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@Terminus: As you quoted, I said "non-JP" meaning "without Jump Packs"... Please re-read.

Combi-Preds with fast are gonna be sweet. One thing that makes the Fast rule so powerful is the ability to roll on the board and still fire to full effect. That provides Mech BA the ability to go into reserve to avoid alpha strikes, something which SM lacks.

Sorry Hwang, I misread.

Dakka preds are only 100 points. Now THAT's cost effectiveness.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

I dunno, I'm not convinced that two fast rhinos are better then three regular ones (which is basically how they work out). I do think Predators and Razorbacks benefit much more so though.

I'm also completely in agreement with you that the uber-grit approach probably should be the standard for all marines.

Jack

I dont think the razorback spam list will work either.

Regardless its the point that the assault army, gets all fast vehicles to top it off.

I play the CC game against pretty much everything with myy CSM (including BTs...) and normal Rhinos feel slow to me.

Id pay those extra points gladly to get cheap and fast transports.

Considering better CSM CC squads, you get that nice FNP/FC upgrade to make your MEQs just as fearsome.


I think most people hate the fact, that BA get everything (close to) from the vanilla dex, and the vanilla dex can only eke out a small niche with SCMs like Vulkan.

I think Matt Ward has done his job perfectly, create a mirage that makes marine players buy the codex and maybe 1-2 units resulting in an extra $100 per marine player.

The whole point of these other marine codexes is to make every marine player say with that rule or unit this is clearly going to be better then the usual.

I can see the value in putting jump infantry in the skimmer tank. Move in using fast movement, pop smoke then the next turn your jump infantry can disembark at the beginning of the movement and launch an assault up to 18" (not including the effects of Rage). Some armies will have problems taking out the skimmer tank.

On fast rhinos, this alone will make things very difficult for close combat oriented armies to counter. You can always keep your transports out of charge range from a large number of units if you play it right. OCE as per the PDF codex stinks because it is unreliable plus you are still paying more points for this ability. I think most current BA players will tell you they rarely use OCE and there is always the chance you'll end immobilizing the transport, which can really hurt. Now it's completely full proof and you just pay more points. I think for many smart BA players rhinos will become a staple. It's a huge advantage in every way and you can maintain the protection/defense that comes with playing mech. Jump infantry always have a problem dealing with enemy shooting and running foot infantry in a transport solves these problems. In fact I'll go so far as to say that we will probably see a rebirth of modified rhino rush. All your rhinos zoom up the first turn then you jump out the next turn and launch your assaults. Fast rhinos will remain unique to BA and it was a huge advantage back in 3rd edition. Jump infantry in a fast skimmer is also strong but as noted you are paying a lot more points to do it versus foot infantry in a rhino.

I was never a big fan of razorbacks for a mobile army. They are good for gunlines though but I think you'll lose out on the extra points required to field them in a new BA army. That said one of my most potent BA armies (3rd edition) was a razorback core army with three Baal Predators. Back in third you could take 5/6 man las/plas tactical squads (prior to combat squads). The amount of firepower you could lay down was amazing! This was by far one of the best SAFH armies I've ever seen. You had the cheap and very potent DCs and basically got free power fist/power weapon for each veteran sergeant inducted into the DC. This army was so strong I would only play it against people I didn't like.

On the another subject, the new DC I think are going to be very strong again. I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

I'm extremely excited about the new BA to say the least.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I can see the value in putting jump infantry in the skimmer tank. Move in using fast movement, pop smoke then the next turn your jump infantry can disembark at the beginning of the movement and launch an assault up to 18" (not including the effects of Rage). Some armies will have problems taking out the skimmer tank.

Why are you popping smoke on a vehicle that just generated cover for itself?

Black Blow Fly wrote: I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

Yeah, you wish. No plasmaguns for Death Company.

Terminus wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote: I giggle when I see people say they got hit with the nerf bat because they lost rending. Take a ten man squad with two plasmaguns and an infernus pistol, load them in a Redeemer with a Chaplain... They will destroy.

Yeah, you wish. No plasmaguns for Death Company.

Also, I don't think anyone said foot-slogging DC suck, it's the ones that apparently strap a tactical marine to their back that we have issue with.

Well, since they are relentless and thus a very stable platform, would the strapped-on tactical marine still be able to fire heavy weapons?

Is Sanguinary Priests an Independent character? -would be great if I had a blood lance and fc+ fnp in one assault squad

Blood Lance from a Librarian, I assume?

Sanguinary Priests are indeed ICs, that's their main drawback IMO (they could have made them attachment characters like Wolf Guard, but then they'd be broken at 50 points + equipment).

Is the SP FC/FNP-bubble 6" even when attached to a squad, or will it affect the whole squad no matter the distance?

I'm pretty sure it's "units" rather than "models", so one priest could easily have multiple squads benefiting from his chalice.

Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

It does if it pops smoke, not otherwise. Only >12" moving skimmers get the free obscured rule.

Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

Sanguinary priest is pretty much an uber apothecary, not a librarian

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Are you still referring to DC? Because bolters are the only ranged weapon they can take.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Okay then meltaguns plus a couple of power fists. Not sure if the rhino moving fast with get the 4+ cover save... very nice if it does though.

G

Are you still referring to DC? Because bolters are the only ranged weapon they can take.

No, they can get special pistol weapons, 1 for every 5. But yes, the only weapons that they can take that can make use of Relentless are the bolters.

AICN review: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44317

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Terminus wrote:

usa_supersonic wrote:Sanguinary Priest he gives fnp and fc 6" bubble right? but isn't he a psychic? is he not allowed to have blood lance or other psychic powers?

And IC for Sanguinary Priest is great...he can join more units...during a game

No, he's not a psychic. And IC is terrible compared to the horror he would have been if he could become a part of the squad he joins. He's relatively weeny when it comes to combat (he doesn't even have a power weapon at base cost, and only has one wound). Any capable opponent will direct some attacks towards the Sanguinary Priest, punk him, and there goes your FNP. You'll have to play movement tricks where he can't get into base-to-base with the opponent's squad if they are something that can threaten him (i.e. anything that threatens a regular space marine).

Thge problem is if you assault IC's have to lead the way, so you can not hide them in the mddle. The "best" thing to do is detach and keep them in the transports.

The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

And boring...lacking any soul at all. At the end of the day, once people start playing they are going realize they need bolters in their lists. The assault marine/ vehicle discount is a fad.

OK, *why* are people going to need Bolters? For AP5?

CKO wrote:I dont think the razorback spam list will work either.

I agree. It's a fad...just like Combining SOBs with Vulcan lists were when the C:SM codex came out...or the 3 sterguard, pedro drop lists. It's funny you never see those lists anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, *why* are people going to need Bolters? For AP5?

To put lots of wounds to target. Do you really think your predators of OMGAWESOME! are going to get more than one turn of shooting given their weak a$$ side armor? Where is your massed fire coming from? AV11 razorbacks? Spare me...

Breotan wrote:AICN review: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44317

Sadly I think Massawyrm's review sums up everything wrong with both the 40K community and GW today...

Lost sense of loyalty to a chosen army

Placing a premium on min/maxing

Abandonment of long established fluff

etc., etc.

Sounds like the tourney set will love it though and so will GW's accountants...

The way I play, "massed fire" comes from templates:
- 3 or 4 Plasma Cannons
- Demolisher Ordnance

Bolters? Meh.