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**Trimarius**

Creeping Dementia wrote:

Worse than the Index, needs soup to handle Knights and other competitive armies. Literally, take the index and nerf all the tactics that Faith powers used to allow, add a good strat, and then you have the Beta Codex. At least it's only a Beta.

It doesn't seem that bad. The big blob of 3++ everything seems like it could be hard to shift. It might be a little dull, but that's a lot of meat to chew through as it slogs across the field. Then you can switch to 2+ to hit on whatever units you need (including those exorcists) to deal with the enemy.

100pt dreads with eight 3+ S10 -3 D3 attacks and two heavy flamers that are 4+/5+++ (so better than a 3+) seem pretty good.

It does look a little limited for choice, right now, but they may be holding new models back for a bit of a surprise factor/impulse buy when the release comes out. Runs a bit counter to the whole beta test thing, but I can see GW doing just that anyway.

**IanVanCheese**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
It is pretty sad that Heroes of Rynn's World (one of the Crimson Fists Stratagems) is infinitely better than Bolter Drill. 1. It can be used on Hellblasters and Intercessors. 2. It generates extra hits, not extra shots. So you could use it on a big squad of Hellblasters with Pedro Kantor, overcharge your plasma incinerators, and cause a ton of wounds. Pedro helps prevent losing models and turning some misses into 6s. Put an LT by for added destruction. For added fun, use this Stratagem in conjunction with Paragons of Dorn if someone shot at you.

Now if only I could put Indomitus Crusaders on the same Detachment. The Rapid Fire Stratagem combined with this would make Intercessors very shooty. 4 Shots at 15", 6s generating additional hits? Not too shabby for 2CP.

Battalion for your intercessors, Spearhead for your Hellblasters. Job done.

**casvalremdeikun**

IanVanCheese wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
It is pretty sad that Heroes of Rynn's World (one of the Crimson Fists Stratagems) is infinitely better than Bolter Drill. 1. It can be used on Hellblasters and Intercessors. 2. It generates extra hits, not extra shots. So you could use it on a big squad of Hellblasters with Pedro Kantor, overcharge your plasma incinerators, and cause a ton of wounds. Pedro helps prevent losing models and turning some misses into 6s. Put an LT by for added destruction. For added fun, use this Stratagem in conjunction with Paragons of Dorn if someone shot at you.

Now if only I could put Indomitus Crusaders on the same Detachment. The Rapid Fire Stratagem combined with this would make Intercessors very shooty. 4 Shots at 15", 6s generating additional hits? Not too shabby for 2CP.

Battalion for your intercessors, Spearhead for your Hellblasters. Job done.

I might have the points to make two Battalions and a Spearhead. So that would be interesting.

**Nevelon**

Do we have full details on the intercessor datasheet yet?

**RandyMcStab**

The Winters SEO video on the book said they get chainswords and power fists as options. That's all.

**casvalremdeikun**

Nevelon wrote:
Do we have full details on the intercessor datasheet yet?

Every video review I have watched has skipped right over the sheets. It is annoying AF.

**Nevelon**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Nevelon wrote:
Do we have full details on the intercessor datasheet yet?
Every video review I have watched has skipped right over the sheets. It is annoying AF.

I saw one where he went into detail on some of the other datasheets (for the new guys) but didn’t go into detail on the old ones. Page in the video, but couldn’t read anything.

Edit:
Mixed up my videos.

This one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qY8iokLh0

Around the 1 minute mark has the page

**Crazyterran**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Nevelon wrote:
Do we have full details on the intercessor datasheet yet?
Every video review I have watched has skipped right over the sheets. It is annoying AF.

The change is it lets all Sergeants take a Chainsword, Power Sword, or Power Fist.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

axisofentropy wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
So a Servo Harness is now less than what a Servo Arm costs now.

Yes. I will take my extra power fist, flamer, and plasma pistol for one point less than what servo arms cost now.
Aren't Servo Arms zero now?

Yes, A harness used to cost 40, it now costs 11 for two Servo Arms, a PP and a Flamer.

**casvalremdeikun**

I just had an epiphany. Combine Bolter Drill and Heroes of Rynn's World.

Bolter Drill has every 6+ to hit generate an additional to hit roll. Every 6+ to hit counts as two hits for Heroes of Rynn's World. So every 6+ counts as two hits and lets you roll an additional to-hit. And 6s on those to-hit rolls count as two hits. So a 10-man Intercessor Squad can put down a ton of Bolt Rifle shots. If it combined with the Rapid Fire Stratagem? Holy hell... 4 Shots (6s count as two hits and generate an additional to-hit, 6s count as two hits). If you roll lucky, you could be putting dozens of hits on something. Bonus points for doing it on your opponent's turn if you want.

Even without the Rapid Fire Stratagem (I am not convinced you can combine two Specialist Detachments), it could still be crazy.

**Trickstick**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Even without the Rapid Fire Stratagem (I am not convinced you can combine two Specialist Detachments), it could still be crazy.

You can't. A detachment can only be upgraded with a single specialism.

**Mr Morden**

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
I'm a bit miffed that a powerfist is 9 points when an identical ork powerklaw is 13. And before people jump in and say that you pay more because a nob is S5, then why is an ork rokkit launcha 1 point mor than a plasma gun now, with the vastly inferior BS? You shouldn't have it both ways. Maybe orks will get updated in the next FAQ but I was under the assumption the basically wrote CA and the ork 'dex at the same time, so they should've seen this coming. See also: Ork warbikers/SM bikes, Flamers/ork burnas, Heavy stubbers/big shootas etc..

You won't be satisfied with my answer, but I'll explain to you why that is.

Points are not decided by a 1:1 ratio - "Oh it does the same thing so it's the same amount of points."

The model is taken into consideration. What the model can do. What the model is augmented by (stratagems, auras, army traits, etc). All of those factor in to that point cost and more.

But let's do a comparison just to have one.

When you say "Nob", I assume you mean a Boss Nob in a Boyz unit. By powerfist, I assume you mean a Sergeant in a TAC squad.

When you compare the two, the Boss Nob has:

1W more than the Sergeant.

Hits on S10 rather than S8. A small, but important difference when attacking things that are T8.

Gets three attacks as opposed to the Sergeant's 2.

The Sergeant gets a better armor save (3+) and better shooting. However, I will say this. Orkz don't rely on armor saves. They rely on bodies, so comparing the armor save is almost moot here. And of course shooting isn't a big deal for them either.

I hope this helps.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Voss wrote:
Meh. Acts of faith seem highly dubious unless you grab the [subfaction] trait and stack simulacrums everywhere.

Real issue is the Acts of Faith aren't good enough to even want to stack simulacrums or take Orders that boost chances of getting them off.

For anyone familiar with Index Sisters, very quick summary:
Most things are the same except the following bullet points.

Faith powers are generally worse, and you'll get them off less often.

Little to no substantial point changes.

Penitent Engines do better damage, but still too expensive and no way to get them into combat

A couple good strats, and one really good one (Blessed ammo). Unfortunately some of the strats are used for Faith based stuff, and faith is pretty rubbish, so some strats you'll likely never use.

Celestine is worse, Gemini now a unit of characters but not absolutely anchored to Celestine (they are a separate unit).

Repressor isn't in the Dex, will still have to use the Index.

Warlord Traits are not great.

1-2 decent relics, nothing that really stands out.

Overall Beta Codex grade: Bleh.

Worse than the Index, needs soup to handle Knights and other competitive armies. Literally, take the index and nerf all the tactics that Faith powers used to allow, add a good strat, and then you have the Beta Codex. At least it's only a Beta.

I feel it should be obvious, but from a designer's point of view, it is always easier to buff rather than to nerf things.

From a player's point of view, it feels bad to get nerfed, rather than to get buffed (obviously).

So it shouldn't come as a surprise to see that the SoB codex is rather, meh. That's why it is in beta and they're asking for feedback, like what you have here.

Shame they took all the aspects of the current dex force and fethed them all and then could not be bothered to even put into units they already make a fething model for - Canoness with Jump pack - I hope they spend more time on the models than they did with this gak.

St Celestine - nerfed
Acts of Faith - nerfed into a waste of time - Image if they now reset Power from Pain or Guard Orders as a roll, limited them and then made it so one of each per turn. Then they base the entire army around a crapy mechanic! Awesome.
Nothing new
No points drops apparently
Order Convinctions only work on Infantry and most of them are also to do with the crappy AOF system
Deny the Witch is laughable still.

Hopefully they will take on board some feedback but i am not hopeful when you look at the starting point.

Its obvious how bad it is as all the complaints about the one strat being OP have dried up now its clear how much else is total gak in the new dex.

**casvalremdeikun**

Trickstick wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Even without the Rapid Fire Stratagem (I am not convinced you can combine two Specialist Detachments), it could still be crazy.

You can't. A detachment can only be upgraded with a single specialism.

Well that answers that. Oh well. Still a fun combination even without combining them. Too bad Intercessors can't access Masterful Marksmanship like in Kill Team. That would make for some even better antics.

So far, no mention has been made whatsoever about -1 to Hit Traits becoming +1 Cover instead. Sounds like another rumor mill pipe dream.

**Trickstick**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
So far, no mention has been made whatsoever about -1 to Hit Traits becoming +1 Cover instead. Sounds like another rumor mill pipe dream.

Yeah, went the way of the 5pt Guardsmen. That is why I think more people should be excited over that auto-hit stratagem.

**casvalremdeikun**

Trickstick wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
So far, no mention has been made whatsoever about -1 to Hit Traits becoming +1 Cover instead. Sounds like another rumor mill pipe dream.

Yeah, went the way of the 5pt Guardsmen. That is why I think more people should be excited over that auto-hit stratagem.

It would be better if Deathwatch could use it.

**Mr Morden**

Trickstick wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
So far, no mention has been made whatsoever about -1 to Hit Traits becoming +1 Cover instead. Sounds like another rumor mill pipe dream.

Yeah, went the way of the 5pt Guardsmen. That is why I think more people should be excited over that auto-hit stratagem.

They did the opposite apparently - made lots of Guard stuff cheaper, vet down to 5pts as well apparently becuase they also have the load of formation cheese to add to the mass of other cheese in Viglis for the "Chosen" armies.

and then because they like kicking puppies apparently, they fethed up the entire Beta Dex for Sisters for gaks and giggles.

**Trickstick**

Mr Morden wrote:
They did the opposite apparently - made lots of Guard stuff cheaper, vet down to 5pts as well apparently becuase they also have the load of formation cheese to add to the mass of other cheese in Viglis for the "Chosen" armies.

Well when everything goes down, anything that didn't is sort of nerfed.

I wouldn't describe the formations as cheese at all. I've only really looked at the Guard ones, which seem pretty tame really. The use of stratagems limits the scaling. I think the Scion Drop is the best one, and it only really works on a single valkyrie. It's not like people were taking loads of valkyries anyway.

**buddha**

Do we have leaks for any of the FW Imperial Knights? Or are there none?

**Ice_can**

buddha wrote:
Do we have leaks for any of the FW Imperial Knights? Or are there none?

it was in one of the pictures but only three or four listed I think it was only the Magera, lancer and Polhpophrnone. (Apologies for butchering the names)

**Asmodai**

Ice_can wrote:
buddha wrote:
Do we have leaks for any of the FW Imperial Knights? Or are there none?
it was in one of the pictures but only three or four listed I think it was only the Magera, lancer and Polhpophrnone. (Apologies for butchering the names)

Castigator's base cost didn't change, but the Bolt Cannon got a 70 point cut, so that one too.

**Mr Morden**

Trickstick wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
They did the opposite apparently - made lots of Guard stuff cheaper, vet down to 5pts as well apparently becuase they also have the load of formation cheese to add to the mass of other cheese in Viglis for the "Chosen" armies.

Well when everything goes down, anything that didn't is sort of nerfed.

I wouldn't describe the formations as cheese at all. I've only really looked at the Guard ones, which seem pretty tame really. The use of stratagems limits the scaling. I think the Scion Drop is the best one, and it only really works on a single valkyrie. It's not like people were taking loads of valkyries anyway.

Yep Guard plenty of points reductions - even fething plasma got reduced. Valkyries got a point drop as well. And its not like artillery needed any more bonuses.

**AnonAmbientLight**

Mr Morden wrote:
Shame they took all the aspects of the current dex force and fethed them all and then could not be bothered to even put into units they already make a fething model for - Canoness with Jump pack - I hope they spend more time on the models than they did with this gak.

St Celestine - nerfed
Acts of Faith - nerfed into a waste of time - Image if they now reset Power from Pain or Guard Orders as a roll, limited them and then made it so one of each per turn. Then they base the entire army around a crapy mechanic! Awesome.
Nothing new
No points drops apparently
Order Convinctions only work on Infantry and most of them are also to do with the crappy AOF system
Deny the Witch is laughable still.

Hopefully they will take on board some feedback but i am not hopeful when you look at the starting point.

Its obvious how bad it is as all the complaints about the one strat being OP have dried up now its clear how much else is total gak in the new dex.

It's a pretty simple concept. In order to have a starting point you have to, you know, have a starting point. Often times the best sort of starting point for things like this is to start "weak" and then buff as you go.

Imagine it in reverse if that's easier for you. Imagine if SoB is too strong and everything in the book is too good. Where do you go from there? How can you even properly gauge what to bring it down to and is that an effective and efficient way of doing so?

Of course not. Buffing an under performing unit is infinitely easier to pin point that nerfing an over performing unit.

Which is why it seems bad to you.

Also, small point to make, a lot of times things on paper are weaker / stronger than they appear.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Were there any changes to the Kytan or other chaos superheavies? I can't find the pictures anymore.

**xttz**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Were there any changes to the Kytan or other chaos superheavies? I can't find the pictures anymore.

I posted a link on the previous page

**Drudge Dreadnought**

xttz wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Were there any changes to the Kytan or other chaos superheavies? I can't find the pictures anymore.

I posted a link on the previous page

Thanks! Looks like their gun went from 184 to 80. So their total cost went from 514 to 410. That puts them enough below the Lord of Skulls that they might be useful.

**Mr Morden**

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Shame they took all the aspects of the current dex force and fethed them all and then could not be bothered to even put into units they already make a fething model for - Canoness with Jump pack - I hope they spend more time on the models than they did with this gak.

St Celestine - nerfed
Acts of Faith - nerfed into a waste of time - Image if they now reset Power from Pain or Guard Orders as a roll, limited them and then made it so one of each per turn. Then they base the entire army around a crapy mechanic! Awesome.
Nothing new
No points drops apparently
Order Convinctions only work on Infantry and most of them are also to do with the crappy AOF system
Deny the Witch is laughable still.

Hopefully they will take on board some feedback but i am not hopeful when you look at the starting point.

Its obvious how bad it is as all the complaints about the one strat being OP have dried up now its clear how much else is total gak in the new dex.

It's a pretty simple concept. In order to have a starting point you have to, you know, have a starting point. Often times the best sort of starting point for things like this is to start "weak" and then buff as you go.

Imagine it in reverse if that's easier for you. Imagine if SoB is too strong and everything in the book is too good. Where do you go from there? How can you even properly gauge what to bring it down to and is that an effective and efficient way of doing so?

Of course not. Buffing an under performing unit is infinitely easier to pin point that nerfing an over performing unit.

Which is why it seems bad to you.

Also, small point to make, a lot of times things on paper are weaker / stronger than they appear.

Sorry disagree - its just as easy to reduce strong units as buff weak units

They already had a starting point in the Index force, its not like they strated from scratch - but they decided that rather than build on that and adjust it they would feth it up.

Whilst at exactly the same time boosted other armies such - oh yeah Tau.....is that why it seems all fine to you?

They did not reduce problem units in CA - eg Knights or Infantry squads or indeed fix other problem units that were underperfoming.

And your "small point" - so which bits of the new dex are you especially inmpressed with in terms of blance or playability?

**Trickstick**

Mr Morden wrote:
Sorry disagree - its just as easy to reduce strong units as buff weak units

Buffing weak units makes the general player base much happier than nerfing strong units. Look at all of the people that are really happy that their favourite, yet not great, unit has gone down in cost. The game effect is the same but people are happier. I bet sales of certain units have increased since the leaks a well.

Plus, maybe they didn't fix the strong and weak units. But if they moved them both towards the centre, it is a step in the right direction.

**Creeping Dementia**

Trickstick wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Sorry disagree - its just as easy to reduce strong units as buff weak units

Buffing weak units makes the general player base much happier than nerfing strong units. Look at all of the people that are really happy that their favourite, yet not great, unit has gone down in cost. The game effect is the same but people are happier. I bet sales of certain units have increased since the leaks a well.

Plus, maybe they didn't fix the strong and weak units. But if they moved them both towards the centre, it is a step in the right direction.

It could be easier to buff weak units, sure. (Grey Knights players have a couple threads going on that disagree though)
Big thing is we already had a baseline for Sisters units. We already had a starting point, the beta Codex is not about establishing a baseline. The units and costs are practically exactly the same as the index. The only real changes were the adjuncts: Faith powers, Strats, Warlord traits, and Relics. Those adjunts when taken as a whole are definitely worse than the baseline we just came from (the Index). Because the adjuncts effect the units, and they do less, the move hasn't been toward the center, it's shifted everything to the weaker side of the spectrum.

Now if Faith Acts had gotten weaker while at the same time individual units had gotten better, or costs had come down, then balance might have been maintained or shifted toward the center, but that's not what happened.

**kurhanik**

Huh, so I just looked at the leak for the Tempestus formation, and it includes Valkyries. Is this basically confirmation that auxilia do not break the Tempestus keyword for their Regimental Doctrines? After all, if this is not the case, then the Valkyries in the formation would be actively removing the Stormtrooper Doctrine from the infantry.

Trickstick wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Sorry disagree - its just as easy to reduce strong units as buff weak units

Buffing weak units makes the general player base much happier than nerfing strong units. Look at all of the people that are really happy that their favourite, yet not great, unit has gone down in cost. The game effect is the same but people are happier. I bet sales of certain units have increased since the leaks a well.

Plus, maybe they didn't fix the strong and weak units. But if they moved them both towards the centre, it is a step in the right direction.

The one issue with focusing more on buffs than nerfs is that you can end up in a race to the bottom. Not a problem if done well, but if done poorly it can make a mess.

**Wayniac**

kurhanik wrote:
Huh, so I just looked at the leak for the Tempestus formation, and it includes Valkyries. Is this basically confirmation that auxilia do not break the Tempestus keyword for their Regimental Doctrines? After all, if this is not the case, then the Valkyries in the formation would be actively removing the Stormtrooper Doctrine from the infantry.

GW being GW there's a 50% chance of it being either way. It's likely they didn't even consider that.

**Trickstick**

kurhanik wrote:
Huh, so I just looked at the leak for the Tempestus formation, and it includes Valkyries. Is this basically confirmation that auxilia do not break the Tempestus keyword for their Regimental Doctrines? After all, if this is not the case, then the Valkyries in the formation would be actively removing the Stormtrooper Doctrine from the infantry.

They never did! Literally the paragraph after the one detailing them losing their doctrine is about how auxilla don't prevent things from losing their doctrine! I was always really confused about this problem.