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Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with the 40K community today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

I completely agree.

Placing a premium on min/maxing

etc., etc.

I completely agree.

Sounds like the tourney set should will love it though...

And all the hambeasts with DIY chapters. Suddenly this new book "fits" better with their "homebrew" chapter...LOL...that is until the new Black Templars codex comes out and then that one will "Fit" better because rhinos will be so cheap that they actually can make a second rhino for free...LOL

i'm not seeing the problem here. assault squads in rhinos and tactical squads fill two different roles on the battlefield. one is cheap scoring close combat while the other is close range firepower. in fact, i plan on using one to two of each depending on the army i'm facing. the fact that they're exactly !! the same point cost makes them easy to flip in between. 10 tacticals with a flamer and multimelta and rhino cost the same as 10 assault marines (without jump packs) with a flamer, melta (not multimelta), and rhino. i'm not saying that the above is an optimal loadout but just that there really is no difference in cost between the two. each has its niche to fill.

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Which all gets bounced 50% of the time with cover saves. I'd rather do more wounds than rely on a scatter die. Don't get me wrong, those weapons have their place, but not for digging units out of cover. Driving 18" to deliver Rapid Fire death is awesome. Man I wish my SOB's could do that. Charge in the following turn and clean up the mess. Rhino rush with bolters ala 3rd edition is going to make a comeback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:i'm not seeing the problem here. assault squads in rhinos and tactical squads fill two different roles on the battlefield. one is cheap scoring close combat while the other is close range firepower. in fact, i plan on using one to two of each depending on the army i'm facing. the fact that they're exactly !! the same point cost makes them easy to flip in between. 10 tacticals with a flamer and multimelta and rhino cost the same as 10 assault marines (without jump packs) with a flamer, melta (not multimelta), and rhino. i'm not saying that the above is an optimal loadout but just that there really is no difference in cost between the two. each has its niche to fill.

Agreed. Assault marines will have a place, but not the carbon copy spam I've been hearing about. At some point, bolters are needed. That's all I'm saying.

jbunny wrote:Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

No you don't. The IC has to be moved first only during pile in moves, not during the initial assault move.

And I have to laugh at people that discount the bolter. These are usually the same folks deriding the Tactical Squad as garbage. *there really needs to be an eyeroll orkmoticon*

jbunny wrote:
Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

This is only true for the defenders react move after being assaulted. Most of the time you do want your IC to be the first to assault so you can get him stuck in since he has to be in base contact to fight, but there is no requirement in the rules for them to do so.

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

So do you think the librarian is the way?100 points for 25 jump pack? to have the psychic powers?Or what other hq?no special characters...

Ps in an assault squad flamers are 10 points(maybe 5)...why don't take just meltaguns???

Why not use 9 RAS w/SHP in a rhino and just don't get your shp out when you disembark? Yes I know that takes away 1 Special weapon but honestly just upgrade the sargent with an infernous pistol.

By the way I really don't think that the BA are OTT in any way. I think the Dante/Corbolo 24" bubble of doom was way more powerful.

Basically there are going to be several strong builds.

G

What what what what
no flesh tearers picture
no more green blow fly????

I think my sanguinary guard spam is going to sweep ard boyz this year.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

And boring...lacking any soul at all. At the end of the day, once people start playing they are going realize they need bolters in their lists. The assault marine/ vehicle discount is a fad.

"Check out all the Bolters in this list...its going to RULE the tournament scene!"

Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. HtH wins battles, HEAVY firepower wins battles. Bolters...kill a couple guys.

A fad? lolz!


I agree with DeadShane - BAs are going to have a heck of a strong gun line and the only bolters you'll see will be on death company, heh.

Deadshane1 wrote:Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. Hurricane Bolters win battles, lots and lots of Hurricane Bolters wins battles. Bolters...make good spare parts.

Fixed.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with the 40K community today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

I completely agree.

Placing a premium on min/maxing

etc., etc.

I completely agree.

Sounds like the tourney set should will love it though...

And all the hambeasts with DIY chapters. Suddenly this new book "fits" better with their "homebrew" chapter...LOL...that is until the new Black Templars codex comes out and then that one will "Fit" better because rhinos will be so cheap that they actually can make a second rhino for free...LOL

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately. At least people who own a marine force have a decent platform from which to 'counts-as' whatever chapter they like. Having more options is never a bad thing.

Breotan wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Are you serious?

I'm sorry, bolters do NOT win battles. Hurricane Bolters win battles, lots and lots of Hurricane Bolters wins battles. Bolters...make good spare parts.

Fixed.

Ahem....actually, volume firepower still wins battles (and yes, this does include bolters), HtH just cleans up the rest....(we are talking about astartes here, not cheap-throw-away horde-troop units like orks or bugs yes?)

Also, since there seems to be some weird sort of consensus that BA's are not going to need bolters or said firepower, let us remember that they are NOT a cheap horde army, and that probably due to their points-cost, there will be a substantially lighter model count when opposing the other army in general....

We will all see how the various lists will play, but spouting that they do not need small arms is rather silly....one would think that as "veteran" as this community has been over the years that you all would not have forgotten the basic tenets of the game yes?

I believe CapnK is on the money here.....one will still need the base-line volume-firepower units to support those tricky assault units down the field.

Balance seems to win more than an over-indulgence of one specific form of fighting.....just my two cents...carry on!

6 shooting rounds of combat in a game, possible 11 rounds of close combat.. (in a 6 turn game - do your own math for longer or shorter games )

In order to get it done only in the shooting phase you need a HECK of a lot of shooting like the guard.

BAs can do heavy lifting in both of those phases but the strengths and the volume of fire are coming from las cannons, plasma guns, melta guns/pistols and flame templates.. NOT bolters.

jbunny wrote:

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

Nope, the person that was assaulted has to move the ICs in their unit first, the assaulter is free to move the rest of his unit before the IC. Though hiding them in a vehicle is still likely the better of ideas.

...And I am quite late to the party in saying this so I shall wander off now.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Which all gets bounced 50% of the time with cover saves. I'd rather do more wounds than rely on a scatter die. Don't get me wrong, those weapons have their place, but not for digging units out of cover.

You know, not everything on the other side of the board is always in cover. Sometimes there are other things to shoot. And dislodging units in cover? Probably best done by fast-moving Assault Troops with grenades. I wonder what armies have that capability...

There is so much epeen waving going on in this thread, it's ridiculous.

Just remember the old adage, folks, the guy screaming loudest has the least to say.

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Wow....snarky much...? Don't think I ever read that in any of the above-mentioned posts.....

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Do tell.....please define this great decline of 40k Civilization...? Now who's crying "Wah, people aren't supporting the game like I do.....wah"?

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately.

Oh, so now it's GW's fault for this stagnation....? Wait, what....?

Having more options is never a bad thing.

And this is what makes the game what it is.....

Now, for a true rebuttal; I believe what some posters are stating is that some players find it easy to switch from the next "hot-item" in newly released marine codexes, while there are some players who like a specific chapter and stick with it through thick and thin. Some people call the former "band-wagoneers", always jumping on the latest and greatest......and that's fine with me, however, there are some of us old-schoolers/veterans that stick with our chosen chapter regardless of what the new hype is.

Now personally, I don't care about any of that, maybe some players cannot afford to build an entirely new marine army from the ground up like some of us veterans can or maybe there are other issues at stake.....regardless, it matters not to me. However, it does seem rather obvious that those that do jump on the wagon, changing their current marines to the latest inception, maybe are just trying to get an edge....(like that's really an edge).

I've been playing since '94 in the heady days of 2nd edition (just so you all know where I'm comming from) and I've seen lots of things in this hobby/game. GW isn't stagnating anything; their models are getting better and the quality of the product appears to be at an all-time-high. I'll keep buying if things continue, but trust me, I don't willingly lap up the GW kool-aid either.....players can do what they want, however, I don't think any amount of sticking to one's chosen marine army is stagnating the game. As long as they keep releasing decent models, people will always buy.

I don't mind DIY chapters either because I think that adds to the game personally, and it is a breath of fresh air; that being said I admire chapter "loyalty" as well. My Ultramarines just keep getting bigger.....especially for those Apoc games, it's great, however, like I said before, if they keep kicking out decent product, I'm going to buy it, but I'm still running Ultras even though I think that all of the other chapters are cool too, no matter how tempting they are....if anything, like some have already mentioned, Raven Guard would fit nicely as a "counts-as" army for this codex.....and I'm actually thinking of building one myself.

So, pardon the rant all, I can see both sides of this deal.....though I'm sure there are valid considerations for both view-points.
Please forgive me for the counter-snarkyness....lol! I couldn't resist, it was nothing personal.....

ThirdUltra wrote:

"Wah, people don't adhere to MY vision of playing, that's what's wrong with the game!"

Wow....snarky much...? Don't think I ever read that in any of the above-mentioned posts.....

Get over yourselves. Being "loyal" to one particular faction is what's causing the game to stagnate. Buying one main force, then slowly adding things is not supporting the game at all.

Do tell.....please define this great decline of 40k Civilization...? Now who's crying "Wah, people aren't supporting the game like I do.....wah"?

Much how GW themselves is stagnating the game by releasing nothing but marines lately.

Oh, so now it's GW's fault for this stagnation....? Wait, what....?

Having more options is never a bad thing.

And this is what makes the game what it is.....

Now, for a true rebuttal; I believe what some posters are stating is that some players find it easy to switch from the next "hot-item" in newly released marine codexes, while there are some players who like a specific chapter and stick with it through thick and thin. Some people call the former "band-wagoneers", always jumping on the latest and greatest......and that's fine with me, however, there are some of us old-schoolers/veterans that stick with our chosen chapter regardless of what the new hype is.

Now personally, I don't care about any of that, maybe some players cannot afford to build an entirely new marine army from the ground up like some of us veterans can or maybe there are other issues at stake.....regardless, it matters not to me. However, it does seem rather obvious that those that do jump on the wagon, changing their current marines to the latest inception, maybe are just trying to get an edge....(like that's really an edge).

I've been playing since '94 in the heady days of 2nd edition (just so you all know where I'm comming from) and I've seen lots of things in this hobby/game. GW isn't stagnating anything; their models are getting better and the quality of the product appears to be at an all-time-high. I'll keep buying if things continue, but trust me, I don't willingly lap up the GW kool-aid either.....players can do what they want, however, I don't think any amount of sticking to one's chosen marine army is stagnating the game. As long as they keep releasing decent models, people will always buy.

I don't mind DIY chapters either because I think that adds to the game personally, and it is a breath of fresh air; that being said I admire chapter "loyalty" as well. My Ultramarines just keep getting bigger.....especially for those Apoc games, it's great, however, like I said before, if they keep kicking out decent product, I'm going to buy it, but I'm still running Ultras even though I think that all of the other chapters are cool too, no matter how tempting they are....if anything, like some have already mentioned, Raven Guard would fit nicely as a "counts-as" army for this codex.....and I'm actually thinking of building one myself.

So, pardon the rant all, I can see both sides of this deal.....though I'm sure there are valid considerations for both view-points.
Please forgive me for the counter-snarkyness....lol! I couldn't resist, it was nothing personal.....

I'm not really saying the game is stagnating, I'm simply mocking people who think it is because GW's actions aren't lining up with their own vision of the game, and use crappy strawman arguments to justify their stupid views. Obviously having marine release after marine release can't stagnate the game - provided the releases are unique enough. (Having not read the codex, I have no way of judging that one way or another). If the models are selling, it's good for the game, end of story. Now that doesn't mean that I'M going to run out and buy a bunch of BA stuff - not that I wasn't contemplating it - but I won't be actively dissuading people by constantly bitching about the 40k landscape and GW. If anything, constantly complaining about a game, not buying its products or even boycotting them, and poisoning the perceptions of other players unjustly is what destroys a game.

Honestly, I don't understand the pride of people who loudly proclaim that they're not giving GW any money here, in 40k thread. The board is called DakkaDakka, for Emprah's sake. Nobody confiscated your 3E/4E rulebooks and models, and if you play in tournaments, you should have known that you would only ever succeed by adaptation anyway. Whether you like it or not, the state of balance is what it is, and while it would be nice if every army had stuff in line with the latest 5E codices, you should also realize how unfeasible that would be at this point.

Agreed; people will do what they want, regardless.

But like you said, and I agree, more options is better than none.

I don't recall it being mentioned here but after flipping through the Codex last night, I noticed that DC Dreads has the ability of fleet of foot. This alone is rather interesting as it makes mobility and the ability to close the distance in hth much better. What I failed to follow up on was to check if the Furioso, upgrade from Furioso to Lib or regular Dread in the codex also had the Fleet ability or is this only for DC Dreads?

Also while Mephiston is talked about in this thread not being a IC and the challenge it may be to get him into CC. He does have Fleet and with Wings of Sanguinius we are looking at 12" move followed by 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 19-24" charge range. If in a transport such as a raider 12" move 2" deploy 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 21-26" vault into CC. I assume this math is correct? The only thing other then not having a invulnerable save would be all 3 of his psychic powers are pre-chosen by the codex: Wings of Sanguinius, Sanguine Sword and Unleashed Rage ( I think it was unleashed rage ). Using Vehicles to catapult him or hide behind or staying making sure he has intervening models in front of him can give him all the invuln he may need. Still at his stats and toughness and modified Str of 10 with 6 attacks on a charge ( with rerolls ) it will be interesting to see if he can make back his points, tie up a key unit untill other Assault arive or take out a key character or vehicle.

Dante is also rather interesting as I believe he can be set up in a Land Raider Redeemer or LR with MM upgrade for hvy bolters vs Vehicle hvy armies, deepstrike it with no scatter. This can lead to some rather interesting stratagies pending on terrain and how your opponent sets up ( and no I don't mean suiciding in front of you opponents army ) such as forcing your opponent to deal with it buying time to set up the assault by your other units with fear of where the Baal Preds could show up from or if bunching up too much can make for good times for vindicators as well pending on builds.

All in all it looks like a fun codex with a ton of options ( at least at first ) to try and find out what kind of meta game it may lead to. As many have said, the codex also comes with drawbacks ie: no Combat Tactics ( w/o them many special characters from vanilla C:SM become useless as they are needed in order to be replaced by other names special abilities) and costs. As to deepstriking Land Raiders w/o using Dante? Scatter and a chance to lose 400+ w/o your opponent working for it just doesn't seem reliable enough pending on so many factors ( ie: Terrain, opponents set up and luck of the dice roll ).

Terminus wrote:

jbunny wrote:Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

No you don't. The IC has to be moved first only during pile in moves, not during the initial assault move.

And I have to laugh at people that discount the bolter. These are usually the same folks deriding the Tactical Squad as garbage. *there really needs to be an eyeroll orkmoticon*

there is one right next to the grinning one and the bug eyed one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Borris the Blade wrote:I don't recall it being mentioned here but after flipping through the Codex last night, I noticed that DC Dreads has the ability of fleet of foot. This alone is rather interesting as it makes mobility and the ability to close the distance in hth much better. What I failed to follow up on was to check if the Furioso, upgrade from Furioso to Lib or regular Dread in the codex also had the Fleet ability or is this only for DC Dreads?

Also while Mephiston is talked about in this thread not being a IC and the challenge it may be to get him into CC. He does have Fleet and with Wings of Sanguinius we are looking at 12" move followed by 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 19-24" charge range. If in a transport such as a raider 12" move 2" deploy 1d6" Fleet and a 6" charge or simply 21-26" vault into CC. I assume this math is correct? The only thing other then not having a invulnerable save would be all 3 of his psychic powers are pre-chosen by the codex: Wings of Sanguinius, Sanguine Sword and Unleashed Rage ( I think it was unleashed rage ). Using Vehicles to catapult him or hide behind or staying making sure he has intervening models in front of him can give him all the invuln he may need. Still at his stats and toughness and modified Str of 10 with 6 attacks on a charge ( with rerolls ) it will be interesting to see if he can make back his points, tie up a key unit untill other Assault arive or take out a key character or vehicle.

Dante is also rather interesting as I believe he can be set up in a Land Raider Redeemer or LR with MM upgrade for hvy bolters vs Vehicle hvy armies, deepstrike it with no scatter. This can lead to some rather interesting stratagies pending on terrain and how your opponent sets up ( and no I don't mean suiciding in front of you opponents army ) such as forcing your opponent to deal with it buying time to set up the assault by your other units with fear of where the Baal Preds could show up from or if bunching up too much can make for good times for vindicators as well pending on builds.

All in all it looks like a fun codex with a ton of options ( at least at first ) to try and find out what kind of meta game it may lead to. As many have said, the codex also comes with drawbacks ie: no Combat Tactics ( w/o them many special characters from vanilla C:SM become useless as they are needed in order to be replaced by other names special abilities) and costs. As to deepstriking Land Raiders w/o using Dante? Scatter and a chance to lose 400+ w/o your opponent working for it just doesn't seem reliable enough pending on so many factors ( ie: Terrain, opponents set up and luck of the dice roll ).

Dante has a jump pack the only transport he can ride in is the stormraven.

Dante has a jump pack the only transport he can ride in is the stormraven.

Damn! I hate small details like that! Oh well so much for the deep striking napalm idea =(


Appreciate the heads up

Dante is good for anti-pysker defense coupled with a librarian

I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

jbunny wrote:I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

But as an IC counts as a seperate unit in CC, he won't get to attack.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Basically there are going to be several strong builds.

G

Agreed.

UltraPrime wrote:

jbunny wrote:I stand corrected on moving the IC first. I missed the first part of the sentence that talked about it relating to pile-in's and react moves. i will say it sounds stupid that you have to get them into base contact when you are assaulted but not when you assault. In that case they can be a coward and have guys block for ya. but that's a different conversation.

But as an IC counts as a seperate unit in CC, he won't get to attack.

Yes but when you whole army strategy relies on single wound IC's with only a 3+ save and no power weapons, you don't want power weapons attacking them in close combat. I would give up there 2-3 attacks and keep them alive.

jbunny wrote:Yes but when you whole army strategy relies on single wound IC's with only a 3+ save and no power weapons, you don't want power weapons attacking them in close combat. I would give up there 2-3 attacks and keep them alive.

Yes, I see your point.