavy weapon packing transports and still cost the same?

They simply have more flexibility than the BP/CCW squads. Trust me, I play an army full of BP/CCW squads. Sometimes your targets of opportunity are limited when your shooting is only a pistol with a range of 12" and your BP/CCW squads can't always win when more shooting is required from your army.

Yes, and I play an army with 40 tactical marines. 170-245 points is a damn poor way to get one heavy weapon and a couple of bolters that likely won't do much over the course of the game.

What about the tact squad with a flamer and a combi-flamer? Sounds to me like more dead orks and marines.

I figured that since the assault squad can get THE SAME ASSAULT WEAPONS that that was a moot point.

pit my tactical squad vs. a 5 man assault squad like that...guess who's in trouble?

In this hypothetical situation I just wouldn't get out of my transport, let you kill it in close combat (maybe), then assault you with the assault marines. Though since, as we've covered, both squads can have the same special weapons, it's a stupid comparison.

Charging them is only asking for a drawn out combat that I may not win. In the same situation how well do you really think a 5 man assault squad is going to fair vs. an ork mob? You can't eat that kind of attrition, son.

As well as a tactical squad will in the same situation. You don't beat an ork mob by throwing minimum sized troops that you need to score at them.

Who's footslogging their BA tacticals? Most marine players I see running tacticals have them mounted in some capacity (in the case of BA, most assuredly you'll see them in rhinos). If the option exists you combat squad, mount 5 and the other 5 camp and shoot heavy weapons. That's where the flexibility comes in. I have options. What options do I truly have with 5 man BP/CCW squads other than move into a position to
assault? With BA tacticals I can do both.

Well since the BA assault squads get their transport nice and cheap they have the same mobility and better firepower, while maintaining the ability to defend themselves in combat.

Well, 2.6 times is better than the other alternative. Additionally with combined fire from say another tactical squad you could effectively kill it before it reached you.

Causing 5.2 wounds on something with a 3+ save means you're probably going to cause maybe 2 wounds, and thats if it doesn't use its psychic power to give you a BS of 1. Why are we doing this comparison, it's not something that would really ever come up (unless you're about to lose).

5 assault marines attacking a swarmlord may never even get a chance to kill it, before he kills the entire squad.

Yeah. We know. It's the swarmlord, it could walk through 30 assault or tactical marines without much issue.

Thus the inherent flexibility you get with the tactical marine. Assault marines are good at one thing...assaulting.

And being more cost effective with their transport (which gives them a mobile heavy weapon) while having more special weapons (better for clearing out entrenched squads) and the ability to assault better (vs having a 200 point unit stand still and fire one heavy weapon a turn). The same bad comparison could be used with vanilla marines and a leman russ (assault marines would be great for popping it in a cost effective manner, and the vanilla tacs would just have their gun bounce off for 6 turns).

Oh I understand that, but my point is does that make the army better/ more flexibile?

Flexibility is great, but tactical marines pay too much for it. They are worse in close combat than orks/kroot/space wolves/chaos marines/assault marines/etc (for nearly 3 times the cost of orks or twice for kroot), worse at shooting than orks/ig/tau (for 3/4/1.6 times the cost respectively). The tactical marines are rugged, but expensive weak and poor at shooting. Theres a reason people are quick to leave them in transports or switch them for other things.

So they get comped a transport...big deal. You still have a gun platform that is on AV11, and only 25 marines.

Vs what? 25 tacticals with 2 heavy weapons and 2 transports? Congradulations, you just cut down your own firepower. 10 tacticals with 1 heavy and 15 assaults? On par with firepower but less mobile with worse firepower.

Like I said, I can't convince anyone, so lets just wait and see what the coming months bring with list builds based on actual playtesting rather than design lists out of thin air with no practical application in the real world...i.e. on the table top.

I suspect the blood angels will spend the bare minimum required on troops just like vanilla marines. At those low low prices the assault troops just happen to be better at it by being more mobile in their comped transports with a better ability to support the force due to more mobile heavy weapon supports and a better ability to take enemy objectives.

5 man assault squad should not have bolters...you need a flamer for them-maybe 2.
How many points is a flamer in a 5 man assault squad? If in isn't 25...then take it...and stop attacking that swarmlord!

The funny thing is I think I may switch to the BA for my space sharks.

LOL. You basically set the example I gave about a page or two ago. Congrats. Your codex chapter somehow sprouts BP/CCWs, cheap access to FNP/ FC. Because somehow your chapter doesn't cut the mustard in this grimdark millenium. Awesome. Is your army at least painted?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's almost like he plays with completely different Bolters than the rest of us.

And clearly, he has magical one-way cover on his board, allowing for him shoot Bolters at troops in the open, while guaranteeing cover saves against enemy Plasma & Ordnance.

I want to see a picture of Karutor's army, along with a list.

And clearly you're delusional.

How hard is it do gain a save when you need it, but also move your own models into position to take it away from your opponent when required? It's not that hard JHDD.

Excuse me? Did I start calling you names? No? Then don't you start.

In your examples, you dismissed shooting at Tacs saying that they'll have cover, but ignore cover when shooting with your uber Bolters. Be consistent. Or, if your argument hinges on opponents not being able to move their own models in position to take it away when required, then what are you trying to say? That you can beat lower-skill opponents? That's a given.

The point that I'm holding you to is how you said that Bolters can clear enemy 5-man teams, and that AV11 can't save them. That's clearly false, because enemy MEQs in AV11 are going to laugh at your vaunted Bolters all day long.

Looking at the math, to kill 5 SMs (in cover, of course) with Bolters, you'll need 45 shots (30 hit, 15 wound, 5 die). That's more than 2 full Bolter squads double-tapping at close range. If you can get 20 Tacticals within 12" of the enemy, you can get a slightly smaller number of AMs in position to simply wipe the unit in HtH.

Chill out Capt, dont make fun of GW's best customers. We know that you are loyal to the end with your BT and will most likely be rewarded with 2-3 new landraiders, but you cant get mad at people for wanting to play with the newest rules.

However I do agree with you that the DIY excuse is a load of crap.