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Azuza001 wrote:
I always find world eaters to be overkill myself (and i have a world eaters army). They just do so good in cc that those extra attacks were never worth it. I ended up running them as renegades for the advance and charge which i always found to be more useful. The only reason i ever find myself looking back at world eaters is karn, that guy is just too cool not to use. Want to scare your opponent? Put kharn down next to 2 forgefiends. Now put a herald of khorne with the blood crown near them. Thats 16 str 8 ap-1 2d shots that wound rolls of 6 generate additonal attacks and you get to reroll all failed hits. Plus you get the added bonus that no one will want to charge that while kharn is sitting there and if someone does charge kharn isnt likely to hurt a forgefiend much if/when a swing goes wild.

I have used that setup quite effectively vs a dark angel player locally, with the beta bolter rules he went hard into raven wing. He was using a large 8 man squad of bolters and speed of the raven strat to boost and get the 4++ and still shoot and 2 black knight bike squads boosting firing their assault plasma. That stopped him dead. Does a number on terms with storm shields too.

Very cool. I may steal. I just need 1 more forgefiend and Kharn. I usually go with the Champions for the rerolls due to cost. I will say that yes the extra attacks do seem like overkill by man does every opponent I face fear that rhino or landraider with those bezerkers. I was able to take out a land raider and rhino on 1 charge against a Dark Angels player and he rolled horribly on his disembark. He has never forgotten that and sends EVERYTHING at them now.

Gangland wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I always find world eaters to be overkill myself (and i have a world eaters army). They just do so good in cc that those extra attacks were never worth it. I ended up running them as renegades for the advance and charge which i always found to be more useful. The only reason i ever find myself looking back at world eaters is karn, that guy is just too cool not to use. Want to scare your opponent? Put kharn down next to 2 forgefiends. Now put a herald of khorne with the blood crown near them. Thats 16 str 8 ap-1 2d shots that wound rolls of 6 generate additonal attacks and you get to reroll all failed hits. Plus you get the added bonus that no one will want to charge that while kharn is sitting there and if someone does charge kharn isnt likely to hurt a forgefiend much if/when a swing goes wild.

I have used that setup quite effectively vs a dark angel player locally, with the beta bolter rules he went hard into raven wing. He was using a large 8 man squad of bolters and speed of the raven strat to boost and get the 4++ and still shoot and 2 black knight bike squads boosting firing their assault plasma. That stopped him dead. Does a number on terms with storm shields too.

Very cool. I may steal. I just need 1 more forgefiend and Kharn. I usually go with the Champions for the rerolls due to cost. I will say that yes the extra attacks do seem like overkill by man does every opponent I face fear that rhino or landraider with those bezerkers. I was able to take out a land raider and rhino on 1 charge against a Dark Angels player and he rolled horribly on his disembark. He has never forgotten that and sends EVERYTHING at them now.

A Rhino full of bezerkers is 240 points and I've seen it draw fire over Magnus and 3 newblits. People are really scared of them which is great as a distraction from juicier targets!

Azuza001 wrote:
Are people playing their oblits at 115 or 65? At 115 they seem over priced when a venom crawler is 15 pts more, but 65 they are stupid good. I have been using mine at 115 because i dont want to cause an issue with my gaming group.

Come on gw, at least give us THAT answer, why are you making us wait for the big FAQ for this?!?

Maybe they are waiting for some info to see what they should ultimately be priced at?

85pts, 95 pts, in that area is my vote. like i have said, 115 is too close to venom crawler levels and 65 is silly crazy low

On the subject of Oblits: can’t decide if you want to EC double tap, or be an unshiftable Gnarlmaw camper & Epidemius charger?

Be Black Legion, use Chosen of the Pantheon, and do both.

Bonus: have a Crimson Crown to hand and your VOTLW-increased Wound rolls gain death to the false everyone

Tried out 3 thunderhammer jump pack captain in a Host Raptorial detachment. They were good! But I think jump pack captain with relic would be not bad too. Both have pros and cons. I tried out norlilith crown too. Not bad. I got to field a few predators and hellbrutes in my army. Not very mobile though. Abby was utterly amazing at fighting and tanks good damage too. Really really need to get into combat with him so that he doesn't waste his points. My Abby helped me go toe to toe with 3 custodes bike and 3 thunderhammer captains!

Can we talk MSU CSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.

To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.

Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.

Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.

Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.

Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.

Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?

 grouchoben wrote:
Can we talk MSU CSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.

To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.

Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.

Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.

Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.

Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.

Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?

I'm also thinking about this, I think auto cannons might be the answer, 10 points a pop and if you have say 4-5 min squads those shots will add up. I was also wondering about missile launchers, flexible weapon, but double the cost.

Personally I'll take a min bat for red corsair and then alpha for the rest, currently trying to figure out the list.

 grouchoben wrote:
Can we talk MSU CSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.

To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.

Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.

Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.

Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.

Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.

Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?

Yes, I have a few thoughts to add. A MSU CSM army that emphasizes heavy weapons might be viable.

I've been testing a Black Legion list, a scaled down version of the gunline I've been running most of 8th edition. It has 6x 5-man CSM squads with a lascannon plus 3 Havoc squads with 2 lascannons each along with Abaddon for rerolls. This part of the list clocks in around 1200 points, still trying to settle on the rest.

In general, what I've observed is:

- MSU screws with split fire. Creates issues with overkill for opponents, lots of wasted shots.

- MSU screws with target priority. Opponents prioritize things like Helbrutes, Hellforged Predators, etc over troops even when troops carry better guns.

- MSU screws with charges. I think more about defense against multi-charges and consolidation. There's a 'speedbump' aspect to movement when units are close to each other, it's a little different than screening. You're not trying to cover an area with a string of troops, you're presenting a target positioned to prevent other units from getting locked in combat.

- MSU makes you think about auras more, since you don't see as much benefit from Stratagems and psychic powers. I'm looking at beatsticks that can buff other units to maximize their effectiveness. Master of Executions, Dark Apostles probably have places in this list.

I appreciate an army that fights from range. The 2 factions that have been roasting me lately are Imperial Knights and Dark Eldar, so I've been testing against them.

- Against Imperial Knights - giving them too many units to target reduces their impact on the game. Sure, they can blow away a unit of two each turn, but you still have a lot of stuff that can hurt them from a distance spread out across multiple units. Facing a list with 2 of them plus a Guard detachment, I was able to kill one the second turn and one the third turn. Ultimately lost the game to infantry and mortars, but could see what to do different next time (Bloodletter Bomb would have fixed it.)

- Against Dark Eldar - Disintegrator cannons are great against Predators, they are not so great against CSM squads. Again, the number of units reduces what your opponent can do with Raiders and Venoms, there was a lot of overkill especially from these units. There was a Cronos unit that charged one CSM squad and killed it before the rest of my army pounded them with lascannons. Won the game, but this was against I've lost to before (so I kind of knew what to expect.)

So my early impressions can be summed up as: MSU CSM succeed by reducing the impact of high-power, high-volume weapons common to 8th edition. While individual units suffer from the frailties of power armor in 8th, collectively, they can present an effective response to high-order threats in the game (especially at range.)

mrtomski wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Can we talk MSU CSMs for a minute? With cultists getting hit with the nerf (thunder)hammer, we are in the uncomfortable position of not having a competitive troops choice anymore. CSM probably come closest now, paying 15pts for markedly better stats.

To that end, what's your favoured squad composition? All said and done, I'll probably be running 68pt squads an awful lot (combi+chainaxe for the Champ), but there are a few other stand-out possibilities. Autocannon, Lascannon and 2 plasma, each clocking in at 75, 90 & 87pts, assuming no champ upgrades.

Of the three more expensive options, they each have a role to play. Auto is cheap as chips, and you won't mind the occasional -1 to hit from moving with the squad, because you weren't expecting it to do too much anyway.

Lascannon is a proper consideration now imo, as our havocs are rocking their new toy, and can't take the ablative wounds you generally want for lascannon infantry. Moving is a waste though, and you probably want rerolls if possible. Static but capable choice.

Double plas has the advantage of being able to move and shoot with no penalty, and can threaten a lot of units within 12". But they desperately need baby-sitting, and as soon as they are in optima range, are liable to be locked in CC.

Finally, it looks like Alpha Legion are still top dogs for our troops, conferring much-needed survivability, and a 9" extra deployment, so you can start a team in optimal position/range.

Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions they can add?

I'm also thinking about this, I think auto cannons might be the answer, 10 points a pop and if you have say 4-5 min squads those shots will add up. I was also wondering about missile launchers, flexible weapon, but double the cost.

Personally I'll take a min bat for red corsair and then alpha for the rest, currently trying to figure out the list.

In my ast match 1250 pts i did run the following MSU and a 10 man squad aswell due to beein Red corsair.

For 75 pts with a AC you get a squad that throws out 10 (12 if you also give out a combibolter for 77pts) with 3+ on 24" range.
The Autocannon as a multitool works better then the reaper for me, but that could just be because my opponent a lot of DE transports.
They also get ignored or overkilled.

CP is also a big thing and why not generate CP and have a swiss army knive unit aswell.

Auto canon is OK because it's cheap but it is not an impressive weapon overall, wh9ich is fine only because it's cheap. The reaper is 4 times the shots for double the cost. Since the army needs early game screen removal for the heavy hitting things like deep strikers and advancing demon engines, it's pretty clear what the optimal weapon is. The autocanon has the range advantage, but it isn't as ideal as you would think. With beta bolter discipline your aiming to get within 24" range anyway.

But this as always brings up a bigger point. If you have 1-2 units designated to zone denial and objective squatting in your backfield, take a cheap auto canon or a las canon, save points on the champ by keeping him stock. If your taking out screens and pressing the midfield objectives, take the reaper chain canon. Plenty of opportunity for both. Not taking the chain canons at all is a huge missed opportunity though.

Btw as a long time DE player myself I can tell you I could care less about the chain canon or autocanons vs my vehicles. Both are terribly inefficient for that job. One is easily outranged and the other is way to low volume and low damage to matter. You want to down DE vehicles quickly you assault them. They have no hit mods (barring an expensive strat) or invulns in assault. Or you can also use mortal wounds from things like smite.

Great reply techsoldaten, and interesting feedback.

You're spot on with a lot of what you say about MSU play style. We don't have access to many auras, and the new detachment ones are all locked to havocs, obits and daemonforged, so that's a problem. This play style also points to multiple cheap chaos lords, to provide auras and counter assault, so blade of the hydra and black mace spring to mind, as do a few of the new relics.

I was thinking of going double battalion too, but 4 lascannon, 2x2 plasma. Keep las in the backfield, one or two maybe deployed with the AL Strat in cover, and 2 plasma moving up with a lord. That or all auto cannon, depending on the rest of my list...

I tihnk MSU units of CSM are good. But I would like to say that even a reduced cap of strength of cap, a blob of 30 cultists can really spread out over a large area. If you are running Abby, they are really good because Abby makes them fearless plus gives them a very big operating range. The key thing is to cast delightful agonies on them to give them 5+ FNP. I did that to my 30 cultists, they weathered the combined firepower of 3 custodes bike lords with hurricane bolters. Later when I brought them back with tide of traitors, my opponent charged all 3 custodes into the blob. In a previous game where he did this to my blob of 20 corsairs, I didn't cast delightful agonies and he killed the whole blob. This time, with delightful agonies on, he failed to kill the whole blob despite all the hurricane bolter shots, plus all the awesome close combat attacks that 3 custodes bike lords can bring upon a unit. And to add insult to injury, the blob didn't run away because one model was within 12 inches of Abby.

Actually, the problem I now have is a slightly different one. My gaming group plays that the first floor of terrain like ruins cannot be seen through at all. This means that any unit can easily hide out of line of sight amongst the various terrain (doesn't matter if you are on second floor or an elavated view, if they are within the first floor of a ruin or building, you can't see them. This causes serious problems to CSM shooting as all of our ranged need line of sight. And this means that things like scouts can deploy into midfield easily without fear of being shot off the board by my shooting as long as they hide out of line of sight. And they protect an exposed custodes bike lord too because as long as the scouts are nearer to me, I can't target the custodes, nevermind I can't even see the scouts.

Chain cannon is really the way to go for MSU CSM squads. The autocannon is nice and cheap and points efficient for what it does, but it doesn't actually do that much. Autocannons make sense on Havocs due to the range. But the CSM need to get closer anyway. The Chaincannon is one of the most efficient weapons in the game for its cost, and in many ways is better in a CSM squad than on havocs due to the ablative wounds.

If you go back a few pages you can find my spreadsheets on the mathematical comparisons of all the heavy weapons. But to summarize:

- Chain Cannon is incredible and one of the best weapons in the game
- Chain cannon outperforms every other heavy weapon by a considerable amount, except for lascannons vs heavy tanks.
- Lascannon havocs are worthwhile if you're fighting heavy tanks despite their price.
- Autocannons are really efficient due to the cost and range. They are decent vs any target except landraiders.
- Missile launchers are terrible because frag missiles are really weak. Autocannons are a better all-around weapon. Could be worth taking 1 over an autocannon for flakkk missile strat. Not worth dropping a lascannon for.
- Heavy bolters are not very good. Their firepower is poor compared to the Chain cannon, even when you account for their points cost. And their range isn't enough. If you need serious anti-infantry, stick to chain cannons. If you need a general allrounder, go with autocannons instead. AC doesn't come in that far behind heavy bolter against hordes due to str7.

So MSU csm should be Chain Cannon, and then a combi-bolter on the champ. Maybe a combi-plasma if you are going to have a re-roll 1's aura nearby. Any other heavy weapon is a poor return on points. The one exception being The Scourged trait might go well for Las+plas.

Great summary, @Drudge Dreadnought. Let’s also not forget that Havocs give Chaincannons access to Punishing Volley (perhaps going to become a gatekeeper for rushdown loists), and highly efficient Prescience, VOTLW, & EC.

Both chaincannon havocs as well as chaincannon MSU units will also benefit massively from The Purge's legion trait. Scratch some paint off an enemy unit and suddenly even the regular CSMs' chaincannons are getting a decent hit rate on the move. You lose out on VotLW, but the trait will apply when firing at any unit you manage to dent first. And re-rolling -all- hit rolls means moving and firing isn't so much of an issue anymore for the troops.

I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.

Omg they’re like Tau

Some great feedback on csms thanks guys.

So I guess bury the chaincannons in the csm units you want to move forward, use auto cannons on the back field camping msus.

Then use the las cannons for havoks?

I mean to buy 2 chaincannons I'm going to have 10 havok models to play with...

Soulforged pack of Blood Slaughterers, strikes me as a fun variation of that detachment. I really want to pair that with Termites of Berzerkers. Good, bad, or ugly?

Slaughterers dont need much help from Lord Discordants, but the advance/charge strat helps a tonne for their auto 6" advance. Berserkers in a termite has been a staple of my lsits for a while, and it always performs awesomely. Just start it on the table, otherwise deepstriking+charging can leave them out of the fight for way too long.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.

Omg they’re like Tau

Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait

Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.

gruyere wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.

Omg they’re like Tau

Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait

Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.

Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

gruyere wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
I’ve been musing about adding a Purge detachment, and the more I think about it the more it sprawls. It’s such a marvellously scaling trait, especially if you have a LEGION detachment that can light up target.

Omg they’re like Tau

Happy to see someone else considering the purge. I really do like the idea of a spearhead or devastation battery of purge havocs/oblits near a chaos lord. They have a huge volume of shots and if you have to use the strat to shoot into cc, you can reroll your 1s so you don’t hit your boys. Plus unless it gets FAQ’d, you have have mark of slaanesh on these guys to EC and double up. Losing VOTLW hurts, but this trait could be better with good target priority. Just deciding the rest of what I’d want to do is difficult. Rly like the idea of a tarpit unit locking my opp in CC and then shooting the hell out of them, what a super cool strat and a great trait

Having a good amount of psychic in the rest of the list is a consideration too. Getting off smites to light up a target seems great, though due to smite’s targetting restrictions probably just shooting your purge units last would be better.

Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?

Yeah Warp Bolters seem like they could be a good buy since Daemon Princes nearly never miss. Flamers were the first thing that came to mind for me due to being able to auto hit. Gonna have a read through the codex tomorrow see what I can come up with.

Would like to seek more views on how best to use Abby.

Let's get this out of the way first. Abby is a monster in melee. If you aren't looking to get him into combat. You are wasting 240 points of awesomeness. You might as well use the Purge renegade chapter in that case as a good substitute for Abby. And even within black legion, there are ways to get full rerolls. And going MSU generally means morale isn't an issue.

So, the issue with getting Abby into combat is that a LR is hideously expensive. Also, Abby in a LR wastes his buff aura until he can get out of the LR (at best turn 2 onwards).

Deep striking him in is another valid option. But! He is already 240 points, and to make it worthwhile, you need to deep strike him in with at least another 300 points or more worth of units so that his aura can buff those. And ultimately, he needs people deep striking in with him. No matter how good in cc he is, there is no way to gaurantee he will get the charge in after deepstrike. So, now the issue is that are you comfortable playing turn 1 with at least 500 or more points in deep strike reserve. Not to mention you need to be able to clear enough space so that Abby can deep strike in properly and him and his company can have good targets (whether for shooting or to charge). I think certain lists might work, but personally, I think against good lists or experienced opponents, this will be a problem. There is just too much risk of being shot off the board or counter charged after deep strike.

Abby marching up the board so far has been the best option. He gets to use all his auras. He makes all units near him better, and all units within 12 inches fearless is awesome, so you can run big blobs. But! The issue here is, his movement is 6, and short of warptiming him, you can't make it better. He works best in concert with a whole host of other units around him, that can all keep up.

I am coming to the conclusion that Abby works best when we move advance him and all of his units around him. That way, the entire sheebang can keep up, and he will get into combat that much faster. At the most, within 2 turns of move advance, Abby should be well into the midboard and in range to really threaten a great deal.

Here's the thing. Black legion trait is actually good for this. But only for rapid fire weapons. So, chain cannons are not so hot, and all heavy weapons aren't that great either. We could just risk it, but if Abby rolls well on advance, by turn 2, he will be leaving other units that only move 6 (like havocs) in the dust. This means, bolters, plasma guns. combi bolters. Or unless we are running some short of shooty daemon engine list. (Most daemon engines can move at least 8 inches or even more).

Anyway, more ideas would be great. Thats why I am asking how you guys are trying to make use of his awesome melee abilities. And lets face it, he is such a beautiful awesome model. I just can't bear to not use him.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?

Baleflamer heldrakes could really help get the trait to kick in on your first turn. Also, Slaaneshi Havocs (perhaps with Prescience?) can light up their own target for a second volley using EC.
It should be noted, too, that the trait also applies in close combat. Couple that with the strat to fire into CC and you're giving your units that are already locked a leg up. Or light up a target and ignore it for the rest of the shooting phase if you're in decent charge range with a strong melee unit like a daemon engine. Or that warp bolter daemon prince. Hell, the more I think about it the stronger the trait seems to be!
How about Bikers with meltas and a power fist champ? A Rhino full of Zerkers with a sorcerer to throw a smite at the charge target? Zerkers with full re-rolls? Yes, please!

Edit: mucked up my quote tags.

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Would be worth us all doing some brainstorming on the best complements to the Purge. What units are best for marking targets? Psykers as you have mentioned. But other units that are good are ones with decent firepower that can reliably cause a wound, but have their own source of re-rolls or don't need them. Perhaps worth considering adding bolters to Daemon princes or other units that will be up close anyway?

Baleflamer heldrakes could really help get the trait to kick in on your first turn. Also, Slaaneshi Havocs (perhaps with Prescience?) can light up their own target for a second volley using EC.
It should be noted, too, that the trait also applies in close combat. Couple that with the strat to fire into CC and you're giving your units that are already locked a leg up. Or light up a target and ignore it for the rest of the shooting phase if you're in decent charge range with a strong melee unit like a daemon engine. Or that warp bolter daemon prince. Hell, the more I think about it the stronger the trait seems to be!
How about Bikers with meltas and a power fist champ? A Rhino full of Zerkers with a sorcerer to throw a smite at the charge target? Zerkers with full re-rolls? Yes, please!

Edit: mucked up my quote tags.

Alternativly, allied IW would perfectly synergize.
IW warlord and fearless cultists infront.
Not to mention the purge stratagem.

Purge Oblits or hellbrutes, IW havocs with high firerate or strength weaponry.

making someone other then Abaddon your warlord though DOOOES loose you those free yummy extra CPs, but might be worth it if you don't NEED CPs. IMHO Abaddon would be AMAZING if CSMs could take a chainsword AND bolt gun. charge up firing and then move into close combat fast. I'm actually wondering if even without the extra attacks from chainswords, it might be worth just rushing Black Legion CSMs into CC with Abaddon or even running a mix of boltguns and chainswords. use the bolt gun guys as meat sheilds for the CCW delivery..

BrianDavion wrote:
making someone other then Abaddon your warlord though DOOOES loose you those free yummy extra CPs, but might be worth it if you don't NEED CPs. IMHO Abaddon would be AMAZING if CSMs could take a chainsword AND bolt gun. charge up firing and then move into close combat fast. I'm actually wondering if even without the extra attacks from chainswords, it might be worth just rushing Black Legion CSMs into CC with Abaddon or even running a mix of boltguns and chainswords. use the bolt gun guys as meat sheilds for the CCW delivery..

You could run BL Chosen. They get the chainsword AND boltgun and have +1A (and +1Ld but who cares because Abby) to boot. For only +1pt/model, too. No obsec, of course, and they'll take up elite slots. But if you're not going to worry about CPs anyway, the whole lot could be a vanguard detachment. Abby plus 15 ablative wounds, with every survivor adding +3 S4 attacks in CC for under 500 points. Issue is, can you get the whole lot to where you want it? 15 Chosen will die to a man if your opponent asks them politely. 10-man squads perhaps?

I haven't tried it yet because I'm still building them but I've also been thinking about how to get better use of Abaddon and get him into combat. The idea I've come up with troubles me aesthetically but I think it can work.

I plan to advance him in a huddle of bikers. I know the idea of him running alongside a bunch of motorbikes seems silly but it means no matter what his advance roll is, you will be able to keep up with him and keep him covered. The bikes don't have to advance so they will be shooting at full BS. And Ab can shoot his talon after advancing on 3+ too. Am I right in presuming he only gets 2 shots if he advances?

I decided to compare chosen to bikes:
A squad of 5 bikes, two with plasma, and a champ with combi plasma is 148pts
For 151pts you get 8 chosen, 3 with plasma 2 with combi bolters 3 with bolters
The bikes are putting out 20 bolter shots compared to 7 from the chosen. Both have 3 plasma shots but because the bikes aren't advancing you can double tap the plasma if a target presents itself and you can even risk overcharging because there's no -1.
The bikes have 10 T5 wounds, the chosen have only 8 T4 wounds.

Footslogging Abaddon up with this you're getting full rerolls on a lot of shots, you could go bigger with the bike unit or go for two units if you want more plasma.

And while the bikes aren't much of a melee threat you can have a rhino full of berserkers or something to rendezvous with Abaddon once he arrives in your opponents lines and peel the bikes off to go catch objectives or cause a nuisance.

I'm looking forward to trying it out. I think with the beta bolter rules bikes are really great now. 23pts for 2 T5 wounds and 4 bolter shots is really a bargain that I don't think terminators or chosen can compete with and the crazy move distance is just icing on the cake

I did a stupid and I now have a squad of Ghal Vorbak and the dude with blade-slaves coming my way for "Word Bearers" (rules-wise their keyword is yet to be decided).

What do I do with those guys?! It's not just about effectiveness of different choices - I'm already taking sub-optimal loadouts on other squads because they're bigger, badder remakes of models I did in my early teens - but even what to run them as is stumping me a bit. If I run them as 5/7 possessed the Shadowspear GP won't actually deserve that name anymore. 9 GP seem a tad too much, though I could build even bigger Greater Possessed and use all the others as a 9 man squad of Possessed, but then *those* GP would start to be Mutilator-sized or be confused with small Demon Princes. I could run the blade-slaves and Ghal Vorbak as a load of spawns, but they're still a bit on the tame side for spawns. Giant Chosen could be an option that works, but why some big guys in mutated armour give buffs to demons and others stand back and shoot combi-bolters would still be a head-scratcher, even with the right guns on the resin dudes.