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Tssssss, get the hybrids!

Purge with fires!

I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...

Until there is a cheaper way to do characters, it won't happen. The WHFB plastic HQ's and the SM Commander were experiments, experiments that seem to have sadly gone away.

So viva la metal!

Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...

Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.

I reckon we'll see the return of plastic character kits eventually, but not until all other stuff (like Empire) are all in plastic. Then it becomes a bit more reasonable as part of a release budget to include them.

Certainly the Empire Wizards sell pretty well, as they are easily converted into Necromancers as well!

There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I reckon we'll see the return of plastic character kits eventually, but not until all other stuff (like Empire) are all in plastic. Then it becomes a bit more reasonable as part of a release budget to include them.

Certainly the Empire Wizards sell pretty well, as they are easily converted into Necromancers as well!

Not only that, but I've seen some cool Sanctioned Psykers made from Empire Wizard+Cadian bits.

Fetterkey wrote:Well, I assume he can still be a counts-as Sanguinary Priest at the very least....

Don't worry, he commiserates this with Brother Bethor.
____

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm liking the idea of successor chapters getting their own little single-page blurb. Do the DA or SW Codices have this?

I don't think so, but the CSM do, sort of.

I also agree that this is an excellent change in approach, especially for First Founding Legions that were split up (UM, DA & BA). BT & SW should have examples of different Crusade / Great Comany approaches. All of these show increased diversity in terms of setting canonical bounds for each Codex chapter, and allow players more freedom.

In the case of BA, I'm assuming the 4 will break out as:
- BA (default)
- FT (radical fury / rage)
- Angels Sanguine (puritan Sanguinary)
- Angels Vermillion (Dread-heavy)

Anyhow great stuff. I think the BA book is the new model for SM successor / variant Codices and sets a high standard.

chaplaingrabthar wrote: I am curious as to why the BA are being turned into the Dread-heavy chapter, when generally Dreads have been pretty shooty and the BA are the all out assault chapter.

To be Dread-heavy, the army needs both shooty and fighty dreads. The long-standing Furioso vs standard covers that, esp as BA are good to take standard Dreds as Heavies rather than Elite. A standard Dread is still pretty fighty due to the DNCCW.

And really, it's process of elimination/ distribution of features:
- UM SM is vanilla shooty, but (oddly) adds White Scars bikers, leaving room for the other sub-Codices
- DA is minor deviance from Codex, but also covers Termies & Bikes
- SW & BT are fighty, but both major deviance from Codex
- BA is fighty, but still pays lip service to the Codex, so they get the Dread focus, along with the Assault Marines.
IMO, the big challenge will be advancing BT to have more variety, while also forging a clearly distinct identity from BA, SW, and CSM.

Fetterkey wrote:There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.

It's also a sparse kit. We'll ignore the lack-of-a-second-lightning-claw for a second and just look at the sprue - look at all that dead space. There's more air in that kit than plastic, and that means it loses out on what could be a very nice multi-purpose kit. Now, we do have to remember that this was before their plastic tech renaissance, so the packed sprues we're used to now (Space Wolves being the latest example, or for an older example the Devastator Squad box) simply weren't possible then. A re-cut of the Commander, Assault Squad and Command Squad box could yield twice the bits and less wasted space (just look at an Assault Marine sprue - there's more sprue than model!).

People not taking commanders isn't so much an issue, although a Marine 'Commander' box with multiple heads, torsos, shoulder pads, weapons and accessories to make Chaplains/Librarians/Captains out of a single box would be very cool. They could also fill the gaps in the box by giving us Combi-Flamers, the other lightning claw, Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.

I also stand corrected (partially) - Command boxes aren't a concept that has been left behind. Guard got two them. Granted it was a squad rather than a single model, but the concept partially survived there. I hope it continues.

Fetterkey wrote:There are two main problems with the SM Commander kit. First, the weapon loadouts are wonky and don't really correspond to what people actually take. Second, people don't actually take generic Commanders that much anymore. If there was a "Space Marine Hero" kit with options for a Chaplain and Librarian, I'd imagine it would get much more sales.

Perhaps, that's because the SM Commander Kit isn't intended to cover every SM HQ option.

Perhaps, just perhaps, eventually, GW will release a plastic mix-and-max SM Chaplain kit. And then a SM Librarian kit, to complete the SM HQ range.

And then perhaps GW might release a BA Commander kit, to be followed by DA and BT Commander kits, each with extra spare bitz to customize the SM Chaplain & Librarian kits.

Is that beyond expectation, given how little metal GW has left to remove from the SM range?

I'll be drop podding all my furiosos directly into the enemy line as soon as possible in game.

Shenanigans will ensue....

You can build whatever SM character with all the wargear/options you want from bits, you don't need a boxed kit.

The rumors at this point seem to be wrapping around on themselves with nothing much new provided over the past week. For Blood Angels to be top tier again they will need some strong units that are a bit over the top but don't cost an exorbant amount of points. I am hoping there are at least two viable lists that can perform well. It would be great if you can play a balanced list that hits hard in close combat and can absorb some punishment without quickly fading away. If all the best units are very expensive you will end up with a very small army that you can't make any mistakes if you want to win. If you look at IG now these players have access to many cheap units that can pour out lots and lots of firepower. I have found that IG players don't like killpoint missions because it's their worst mission. Killpoints were designed to balance out armies like mech IG. Victory points is not the answer... IG will field lots of chimeras with BS4 veterans carrying gak tons of melta and maybe one squad with plasma. First you have to crack open eight chimeras of death then engage the cheap veterans. Meanwhile they are pounding you with lots of ordnance and other shooting. They are a nightmare in multiple objective missions. Victory points as opposed to killpoints make them that much stronger. You might kill some chimeras and then assault some of the veteran squads. On the other hand mech IG gives up tons of killpoints, it's their worst matchup by far. They don't need any assault units because their shooting is so strong. That's just the way it is. Hopefully the new Necrons will bring back some balance versus mech armies. It's much needed in my opinion

G

Fetterkey wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...

Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.

I totally disagree.

Scottywan82 wrote:I totally disagree.

Perhaps he has not seen the Space Hulk Terminators?

I'll say this- with metals, for me at least, there is a sense of permanence that I dont get with plastic minis. That plus the nostalgia factos for me mean I rather enjoy special characters being in metal.

Hell, at the prices GW charges all the minis should be in metal, and you should get twice as much stuff.

Thats not to detract from the thread too much- I havent bought anything from GW directly for months, but depending on the BA stuff I might make an exception. (Or maybe not, and it'll only be the bitz sellars I go to) But I will say that if the BA stuff doesnt match a certain look I want it to (for use not as BA at all, but my own chapter.), I probably wont bother too much with GW anymore anyways.

And so i cant wait for pictures, personally.

Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.

Now back on topic there is all this talk about the Furioso Dread being a Ironclad equivalent (or it is at least strongly implied) and they are not and one thing I would like to know is other then fluff how is GW going to split the two (hoping they are in the BA dex). If the are putting the Furioso into a fast attack slot give it a 12" move?

Kervin wrote:Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.

Yeah, but they can also unbalance the model if all the metal is on one side, or if it's top heavy. I agree about plastic models feeling a little light though. Often i stick a penny in the base to give it some weight.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:I just wish we could get ALL metal out of wargaming, but whatever...

Yup. On the bright side, metal still seems to have some detail that plastic can't provide.

I totally disagree.

That depends on what you mean by "detail".
- Plastic molds cannot have any undercuts, so plastics have a 2-D quality. This works great for things assembled from plates, or things that don't have inset / textured detail going evenly around the shape.
- Metal molds "give" and shrink, so there will always be some inaccuracy in the model, and viscosity limits possible "sharpness"

It's a trade-off, but you can use more plastic parts to "accurately" capture a 3-D shape.

Kervin wrote:Ok on the off topic, I like hybrids it gives them a heft that helps keep then in place and makes so it feels like you are playing with something.

Now back on topic there is all this talk about the Furioso Dread being a Ironclad equivalent (or it is at least strongly implied) and they are not and one thing I would like to know is other then fluff how is GW going to split the two (hoping they are in the BA dex). If the are putting the Furioso into a fast attack slot give it a 12" move?

i don't know if from a balance standpoint i'd like the furioso to have ironclad stats. the ironclad is by name a more heavily armored dread while the furioso is.. well.. furious! the limited fluff we have on the furioso dreads doesn't really mention a ton of extra armor. i'd prefer if it had fleet (like the defiler), move through cover, and furious charge (like the rest of the army) for that all important initiative 5 on the charge. GW has been (at least in 5th ed) pretty good about differentiating their units and their variants. the ironclad is the "heavy" dread, the venerable one is the one with a hero statline (WS/BS5 and reroll damage rolls), and the standard dread is vanilla. i see them as equivalent to termies, sternguard, and tactical marines with the furioso hopefully being the jump marine (aka faster than normal dread).

New plastic Tyranids seem pretty well detailed to me.

Commander Endova wrote:

BoLS wrote:
-Red Fury: Unit must pass a Ld check if an enemy model is within 12" or be subject to Rage USR
(Note the lack of Combat Tactics)

yeah,
How does this work? sounds like premeasureing, you'll know exactly which of your units are within 12" of a enemy unit.
Do all BloodAngels test and those that fail check to see if they are within 12"? and if they are must rage.
You'll still find out which units are 12.5" away and now being rage free wont risk the charge.

Panic...

Ill take GWs best plastics over any other companies best metals any day.. The whole argument of plastics being less detailed was relevant years and years ago

I suggest looking at the best new plastic kit imo

Kirasu wrote:Ill take GWs best plastics over any other companies best metals any day.. The whole argument of plastics being less detailed was relevant years and years ago

I suggest looking at the best new plastic kit imo

Thanks. I was going to do some multi-quoting and rant, but that said it for me. Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit, because I can at least convert the plastic. I gave up on metal conversions almost a decade ago.

Scottywan82 wrote:Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit,

Yes, plastics are great, especially with GW's new mix-and-match options, but whoa, dude... Let's not get too carried away here.

Scottywan82 wrote:Plastics FTW. I'd actually pay MORE for plastic than a comparable metal kit,

please :( no more empire Goldswords

Comments like this one aren't really Dakka suitable. ta.

Do we think this Games Day WIP is likely to be the new lander?
Sorry if this has been mooted already.

The aerodynamics of that thing are breathtaking. Even worse than the 'flying brick'.

That's an upcoming FW model, not the Tantalus.

Therion wrote:The aerodynamics of that thing are breathtaking. Even worse than the 'flying brick'.

"Suspension of Disbelief" is required before entering 40k!