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Yes stop the rant. Take it to PMs and don't spam this thread anymore.

G

KOS wrote:come on guys this is a game, let's stop this rant please, it is pointless!

Let's talk about Blood Angels and stay on topic

no! internet dominance must be proven over others

bunch of nonsense and insults

Boy Shummy, you really showed me. LOL. I guess I should bow to your mad marine playing skills for clearly I have none. I guess playing this game as long as I've had has taught me nothing. Have fun playing your quasi-space shark vampires.

If you can't realize that a diverse force works and not internet list spam, then that's fine by me. We'll see in the coming months when more people start playing BA and how their lists are going to be trending. So continue to berate me for having an opinion that differs from the alleged internet experts. I have a thick skin.

I can only relate my experience.

First some background, I have been playing since 2002, in my 8 years of experience, I have played Space Wolves (3rd Edition), Thousand Sons (3rd Edition), Space Marine Chapter of my own making/ ultra-mauleens (early 4th), Word Bearers Deamon Bomb (4th edition), PDF Blood Angels (late 4th early 5th), and Vulkan "actually green" Salamanders (my primary army now).

I am a Marine player, always have and always will. I am no expert, but I have had my fair share of experience playing 3+ armor of all types.

What a good Marine army is composed of is three things:

1. Durable quality shooting
2. Decent Combat units, either to counter charge or line break
3. Durable scoring units

I have been studying the BA codex for about a week now, and BA don't break the mold anymore then other Marine armies. They don't need Bolters because Bolters are OMG good. They need bolters because it is a scoring unit that doesn't have to get in your opponents face to be effective. The problem with assault Marines is that to maximize their effectiveness, they need to be engaging in assaults. Tactical squads don't. They can move 12" get out, rapid fire something, and sit on an objective. That is their goal.

Critical Mass lists are stupid because it is so easy to dramatically decrease their damage out put. I don't know of an IG list built even remotely good that can't take out multiple Razorbacks in a shooting phase. Then what? You have 5 man Marine Squads hoofing it? That's effective? I don't think so, and that is CK's point.

Tactical Squads are in no way "better" then Assault Marines, they just fill a different role, and any balanced competitive Blood Angels army will include some once player realize that pushing Assault Marines into peoples face is not a good idea.

If you ask me, the true jems of this codex are:

1. Librarians and/or Librarian Dreadnoughts that have the ability to deep strike or be delivered to a flank to break up Chimera walls.
2. Devastator squads and combat squaded Tactical Heavy Weapons with a Sanguinary High Priest
3. Assault Squads with attached characters in cheaper Land Raiders.
4. Lightning Claw Assault Terminators with a Reclusiarch and Sanguinary High Priest
5. Death Company and o Furioso Dreadnoughts delivered via Stormravens
6. Tactical Squads in Fast Rhinos to claim objectives.

Blood Angels are no more or less powerful then other fifth edition dexes. I am going to play them because they compliment my Salamanders rather well as they play totally different.

Hey what was the release date on the codex? I kept hearing early April but my FLGS has a copy they let me paw through and the owner casually said they were getting them in next week. Now I know "getting in" and "selling" are two different beasts, but when he says "getting in" he usually means selling. He then went on to mention that the models would be early April.

April 15th I think?

EDIT: GW site says April 3rd is release date

See, you'd think I would check that but... I just don't think about the obvious stuff.

Geesh. Soooo much info on Blood Angels....All I want to know is HOW MANY DREADS CAN I TAKE IN TTL? I see there are hq dreads, elite dreads, troops dreads (if you go by the GW website on ordering page they are under troops), dreads in fast if in drop pod, and heavy dreads....So does that mean up to 17!?!? Wowza if it is possible!

spartanlegion wrote:Geesh. Soooo much info on Blood Angels....All I want to know is HOW MANY DREADS CAN I TAKE IN TTL? I see there are hq dreads, elite dreads, troops dreads (if you go by the GW website on ordering page they are under troops), dreads in fast if in drop pod, and heavy dreads....So does that mean up to 17!?!? Wowza if it is possible!

From what I remember:
- Furioso Dreads are Elites
- Librarian Dreadnoughts are Elites, I think
- Death Company Dreadnoughts are Troops (one can be taken for every 5 Death Company Marines you take)
- Regular Dreads are Heavy Support

I didn't see the Fast Attack section long, so I can't remember if Dreads in Drop Pods were Fast Attack or not.

But yeah, you could take 3 Furiosos/Librarian Furiosos, then with 30 Death Company you'd be allowed to take another 5-6 Death Company Dreads (I can't remember if Death Company themselves COUNT as a Troops choice, hence 5-6), plus 3 regular Dreads as Heavy Support, for a total of 12 Dreads (11 if Death Company count as a Troops choice on the FOC). Obviously, just running 30 Death Company has a few problems: 1) The points cost is insane and 2) DC Dreads and regular Death Company are not scoring units, so you'd need to table your opponent every game.

It's been a week or so since I saw the 'Dex though, so some of my information is probably wrong

Here is the FOC (from Memory so I might be off):

-HQ-

Mephiston
Dante
Astoroth
Sanguinator
Seth
Reclusiarch (essentially a 3 wound 4th edition chaplain)
Librarian
Captain

Honor Guard (similar to SM Command Squads, Captains and Dante access them).

-Elites-

Terminators
Assault Terminators
Furioso Dreads (upgradable to the Librarian Dread)
Sanguinary Priests
Chaplains (exactly the same as the current Chaplain)
Sanguinary Guard (that can become a troop choice w/ Dante)
Sternguard

-Troops-

Tactical Squads (same as codex SM but has access to EVERY dedicated transport)
Assault Squads (same as codex SM but has access to a special weapon for every 5 guys, access to EVERY dedicated transport at a 35 point discount)
Scouts Squad (same as codex SM but has access to a locator beacon)
Death Company (has access to any dedicated transport)
Death Company Dreads (1 per every 5 DC)

-Fast Attack-

Land Speeder Squadron
Vanguard Veterans (no relic blades but has decent of angels)
Scout Bikers
Bikers
Attack Bikes
Baal Predators

-Heavy Support-

Predators
Whirlwinds
Vindicators
Devastator Squads (no difference in cost from Codex: SM)
Dreadnoughts (the elite ones from Codex: SM)
Stormraven

-Dedicated Transports-

Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider


No Iron Clads, No thunderfire Cannons, didn't see any techmarines, no Null Zone Librarians, no relic blades, no Land Speeder Storm.

Most characters and Sergents have access to Infurno Pistol, and Hand Flamer.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Well duh! Have you even seen the list posted a few pages back? It's a glass hammer. I'm not the only one in this thread that shares that assessment but since I was the first to mention that it was, I guess I'm the goat, huh? I've seen many incarnations of lists like that and I'm here to tell you that they are a glass hammer. But again, go on believing what you want. That's perfectly fine with me.

Except that list is not even that. "Glass hammer", or "glass cannon", implies it is capable of delivering brutal damage at the cost of being fragile. Last time I checked, 5 assault marines do not really deliver damage that remotely qualifies as "brutal". If they charge one of my combined infantry squads, they will kill some lasgun-totting guardsmen, and then will be shredded by a bunch of power weapon attacks. If they charge some Nobz or a big mob of Ork Boyz, they will kill some, and then get rolled over. If they charge a unit of Grey Hunters, both units will claim some casualties and then be locked in combat and guess who wins that attrition battle? Or is it the AV11 razorbacks that are supposed to be the "hammer" in this situation? The 180 point Predators?

At the end of the day, that list just plain sucks. It's not a glass hammer, it's a glass butter knife.

THE STORMRAVEN IS NOT GETTING A MODEL YET!!!!!

Is there a model out there that could count as 'Stormraven'?

Terminus wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Well duh! Have you even seen the list posted a few pages back? It's a glass hammer. I'm not the only one in this thread that shares that assessment but since I was the first to mention that it was, I guess I'm the goat, huh? I've seen many incarnations of lists like that and I'm here to tell you that they are a glass hammer. But again, go on believing what you want. That's perfectly fine with me.

Except that list is not even that. "Glass hammer", or "glass cannon", implies it is capable of delivering brutal damage at the cost of being fragile. Last time I checked, 5 assault marines do not really deliver damage that remotely qualifies as "brutal". If they charge one of my combined infantry squads, they will kill some lasgun-totting guardsmen, and then will be shredded by a bunch of power weapon attacks. If they charge some Nobz or a big mob of Ork Boyz, they will kill some, and then get rolled over. If they charge a unit of Grey Hunters, both units will claim some casualties and then be locked in combat and guess who wins that attrition battle? Or is it the AV11 razorbacks that are supposed to be the "hammer" in this situation?

And the end of the day, that list just plain sucks. It's not a glass hammer, it's a glass butter knife.

I'm pretty sure it's a high mobile firepower list, not an assault army. It just has assault marines because they get more and cheaper armed transports.

Is there a model out there that could count as 'Stormraven'?

No, but there was an amazing conversion posted a few pages back of one.

Neith wrote:Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for a Stormraven kit- while Spearhead would be an ideal time to release it, I think honestly that if it ever does get a model it'll be alongside a new C:SM (and the Stormraven will be added to vanilla Marines). I'm terrible at scratchbuilding so if there isn't a GW/FW kit, I'll just do without unless I feel really adventurous

Given the SR fluff in the codex -- and persistent rumors about Codex: Grey Knights soon -- I have a feeling it's going to be a GK release.

I'm pretty sure it's a high mobile firepower list, not an assault army. It just has assault marines because they get more and cheaper armed transports.

It's a list that basically screams how best to deal with it. Any objective mission, and the Razorbacks are dead.

You have 6 predators giving them cover saves, who cares, they are still paper thin and IG can bounce right through that.

I agree with Terminus, it's a glass butter knife. No disrespect to Deadshane, he posted the first list that came to mind, I am sure playtesting and experience will produce something different and more powerful.

No, but there was an amazing conversion posted a few pages back of one.

This was posted on BOLS Lounge:

Looks like a landraider hull with a cut down speeder on top, and Valkyrie wings and engines. Interesting take on it.

gorgon wrote:

Neith wrote:Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for a Stormraven kit- while Spearhead would be an ideal time to release it, I think honestly that if it ever does get a model it'll be alongside a new C:SM (and the Stormraven will be added to vanilla Marines). I'm terrible at scratchbuilding so if there isn't a GW/FW kit, I'll just do without unless I feel really adventurous

Given the SR fluff in the codex -- and persistent rumors about Codex: Grey Knights soon -- I have a feeling it's going to be a GK release.

Oh man, that would be so epic! With Blood Angels in April, Spearhead in May, and the Necrons rumored for January 2011, that leaves 7 months of 2010 to fill with 40K goodness. I have no doubt we will get at least one more power armored codex before the end of the year, whether it is Dark Angels, Black Templar or Grey Knights. Mix in an old school "Heroes of the Imperium" Inquisition book, and Jes Goodwin's new Dark Eldar line, and I'm in plastic model heaven.

Mahu wrote:Here is the FOC (from Memory so I might be off):

No Iron Clads, No thunderfire Cannons, didn't see any techmarines, no Null Zone Librarians, no relic blades, no Land Speeder Storm.

Techmarines are there. they even have bolster defenses.
And I'm pretty sure vanguard don't have descent of angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:

This was posted on BOLS Lounge:

That is way too small to pack 12 marines let alone 12 marines and a dreadnought. The one posted a few pages back was much better.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Mahu wrote:Here is the FOC (from Memory so I might be off):

No Iron Clads, No thunderfire Cannons, didn't see any techmarines, no Null Zone Librarians, no relic blades, no Land Speeder Storm.

Techmarines are there. they even have bolster defenses.
And I'm pretty sure vanguard don't have descent of angels.

I will double check to be sure, but I am pretty sure the whole "Vangaurd don't get decent of angels" issue was solved by the jump pack entry in the wargear section. I will confirm tonight.

Terminus wrote:Looks like a landraider hull with a cut down speeder on top, and Valkyrie wings and engines.

If by Land Raider you mean Rhino, you are correct.

And if by Rhino you mean Valkyrie troop compartment, you are correct.

Hi guys !

The BA codex arrived in French GW stores too, and staff being nice, this week I got the opportunity to get a glance over it, so I checked some details, to complete what I read on Dakka².

I already knew about fast moving rhinos and their variants, another thing caught my eye. The Furioso Dreadnought, which is really a furious beast for instance. It comes in Elite, as base equipement he has a pair of blood-lightning claws, Strenght : 6. In pairs, they grant an additionnal attack for each wound dealt with success. And this is true : additionnal attacks allow for another round of attacks in case of success too. Its states clearly so on Furioso page. As long as BA player wins, he rolls again !

Today, I have just activated the command runes of an ancient artifact :
my trusted scientific calculator, equipped with 10 memory buffers, yes please !
Doing some mathammer (skip the paragraph in colour if mathammer is not your cup of tea).
I started from the number of attacks in dread's profile (3), then adding the bonus attack if he charges, the average numbers are here :


Each attack will hit 2 of 3 times against nearly everyone, because of Furioso's WS rising to 6. Rerolls of to wound dice end up in 97% wound rate on toughness of 4 or less, and there is no armor save allowed.
sans charge :
initial round : 1.94 kills
round 2 : 1.26
round 3 : 0.82
round 4 : 0.53
I crunched numbers up to 9 rounds, skipping, it's below 0.5 anyway...

with charge :
initial round : 2.59 kills
round 2 : 1.68
round 3 : 1.09
round 4 : 0.71 .
and so on...

Obviously, these are only stupid statistical averages, a serious probabilist approach is needed to obtain wound numbers distribution. I will do it if I'm motivated enough. For the moment, this gives a good overview of this vehicle power. I summed up the rounds by two methods : additionning all these averages up to the 9nth round, or just keeping the numbers rounded up/down to the nearest integer. The final results are the same, here they are :


An average 5 wounds without charging, and of 7 wounds with charge are inflicted to Dreadnought opponent unit !


Now, let's take the problem in reverse order :
If the Furioso Dreadnought had been designed to deal attacks the ordinary way (one bunch of dice) instead of sequentially, how much attacks on his profile is the equivalent ?
In fact, this corresponds to a profile with Attacks = D6+4 and a special rule granting :
Furioso Dreadnought gains D6 attacks while charging instead of one !


All this goodness with a frontal AV of 13 and a Basilisk cost only !
I feel this is monstruous !!

Nice. Very nice.

G

Could you pleeese help me? everybody says the flamers in the assault sqad are either 10points either 5.I can;t make a list without knowing...does anyone know 4 sure?

usa_supersonic wrote:Could you pleeese help me? everybody says the flamers in the assault sqad are either 10points either 5.I can;t make a list without knowing...does anyone know 4 sure?

They cost enough to get the job done. That is all I can tell you.

usa_supersonic wrote:Could you pleeese help me? everybody says the flamers in the assault sqad are either 10points either 5.I can;t make a list without knowing...does anyone know 4 sure?

I would guess that info would be in the Codex...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Is there a model out there that could count as 'Stormraven'?

No, but there was an amazing conversion posted a few pages back of one.

The Valk conversion? Not bad, but it seems to be on the small side.

The actual Storm Raven model is going to have to be very big, indeed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Is there a model out there that could count as 'Stormraven'?

No, but there was an amazing conversion posted a few pages back of one.

The Valk conversion? Not bad, but it seems to be on the small side.

The actual Storm Raven model is going to have to be very big, indeed.

Thunder hawk?

I'm guessing the Storm Raven will split the difference between the Thunderhawk and Valk.

Big for sure, one Valkyrie just fits in standard GW figurine case (or its alternative vendor counterparts), both in lenght and width. Stormraven should not have bigger wingspan nor length to fit in. Otherwise the reduced carrying possibilities would considerably hamper the kit sales. Who would want to carry along in his FLGS (or worse : in a tournament) such a huge figurine that does not fit in any available bag ?

Ravajaxe wrote:Big for sure, one Valkyrie just fits in standard GW figurine case (or its alternative vendor counterparts), both in lenght and width. Stormraven should not have bigger wingspan nor length to fit in. Otherwise the reduced carrying possibilities would considerably hamper the kit sales. Who would want to carry along in his FLGS (or worse : in a tournament) such a huge figurine that does not fit in any available bag ?

Depends, is it going to be EPICWINAWSOME!!!!! because if so...