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I think people have possibly been a bit spoilt/brainwashed by "Drop pod assault" & "Deamon drop" rules (No offence, People).. with the whole :- Stuff coming in first turn for massive Alpha strike Pew.

But Using the idea of; full amount of spods coming in from reserves, along with a core of outflanking units.. along with anything that either 1) allows non-outflanking units to outflank and 2) Improves reserve rolls or outflanks to some degree 3) Really Big and MC nasty.. that actually gets fielded on the table. Putting up a target selection of MC's only (Tervigons, T-fexes, Tyrants and Fexes) for the first few turns would be benificial (Similiar to the concept of mech) as weaker fired weapons would result in really minimal wounds and template/blast weapons having next to zero effect..

So my point is; Sole MC's fielded first turn, Tervigons because they seem to be made of chitinous win, T-fex's to allow for some realistic ranged engagement of armour (its more about the actual range compared to the str10 or mediocre BS3, It seems to me!) with a 2-3 Spod selection of ranged pew (Perhaps one tough/numerous CC squad) along with the bulk (or entirety) of your non-MC fodder. All depends on how much can effectively outflank.

I'd also like to see how nids want to get around cover & assaults.. I mean the lack of assault grenades for NIDS seems just crazy. Its what they do best, I thought it's what they were designed to do! Maybe lashwhips, unsure how they work now. Hopefully there will be a hidden gem to deny this apparent weakness.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Conscripts also have lower stats and an inferior weapon compared to termingaunts. Orders are a nice bonus, but not uber either...and who said IG in chimeras are immune to tyranids? My chimmys died just fine to the bugs.

And is pointless. They should be free since even with them...they are most likely striking last since most units have a higher initiative than they do...but nice try though.

A weapon with twice the range and the ability to tack on more shots at will is worse than a bolt pistol? Color me shocked. And Orders only make your dudes better, whereas our units have to be babysat by Synapse creatures or they go haywire.

The only way your chimeras could have been wiped out by Tyranids would have been if you left them standing still and fielded only 1 or 2 and no other vehicles. Even with our new anti-tank units, they still have relatively short-to-average range and are restricted to a few specialist Elites choices as opposed to "1 or more in every squad" that every single other codex in the game except Daemons and Necrons gets. A chimera is, at its worst, an extra life for your guardsmen. At its best, an impenetrable fortress that makes them entirely invincible. Mounted units provided no end of trouble to Tyranid troops before, and they will continue to do so under the new codex.

Next, your conscripts get higher Ld, better armor, OUR rule which was taken away and handed to you by RC (Without Number), the ability to function outside of specific leadership auras, the ability to Run faster (a real slap in the face considering we lost Fleet and got nothing in return), and a plethora of other amazing options that you're conveniently ignoring. Termagants are bad. We take them to enable Troops tervigons, fill out the required slots, or as a very much last-ditch objective option.

Finally, the +1 to Initiative that termagants have means quite literally nothing if you can stay in cover and ignore it. You're pretty much having your cake and eating it. As long as you have Initiative 2 or higher, you can make use of grenades, and if you claim otherwise you're full of it.

All of this, for fewer points. I sincerely hope you're just trolling.

I2 with grenades assaults I3 in cover:

I3 goes first, because the grenades simply ensure that the I2 model does not drop to I1.

Same for I3 with grenades vs. I4 in cover.

Frags still allow you to glance rear armor though.

Lictors also suffer from instinctive behavior LURK sure they have leader ship ten but that doesnt mean you cannot fail it.

Thanks for sharing your thought, Pryokon. One major thing I don't agree with:

Pryokon wrote:Ymgarl Genestealers (Speculation): Use the regular ones. Seriously. They have to deploy in cover, but suffer the same cover-init weakness as their regular, cheaper, more efficient counterparts? Pass.

Setting aside for the moment that we're talking about using Elite slots for something other than Zoanthropes or Hive Guard, I'm not sure you've given these guys a fair shake. Yes, they have to deploy in cover. But they still get to move/fleet/assault afterwards, making it very dangerous to hang out too close to terrain, and you get the benefits of secret deployment. Coupled with outflanking stealers (to discourage your opponent from hugging the table edges), and maybe a Trygon/mawloc (to discourage too much clumping), it seems like Ymgarl 'stealers offer some decent utility for turn-of-arrival striking. (Plus, they still get saves against bolters.) Even for assaulting models in terrain, +1 T for that assault phase and 4+ armor will minimize the damage that Long Fangs/Devestators will manage.

Janthkin wrote:Yes, they have to deploy in cover.

Do they? I'm pretty sure it said they MAY use the Hidden Deployment.

A weapon with twice the range and the ability to tack on more shots at will is worse than a bolt pistol?

LOL. Obviously someone doesn't use conscripts regularly...LOL. Twice the range means squat when the BS of the shooter is a measely 2. I'll take the better strength, assault based gun any day.

Color me shocked. And Orders only make your dudes better, whereas our units have to be babysat by Synapse creatures or they go haywire.

Orders may make a unit do something cool. However, last time I checked conscripts are Ld5. Unless you are taking specific characters (Kell, Commissar lords), etc. I don't see them passing that test very often. With warriors being troops, etc. getting good synapse coverage isn't that difficult....or let me put it this way...no more difficult than IG players needing to babysit units within their respective command radius.

The only way your chimeras could have been wiped out by Tyranids would have been if you left them standing still and fielded only 1 or 2 and no other vehicles.

I love the assumptions you are making. I have 5 chimmies in my list and 3 out of 5 died...and one became immobile. Why? Because with all the pod dropping, outflanking, shooting, etc. It's pretty difficult to protect your side and rear armor all the time.

Even with our new anti-tank units, they still have relatively short-to-average range and are restricted to a few specialist Elites choices as opposed to "1 or more in every squad" that every single other codex in the game except Daemons and Necrons gets.

These units also can hit from various attack angles, getting side shots quite easily. AV10 is extremely easy to pen if you have the shot. Getting there is made easier with podding units.

A chimera is, at its worst, an extra life for your guardsmen.

To some degree. But when it blows up it will take half of them in the blast. A fair trade.

At its best, an impenetrable fortress that makes them entirely invincible.

LOL. Invincible...right.

Mounted units provided no end of trouble to Tyranid troops before, and they will continue to do so under the new codex.

Duh. Which is why I said the power level in the new codex is a lateral shift. The biggest thing the bugs got were cheaper troops, and methods to attack an opponent from all sides of the board. Castling will not work vs. tyranids anymore.

Next, your conscripts get higher Ld, better armor, OUR rule which was taken away and handed to you by RC (Without Number)

Conscripts are Ld5. What is the Ld of a termagaunt again? If you think a 5+ is better than a 6+...well you are barking up the wrong tree. Most weapons blow through it. Taking send in the next wave means adding more points cost to an already small unit...and driving up the points cost of the conscript unit. Is it worth it? Sure, but it isn't gamebreaking either. FYI they don't get frag grenades either.

the ability to function outside of specific leadership auras, the ability to Run faster (a real slap in the face considering we lost Fleet and got nothing in return), and a plethora of other amazing options that you're conveniently ignoring.

Uh, who ho cares? They are two different armies. Sounds like IG envy to me...LOL. What other amazing options am I conveniently ignoring? The awesome Ogryn?The uber stormtroopers? The kicka$$ ratlings? Or how awesome punishers are? Meanwhile, last I checked I don't get pods that can drop without risk, pods that shoot a ridiculous amount of shots, crap that can just deepstrike where ever, guns that need no LOS to shoot, the list goes on. Do you see me complaining about it? No. It is what it is. Not all units in a codex can be OMG friggin awesome. Accept it.

Termagants are bad. We take them to enable Troops tervigons, fill out the required slots, or as a very much last-ditch objective option.

I'm sure the other Tyranid players that have been testing their lists would disagree with you, but by that rationale, conscripts are bad as well. All mine do is get in the opponents way, while my other stuff does the work...then maybe take an objective. Sounds like they pretty much do the same thing, eh?

Finally, the +1 to Initiative that termagants have means quite literally nothing if you can stay in cover and ignore it.

Um...yeah, and how long can I go ignoring them..or better yet the other stuff that's appearing right in my lines. Everything in the Nid codex trashes any guard unit as soon as it hits CC.

You're pretty much having your cake and eating it. As long as you have Initiative 2 or higher, you can make use of grenades, and if you claim otherwise you're full of it.

I am claiming otherwise. What benefit do grenades give me by charging Init 4 units (or higher) in cover? They still go first. Where as before I'd strike simo with them. If I charge orks in cover, I may go first, but I still lose because I don't generate enough attacks to win. Either way is a losing prospect.

All of this, for fewer points. I sincerely hope you're just trolling.

Fewer points? Seriously? LOL. Conscripts are 80pts of "I don't care." It's more of a wash if you ask me...and for what it's worth I wasn't the one who responded to my post. You were. Trolling I am not. I'm just making a general observation that Nid players are getting a pretty decent codex with lots of combos and options..so they should work with what they have. A lateral shift in power, but some cool new tech to work into their lists. Lastly, when has a Termagaunt ever been good? If they were we'd have seen them all over the place in past games, etc. right?


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Yup and in all cases, it's a losing prospect with IG.

willydstyle wrote:I2 with grenades assaults I3 in cover:

I3 goes first, because the grenades simply ensure that the I2 model does not drop to I1.

Same for I3 with grenades vs. I4 in cover.

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So what? Stealers are Strength 4 and can do the same thing...oh, but they also have rending don't they? LOL.

Gornall wrote:Frags still allow you to glance rear armor though.

The hive guard are kinda-sorta nasty, but 3 str8 shots at BS 4 really arent great for a whole lot. I'm far more terrified of things popping out of the ground near my army and rending their way through my armor, both vehicle and 3+ Power Armor. Zoanthropes are an absolute must now that they have a str10 weapon that can pen all that armor 13/14 running around. Plus with a 3+ invulnerable, why the heck not!

Rest assured I'm fairly certain I'll be getting some more test games vs. Mahu's lists. I look forward to the challenge and any further findings I'm sure he'll continue to post here.

CaptKaruthors wrote:So what? Stealers are Strength 4 and can do the same thing...oh, but they also have rending don't they? LOL.

If you're going to mention that 14 point genestealers can hit armor 10 when somebody brings up the fact that 5 point guardsmen can, well, there's pretty much no point to even talking to you. Unless somebody wants to compare the vehicle-wrecking capabilities of meltaguns and hormagaunts in assault? I'm certain that's just as fair of a comparison.

Ok, somebody who doesn't live in the boonies (like Alaska) can answer this:

What weapons does a Alpha warrior have access to? I have a 3rd edition hive tyrant that I'm going to make into a alpha, and he will be joining a unit of warriors from the last edition that have scytals and deathspitters. What should I outfit him with to maximize output from this unit? Preferrably, I'd like this unit to be a stop-gap transport killer until I can afford some of the new models, and one that doesn't use up an elite slot.

He starts with Scything Talons and Devourer. He can replace the Talons with Rending Claws, Boneswords, or Lashwhip and Boneswords. He can replace the Devourer with Claws, Spinfists, Deathspitter or Talons. Personal opinion, I'd say Boneswords and Deathspitter. With Str 5 guns, they're not going to do too much to transports though.

There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

A fair comparison would be Str 4 boosted gaunts vs. guardsmen which the gaunts still have the advantage because there will be more of them and put up more attacks. Regardless of the 2pt difference. However, you were complaining about free frags on unit which doesn't get them (conscripts) which puts them on par with non boosted termagaunts...i.e. they both do nothing to vehicles...yet you claim they are somehow better.


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Aduro wrote:He starts with Scything Talons and Devourer. He can replace the Talons with Rending Claws, Boneswords, or Lashwhip and Boneswords. He can replace the Devourer with Claws, Spinfists, Deathspitter or Talons. Personal opinion, I'd say Boneswords and Deathspitter. With Str 5 guns, they're not going to do too much to transports though.

Str 5 guns on side armor can and will have adverse effects on your transports.

But they're only 18" range, and you can't pod the Alpha.

Oh you can't? I wasn't aware of that. That definitely changes my opinion on the alpha.

I would not be surprised if they change it in an FAQ, but normal Drop Pods and Transports have rules that allow you to attach an IC to the unit inside. The Spores are not actual Transports and simply have their own, similar rules, but do not include the provision that IC can join up.

They are not actual transports? That sounds strange. It probably is because they are not vehicles, and thus cannot technically be transports. What are they then, MCs? Infantry?

CaptKaruthors wrote:There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

Oh, so Warlord Titans are better choices than Genestealers at killing vehicles? SD vs S4 w/ rending! No contest! Time to take Warlord Titans!!1! Next!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:They are not actual transports? That sounds strange. It probably is because they are not vehicles, and thus cannot technically be transports. What are they then, MCs? Infantry?

They are MCs.

Let's talk about spore pods and how great they are.

Cheap T4 w/ multiple wounds makes it so ST8 or higher needed to insta kill them.

The best part about the spore pods is that they're not a vehicle and are actually a monstrous creature. What does this mean??

Well:

Monstrous Creatures get 2d6 penetration so its unlikely your opponent will tank shock to kill them since they are completely immobile. It also means you damn well don't want to charge them as they have power weapons. Sure they may have weapon skill 2 but they also have Lashwhips so they are going to get to go at the same time with INI1

They have BS 2 so even though they get a 6 inch ST6 assault 6 it is not that great but here is the kicker.

They're monstrous Creatures meaning they can fire 2 weapons on landing. They have access to Thorn Blast which is a ST5 large blast. They always have to shoot the closest model but who cares.



Thats really cool for 50 points.


Also, it specifically lists them as Transports under all of the headings of Transport Options for units. IE = its a transport. Its just not a vehicle.

Following that it would be a dedicated transport for that unit otherwise you could purchase a landing spore for termagants and put a Hive Tyrant in it.

If it is a Dedicated Transport which I feel it is then you most certainly can attach IC to the unit per the BRB. So, an Alpha warrior most certainly can join a squad with a Landing SPore in reserve.



That said

2 VenomThropes w/ Alpha Warrior w Boneswords and Scything talons w/ Regenerate and a Spore Pod w/ Thorn Blast is 260 points.

That's a pretty kick ass unit.

Throw in some Trigons deepstriking by it and Genestealers etc.. and you have a really nasty deepstriking assault force.


Venom + Alpha pod
Trigon Alpha
Trigon Alpha

Good Luck...

I see a debate looming over this... I could see where that would be RAI but not RAW that they act as transports for all intents and purposes. I guess I'll have to wait and see the codex when mine comes in the mail before I can figure it one way or the other. I would think it would have to specifically say in their unit entry that they act like transports, otherwise they are just an immobile MC that can carry troops in it, and not really a transport (and thus guided by the same rules).

Edit: because I hit 'enter' too quick.

Nice lame remark, but thanks for playing.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

Oh, so Warlord Titans are better choices than Genestealers at killing vehicles? SD vs S4 w/ rending! No contest! Time to take Warlord Titans!!1! Next!

I think the Pods have significant weaknesses some people are refusing to see. The fact that it will die on the rolls of 3+ and then 2+ from a single SM lascannon/missile launcher/meltagun/multi-melta means that it can never be counted on to provide line of sight blockage or cover saves. You can't even argue that the SM player is 'wasting' firepower when he directs one of his S8 weapons at the 50 point/1 kill point model that the nearby Tyranids greatly benefit from unless its killed.

We haven't see a lot of army lists yet either, but I suspect that when combining points spent on Spore Pods with the somewhat inflated costs of the monstrous creatures the Tyranid armies will seem awfully small. My 1750p SM/SW lists have 15 vehicles and 30+ men. If I'm only against four monsters and a less than ten T4 W2 models I can't really say I'm impressed. Of course I might be wrong too.

I'd also like someone to propose Tyranid units and strategies that will destroy the Nobs or Seers on Bikes or Wolf cav. A lot of Tyranid lists look like they have absolutely no answers to them. Is it even possible to build a Tyranid army that has a 50/50 chance or better against all types of opponents?

What I do like about the Tyranid codex is that it seems like it's absolutely filled to the brim with units most people will never even have time to try out. I believe we'll see a lot of downright awfully ineffective Tyranid armies in play before someone figures out something.

Boneswords; there is the answer right there to the question of what to do about TW calvary and Nobs.

Especially if they have Adrenal Glands and Toxic Glands.

A 5 Man winged Tyranid Warrior Squad w/ Boneswords adrenal glands and toxic sacs is like 275. It rerolls ones ; rerolls wounds w/ poison on a 4+ and has ST5 so it rerolls wounds vs. Nobs , Nurgle, TW Calvary.

WS 5 means is will hit the Thunderwolves on a 3+ and reroll 1s which means they only miss on a 2. That's pretty awesome.

Then with a Pair of Boneswords each wound dealt out has to take a LD test or it causes instant death.

20 Attacks though so that is a low number but they'll slaughter a Thunderwolf unit. Especially if they are armed individually which actually makes doing that a bad thing.

Against Nobs the same thing.

edit:

Winged Tyranid Warriors are awesome that is pretty much what I think for their point cost ; 5 points for wings. Yes, please.

Can you put wings on an Alpha? That may be an alternative to podding them together.

20 Attacks though so that is a low number but they'll slaughter a Thunderwolf unit

The first thing comes to mind is that you have 275 points spent in a unit that has 5+ armour saves and is extremely vulnerable to instant death on top of that.

Against TWC you'll hit 15 times, it's an impressive number. You'll get 11 wounds. It's a lot of damage, even assuming two-three storm shields, wounds spread on all five models and LD10. However, how many of the Nids will be whacked in return by surviving Power Klaws or Thunder Hammers? All of them. What happens when the Shrikes either lost some models to shooting or have to assault into cover or get assaulted themselves? There's no reason to assume a very fragile unit would get the jump on faster and more resilient units.

Boneswords aren't especially awesome against W1 Assault Terminators either, but mostly I'd be worried about the platform they are mounted on. While the super bikers and cavalry units of other armies can wade through a lot of ranged firepower, winged Warriors die when someone even looks at them. Lastly, how would you get your points worth out of the unit against armies like IG? Your force weapons are absolutely useless and the whole squad is one ordnance template or melta volley away from nid heaven.

Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.


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They are not a incredible end all be all unit for the tyranids but they are a excellent CC unit. Also, you can readily get cover saves from gargoyles in front.

Its a very good unit.

Hollismason wrote:WS 5 means is will hit the Thunderwolves on a 3+ and reroll 1s which means they only miss on a 2. That's pretty awesome.

Technically, I think the general rule of "you can never reroll a reroll" would break in on that action. If they are combining high WS with the scything talon reroll of 1, that's one reroll. They may only miss on a 2 in the first roll, but they would miss on a reroll of a 1 or 2. So they hit on 4.666 out of 6 of their attacks, or roughly 10% less than what you present in this statement. Not a lot less, but significant when you are trying to justify those 275 points for 5 models.

Hollismason wrote:Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.

Is that your reply? You ignored everything else in my post about Shrikes and their weaknesses? Love the discussion at Dakka these days.

I very much know they are power weapons, hence what I said about two-three guys with storm shields and two guys without. I also took into account the re-roll to wound in my calculation. So, a highly expensive glass cannon unit running around unwounded can cause damage when it charges an enemy unit on open terrain. How surprising. So, what conclusion did you come to in your argument? Shrikes are the solution against Seer Councils, Nobs and TWC, and belong into against all comers tournament armies, because they have necessary strengths and no weaknessess that opponents will easily exploit? For your convenience my argument is that they are utter points sinks against many armies while suffering from weaknesses that even their main target opponents can use to their advantage.