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That's a freakin' fast Force Weapon Dread moving across the board.

His problem is that he costs 175 points, can't use the force weapon's instant death ability the turn he uses any other psychic power. The fact he has a force weapon is actually a disadvantage to him since he cannot get dual blood talons and therefore does less damage in combat than a 50 points cheaper normal Furioso.

Yes, but that's 175 points, so it should be badass. The wings can be cancelled with a psychic hood, and if it's using wings, it can't use the force weapon's ability.

While it will take some time and plenty of games to really find out what the Blood Angels can do, there's nothing in particular I'm concerned about. I think Space Wolves with their best tactical unit in the game, very flexible psykers, and their awesome Long Fangs are by far the tougher army to face, at least for my IG. There are two things in the BA codex that are OMGFRIGGINAWESOME:

One entry is the Sanguinary Priest and his FNP/FC bubble. However, they don't even have a power weapon at their base cost, can be singled out in close combat, and IIRC, they only have 1 wound each. It will basically be a game of "engage them before they engage you".

The other, and by far the best IMO, is the Baal predator outflanking and moving 12" while firing the flamestorm cannon. For only 115 points, this thing makes my infantry squads crap their collective pants. If I played BA, I'd always bring at least one.


edit: I'm not a big fan of the Sanguinary Guard, but I love the Death Company models. Mixing these guys with the Legion of the Damned models would make a gorgeous unit. The LofD Sargent would make a great Chaplain.

I have an idea in my head for an angelic host type. Basically works like this

Dante
Maybe sanguinor
3 storm ravens
as many sanguinary guard squads as i can fit in the list.

For only 115 points, this thing makes my infantry squads crap their collective pants. If I played BA, I'd always bring at least one.

At 115 points the Predator still doesn't have any sponsons. It costs 145 points with FSC/TL AC and two heavy bolters.

I think Space Wolves with their best tactical unit in the game, very flexible psykers, and their awesome Long Fangs are by far the tougher army to face, at least for my IG

I love the SW units you mentioned but I think by far the biggest difference maker are the TWC. For 260 points the SW get an assault unit with 8 T5 complexified wounds with a storm shield and a power fist tossed in, assaults up to 24" in one turn and causes a pretty hefty amount of damage to any type of target including Land Raiders. To me the speed, damage, resilience and versatility of this unit is something the BA cannot match. The jump packers are simply a lot less viable and LR mounted assault units are pretty much the same as in C:SM.

I think it's actually pretty sad that the expertise of BA is mobile tanks and choppy Dreadnoughts instead of the actual troops. I'm not saying that specialising in fast vehicles is a bad thing at all, but this release was a perfect opportunity to make serious all-out assault SM armies viable. If the SM would be the jacks of all trades, the SW the shooty army that counter-attacks with strong units anything that comes close, then the BA should be the one that is truly offensively minded. It doesn't seem likely.

I know it doesn't have any sponsons. Screw sponsons. 25 points for two heavy bolters? Pass... and I laugh when I see that variant of the Baal. Paying LRBT points for 3 TL AC shots and 6 HB shots on a 13/11/10 chasis? Yeah, not concerned in the slightest.

No, the dirt-cheap turret-only variant can scoot around 12" (so hit in melee only on a 6) and place that "autohits, wounds on 2+, ignores cover saves and any armor short of TDA, and insta-kills eldar/guard" template is by far the more terrifying tank.

Thunderwolves are badasses, but are slower than BA and can't hide in a transport. I don't know if I would bother with the power fist (or thunderhammer, rather) or stormshield, given their high cost. 5-6 rending attacks each should be plenty to deal with armor, and I'd rather have an extra rider. At some point down the line I was going to make a Chaosy SW list using Spawn as wolves, but now I'm tempted to use DC/LotD models for my troops, and they'll look weird together.

a few questions for the codex owners out there regarding dante...

how does his no deviation on the deepstrike rule interact with other squads? is it limited to jump pack squads or can he join up with 10 termies and not have them deviate? also, does his hit and run rule have any limitations as to whom it applies to? can he hit and run with the above termies?

signed,
looking to use my space hulk termies in new and cool ways

Hey Luna if you are still following this I sent you a PM asking how to send you your new Devs.

: )

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Hey Luna if you are still following this I sent you a PM asking how to send you your new Devs.

: )

G

Omg! are you same person as GBF?
Like you wont send me an empty box right xD
or anthrax or a bomb :'<

I'd put the models under a blacklight before touching them.

I have been thinking...If I take on my BA assault squad a flamer pistol on the sergent, do I get 1 extra attack?-like for another ccw.Assault squad with flamer in sergent,and with the numer of attack intact..could be...something


PS: you willl find here..on the bottom of the page... stats of the BA and wargear http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=561867

The new BA sound pretty over the top to me, but then I thought tyranids were pretty broken when I first heard the rumors too, so I will reserve judgment. I am, however, feeling some serious nerd rage on behalf of my poor ordinary space marines. Lets see - what do BA have that I don't? Dreadnaughts as troops, FNP and FC everywhere, flying stuff, monstrous creature, fast vehicles etc. Ok, they are supposed to be assault oriented where I am supposed to be "balanced". Their tac squads are identical. They get sternguard. Their devs are probably better due to FNP shenanigans. Heck, they even get tech marines. So basically if you play vanilla marines its for the ability to run away (combat tactics), a moderately cool artillery piece (thunderfire), and one or two librarian powers that BA don't get. (Null field and gate being the only really important ones...) You can build 90% of a vanilla list out of the BA codex- but the reverse certainly isn't true.

Kestral,

To give the Devs FNP, you have to make sure a 50pt model stays within 6" of them. To get Non-scoring Dreds as troops you have to take another Non-scoring Troop choice. Our fast vehicles are priced higher, than your slower vehicles so we can out manouver you somewhat, you can bring more toys to play with. I don't think we have the option to make our vehicles slower to save on points either, so we have to pay the higher prices.

I'm not saying its necessarily better, just more interesting. I don't think you will see many BA armies that look like Ultramarines armies - but the fact is that almost anything that might be useful from the vanilla list, they can get. I think they should have preserved as much of the "uniqueness" of vanilla as they could.

This may be a bit off topic, but I wanted you guys to check out my scratch built Storm Raven. I figured it has been rumored for some time and I just could not wait for the official version.

See what you guys think on the project log thread below. Thanks anyway and sorry for taking it off topic in a way.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/284421.page

P.S., still alot of work to be done on her but it will be ready for Adepticon.

Thanks for looking

Romeo

kestral wrote:I'm not saying its necessarily better, just more interesting. I don't think you will see many BA armies that look like Ultramarines armies - but the fact is that almost anything that might be useful from the vanilla list, they can get. I think they should have preserved as much of the "uniqueness" of vanilla as they could.

Yep, thats my biggest complaint about the book. They didn't really take anything out. Unless you have a strong attachment to a special character, I really can't see any reason to use the normal SM book. The BA book still gives you all the basic options, plus all the OTT upgrades.

At least with Space wolves, they actually took stuff away to help balance out the book, help actually make them a divergent chapter. BA are nothing more than Smurfs painted red with an extra large helping of toys. Hardly a divergent chapter in the least.

Well, they took out Combat Tactics, the special rule that defines normal Marines. And while Blood Angels have access to many similar units, there are actually great differences in how each should be used.

kestral wrote:Dreadnaughts as troops,

yup, vehicles that are not scoring that are bought with another overpriced nonscoring troops choice. while i personally like the death co dreads as a troop and will use them with an el cheapo death co, they're hardly overpowering.

kestral wrote:
FNP and FC everywhere

at the low low price of 50-100pts per model per 6" radius. for it to be everywhere, you'll have to spend 150-300 for 1 wound models.

kestral wrote:
monstrous creature, fast vehicles

the fast i'll give you with the retort that they're charged for it. it's not free. also, there isn't a single monstrous creature in the book. i'm assuming you mean mephiston who has a similar statline to one but doesn't get the advantages like 2d6 armor pen and move through cover yet can't join squads. and did you see his cost? 275pt IIRC. i'll never take him.

kestral wrote:
Their devs are probably better due to FNP shenanigans

answered above by another poster.

kestral wrote:
Heck, they even get tech marines.

yes, they get another expensive 1 wound marine statline model. but not the master of the forge.

kestral wrote:
So basically if you play vanilla marines its for the ability to run away (combat tactics), a moderately cool artillery piece (thunderfire), and one or two librarian powers that BA don't get.

um, then there's bikes as troops, the ability to fleet/be stubborn/simply choose your morale result/outflank/score with sternguard/twinlink ALL your flamers and meltas, the master of the forge with his beamer and limited dread spam, extended troop capacity transports, cheap th/ss termies, scoring sternguard, land speeder storms, ironclad dreads... and that's what i can think of off hand. with BA you have one real tactic - rush towards and assault. if you're not doing that then youre paying extra for things that you're not using. with regular marines you can do an assault heavy force (not as good as BA though) but still do one heck of a shooty army. the sky is NOT falling.

Marine players will return back to their codex after they have played a few games. The main reason being is that players whether bring extra units then have the fast vehicle rule.

Perhaps, but you can only use ONE of those special options - and I personally think that while its good that they included them for those people who played those chapters, it doesn't add that much to the core list.

Master of the forge I grant you, - ironclads don't seem that different from Fusarios though, Th/SS costing 5 pts more isn't a serious difference.

It looks like BA will have some serious shooting options - as least as good as regular marines, as far as I can tell in theory hammer land. People won't use them much I suspect, but that doesn't mean they aren't as good as the vanilla options. I suppose you lose slightly with a 3 whirlwind list costing slightly more in exchange for being fast - but that seems minor.

Also, I think we'll see some horrifing deathstars with the sanguinary priests. Who cares if his upgrades are expensive - you never want him to fight anyway. What really irks me is the 6" radius thing. As a squad upgrade, he wouldn't be bad. Perhaps most importantly, he can move around - you can bolster whatever unit is most critical to your battle plan. Love to have apothecaries be able to do that.

To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

kestral wrote:Perhaps, but you can only use ONE of those special options - and I personally think that while its good that they included them for those people who played those chapters, it doesn't add that much to the core list.

To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

i think their point with combat tactics with the marine dex was to have an upgradeable mechanic to simulate the 1000 chapters around with their differing heritages/traditions. nothing is stopping GW from coming out with additional special characters for lesser known chapters and if it were 3rd edition GW they would have come out with a half dozen by now, lol. vanilla marines don't necessarily get the best of the best in rules/stuff but they get the ultimate choice in what to take.

as for the last part, i agree. the BA's have always been cooler. it's part of the vampire theme, mwuhaaa!!

kestral wrote:To repeat, I'm not saying that BA are that much better than regular marines, just cooler in their stuff.

Is it really cooler or just new? I think people are really underestimating the extra point cost.


A.Terminators with th/ss- 25 extra points
3 rhinos-45-extra points

That alone is 70 points if you take any other vehicle you add on to that! Its 70 points that means less wargear or put it this way meltaguns are 5 points, combi weapons are 10, the new pistols are either 5- 10. For a BA rhino you can get a normal space marine rhino and use the extra points to buy a meltagun and a combi-meltagun.

I rather pay 45 pts to move 3 units 18", then next turn get out and assault a unit that was up to 32" or so away at the start

Paying small points for an ability the other army doesnt even have is a lot more useful than not having the ability

Dont underestimate 18" tank shocks either or rhino missiles once the unit is deployed

Sounds like someone who doesnt want to pay extra points to include a dok in a nob squad to give them feel no pain.. because its 'more expensive" despite also being better

Well, if you can't beat 'em join em. Kestrals are a bird chapter, right? Obviously all bird like chapters deserve cool stuff. Say hello to my "really mad apothecaries" who will be giving my drop pod squads and dev squads FNP and the cheaper vanguard dudes/assault termies the same + FC when they drop on the locators. I'm pretty sure I can run my entire list out of the BA codex without changing anything else - oh, and my assault squads will be scoring units now.
; ) Granted, it was a fairly generic drop pod list, but still, it does seem like you ought not to be able to build the same list out of two codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All marine whining aside, I suppose if GW can get us to buy new stuff because its "cooler" rather than "more powerful" thats better, right? Tyranids really inspired me to get more models, without them being overpowered.

Kirasu wrote:I rather pay 45 pts to move 3 units 18", then next turn get out and assault a unit that was up to 32" or so away at the start

Paying small points for an ability the other army doesnt even have is a lot more useful than not having the ability

Dont underestimate 18" tank shocks either or rhino missiles once the unit is deployed

Sounds like someone who doesnt want to pay extra points to include a dok in a nob squad to give them feel no pain.. because its 'more expensive" despite also being better

You value the fast vehicle rule more then extra equiptment or other units, I dont think everyone will feel that way. Also marine have the same stat line and wargear its impossible for them to make codexes that the other codex can not make a similar list, thats not their job its yours.

ou value the fast vehicle rule more then extra equiptment or other units, I dont think everyone will feel that way.

Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

Also marine have the same stat line and wargear its impossible for them to make codexes that the other codex can not make a similar list, thats not their job its yours.

By giving everyone close combat weapons as well as pistols the space wolves pulled that one off pretty well. But then thats something all marines should have anyway.

CKO wrote:

That alone is 70 points if you take any other vehicle you add on to that! Its 70 points that means less wargear or put it this way meltaguns are 5 points, combi weapons are 10, the new pistols are either 5- 10. For a BA rhino you can get a normal space marine rhino and use the extra points to buy a meltagun and a combi-meltagun.

That is a fair point, but do there really seem to be many cases like that? Even adding "slow rhinos" to the things SM get that DA don't, there don't seem to be much parity between the codexes in terms of the number of options.

IMO, non-JP DC aren't bad, but will likely need Tantalus Lander / Storm Harbinger as Transport to be effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:Everyone good at this game will. The fast ruling, especially on transports like the rhino (whose primary job is to transport meltaguns or blitz, not to provide a bunker for the unit inside) or tanks like predators (Which get very poor use out of sponsons without the fast rule) are improved immeasurably by the upgrade. The razorbacks and whirlwinds less so, but making rhinos fast makes them one of the better transports available (even more so) and making predators fast makes them useful.

Which leads to a different play style right? If you look at it in a vacuum then 15 points for fast vehicles is a great deal, however if you try to take advantage of fast vehicles you will spend anywhere from 100-150 points for that speed. Meaning your giving up alot of wargear or one less unit considering that marines already have small armies you will have a very small army.

How are BA transport lists any worse than Vanilla ones?

Try this at 1850 with Vanilla...it wont be as good.

HQ

Captain Twin LC's

Honour Guard-2xFlamer, Power Weapon, 2x LC's; Rhino

TROOPS

(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas
(5)Assault Marines-Flamer; Razorback- Las/Plas

HEAVY SUPPORT

Tri-Lascannon Pred
Tri-Lascannon Pred
Tri-Lascannon Pred

-1850 Even

...all fast and CHEAPER TRANSPORTS offsetting the extra cost of the 15pt more expensive FAST Preds.


The key to making transports cost effective and awesome in the BA dex is the 35pt Assault marine discount.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, non-JP DC aren't bad, but will likely need Tantalus Lander / Storm Harbinger as Transport to be effective.

If you have the gunship for a transport, why do you need the jump packs? It's an assault vehicle and provides the additional mobility that the jump packs would. All this does is waste a lot of points, and limits the size of your unit so their impact in close combat is a lot less significant and they are easier to overwhelm and kill.

As for the whole transport conversation, I'm not a fan of razorbacks with upgraded weapons. They are way expensive considering how easy it is to silence/destroy an AV11 vehicle. I'm also not sold on the tri-las predators, either, given that each is 180 points. If you're planning on abusing the Assault Marine discount, you could purchase god-hammer land raiders for only 35 points more.