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Fetterkey wrote:Mech is not disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies aren't even all that great-- in my opinion, semi-mech armies are actually stronger.

semi mech is way better but full mech is way easier. The average player wants the EZ button.

G

Therion wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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edit:

Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.

Is that your reply? You ignored everything else in my post about Shrikes and their weaknesses? Love the discussion at Dakka these days.

I very much know they are power weapons, hence what I said about two-three guys with storm shields and two guys without. I also took into account the re-roll to wound in my calculation. So, a highly expensive glass cannon unit running around unwounded can cause damage when it charges an enemy unit on open terrain. How surprising. So, what conclusion did you come to in your argument? Shrikes are the solution against Seer Councils, Nobs and TWC, and belong into against all comers tournament armies, because they have necessary strengths and no weaknessess that opponents will easily exploit? For your convenience my argument is that they are utter points sinks against many armies while suffering from weaknesses that even their main target opponents can use to their advantage.

There was a huge post earlier about the weakness of tyranid warriors; the same can be applied to winged warriors the advantage winged warriors have is mobility over warriors for 5 points more.

Who said anything about them not having weaknesses i was pointing out that your calculation for what they would do to a ThunderWolf squad was off with your assumption that they were LD10 which they are not meaning they suffer one wound from a bonesword and have to take a LD8 on 3d6 or suffer instant death.

Well what if? What if space aliens kidnapped you while you were playing 40k impregnated you with a child and then returned you a split second later and during the game you gave birth to a alien baby?

There are a lot of what ifs. Just because something has a weakness doesnt mean much. So don't get your panties in a wad.

Well what if? What if space aliens kidnapped you while you were playing 40k impregnated you with a child and then returned you a split second later and during the game you gave birth to a alien baby?

There are a lot of what ifs. Just because something has a weakness doesnt mean much. So don't get your panties in a wad.

Entertaining. You do realise people here are discussing Tyranid strategies, army lists, and the strengths and weaknesses of units, don't you? Your contribution was that 275 points worth of flying glass aliens will kill a few of the toughest assault models in this game in an optimal scenario. We knew that, and I personally was expecting you to have a point in all this sooner or later. I was incorrect and for that I apologize.

Therion wrote:I think the Pods have significant weaknesses some people are refusing to see. The fact that it will die on the rolls of 3+ and then 2+ from a single SM lascannon/missile launcher/meltagun/multi-melta means that it can never be counted on to provide line of sight blockage or cover saves. You can't even argue that the SM player is 'wasting' firepower when he directs one of his S8 weapons at the 50 point/1 kill point model that the nearby Tyranids greatly benefit from unless its killed.

We haven't see a lot of army lists yet either, but I suspect that when combining points spent on Spore Pods with the somewhat inflated costs of the monstrous creatures the Tyranid armies will seem awfully small. My 1750p SM/SW lists have 15 vehicles and 30+ men. If I'm only against four monsters and a less than ten T4 W2 models I can't really say I'm impressed. Of course I might be wrong too.

I'd also like someone to propose Tyranid units and strategies that will destroy the Nobs or Seers on Bikes or Wolf cav. A lot of Tyranid lists look like they have absolutely no answers to them. Is it even possible to build a Tyranid army that has a 50/50 chance or better against all types of opponents?

What I do like about the Tyranid codex is that it seems like it's absolutely filled to the brim with units most people will never even have time to try out. I believe we'll see a lot of downright awfully ineffective Tyranid armies in play before someone figures out something.

What I've taken away from Shep's & Mahu's testing so far is that we won't be using mixed bugs too often, unless you happen to own a ton of warriors.

My initial guess at a competitive army? 2 Tervigons, 2 giant gant/guant swarms, 2 Tyrannofexes, maybe a Venomthrope to drop cover over the Tyrannofexes, some Zoanthropes, Deathleaper, and a cheap Prime for HQ. Deathleaper messes up one pskyer; Tyrannofexes concentrate on preventing any others from getting close enough to Jaws them to death. Zoanthropes are there for Shadow in the Warp as needed, and nasty shooting otherwise. Termigants, backed by Tervigons, are a decent tarpit with a silly volume of attacks.

I think the army would be okay against biker Seer council (Fortune is going to be hard to cast, once the bikers get close enough to be useful). Nob bikers would be interesting - moderately hard for them to get at the MCs through the 4-5 units of gants, and the Prime is a pretty good Warboss assassin if armed w/dual-boneswords; much depends on how many Nobs get insta-gibbed on turns 1 & 2 from Zoanthropes and T-fexes.

I have only vague ideas how it would play out against a wolf cav list (or Bloodcrushers, for that matter). Smaller spawned gant units as out-of-synapse blockers, with as many insta-kill shots as possible on the wolf cav. Still have to watch out for Jaws, though.

Interesting as you are not advocating a spam list. I think it's quite possible we will see several strong lists from the new codex. I don't think spam is going to work that well as the new Nidz are about synergizing different units. I think swarm will be strong with the right elements and there should be a new MC hammer list. I think there is also room at the top for a hybrid list that borrows heavily from the other two.

Based upon my experience playing power armor I am thinking the Alpha Warrior will eventually become the most popular HQ choice. If genestealers can truly infiltrate, fleet and outflank they could be one of the most popular troop choices. Gaunts definitely have a lot going for them and the loss of fleet tells me that Robin Cruddace dropped it to maintain balance. I could be wrong though.

G

We can't forget about the burrow lists! I think a list with 3 trygons and various other units that would benefit from the Trygons tunnel will be very popular!

Me too! I am planning to run two Alpha Trygons. One thing I really like about the new Nidz is the ability to run an entire army that does not rely upon synapse.

G

Problem with burrow lists is if your reserves come in too early you have to bring them on normally. The English codex states units arriving via the tunnel come in during subsequent turns.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Interesting as you are not advocating a spam list. I think it's quite possible we will see several strong lists from the new codex. I don't think spam is going to work that well as the new Nidz are about synergizing different units. I think swarm will be strong with the right elements and there should be a new MC hammer list. I think there is also room at the top for a hybrid list that borrows heavily from the other two.

Based upon my experience playing power armor I am thinking the Alpha Warrior will eventually become the most popular HQ choice. If genestealers can truly infiltrate, fleet and outflank they could be one of the most popular troop choices. Gaunts definitely have a lot going for them and the loss of fleet tells me that Robin Cruddace dropped it to maintain balance. I could be wrong though.

Model count is going to be interesting. The list I proposed uses a minimum of 60 + 6d6 gaunts, and quite probably more. I think there's going to be an art in knowing when to spawn bonus gants; you don't want to run out early or expose them to unnecessary fire, but you also want to get use out of your Tervigons before they get dead.

I love my genestealers, and I'm still not certain how they'll do. I tried to run w/o extended carapace a few times in the old 'dex, and they just die in droves to bolters & flamers. Catalyst & Genestealers might be a fun combo.

The Prime is probably going to be very popular for non-nidzilla builds, because he's cheap and reasonably effective in HtH; it helps that he can hide himself in units, too.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is not disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies aren't even all that great-- in my opinion, semi-mech armies are actually stronger.

semi mech is way better but full mech is way easier. The average player wants the EZ button.

G

Could you provide examples of effective semi-mech lists and tournament winners? Fetterkey is always talking about how mech is not powerful, and that once everyone realizes that semi-mech is better people will switch to it. Do you have any good examples? I can never get any from him.

I don't think mech isn't powerful, I think it isn't disproportionately powerful. One good place to look for semi-mech stuff might be Shep's current Imperial Guard list, which uses Infantry Platoons rather than Veterans in order to field both several Chimeras and a strong foot contingent. I think that's the way that IG lists are going, though I could certainly be wrong.

I guess I've been making a strong list all along? And I just wanted a bit of diversity. Knowing this I think I'll post my list up in Army Lists to see if anyone has thoughts on it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think Zoies are a must have unit since heavy mech is the current meta then throw in the Deathleaper as added insurance versus anti psychic enemy units, so I'm planning to run two squads of two Zoies (probably in pods) plus the ubèr Lictor for the boost.

I also see Trygons as an excellent close combat monster that can add synapse plus the Alpha version can shoot well too.

As Mahu has said I am also a big fan of the Alpha Warrior with a retinue of Warriors coming in via a spore.
G

Jumping in here kinda late.

I think 2 squads of 2-3 zoans each and deathleaper would be a good solid start.

Don't know much about trygons. I think if they could let more than 1 unit come through the 'tunnel', they would be very solid.

I like the alpha warrior. Cheap hq. I also like the tervigon as an hq choice.

This would not be a bad starting point for starting your play testing.


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Green Blow Fly wrote:Landraiders aren't the end of the world. TMC can shred them like tinfoil in cc. Try to look at the big picture. Hiveguard can smoke transports which to me is more important.

G

The problem is that hive guard compete with zoans and death leaper in the same foc. I think it's mandatory for 2 zoan units. Doesn't leave much room for much else.

The nid codex army build is getting to be like the ork codex army builds.

To many good units competing to be in the list in the same few foc's.

Is it public knowledge that one (1) unit can follow through the hole of the trygon every subsequent turn after the turn the trygon emerged? These units can't assault after that either.

Just want to make sure.

On a side note, I'm a bit bummed that the lictor is pretty much useless now. It seems everyone takes the deathleaper for his -d3 Ld ability and the rest ist more of a bonus. And taking more than one lictor-type model is overkill anyway. Why has the lictor be on the table to get the reserve bonus anyway? It's not like he is not there, he's freakin hiding, pooping out pheromones while we speak!

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT for clarification.

Schepp himself wrote:Why has the lictor be on the table to get the reserve bonus anyway? It's not like he is not there, he's freakin hiding, pooping out pheromones while we speak!

QFT

Thought:

my store doesn't have the english codex yet, however could putting a tyrant, alpha warrior, ect. in with your assault broods with a lashwhip cause everyone to go at the same time when assaulting through cover, or is it only units(models?) that direct attacks against the lash whipper get the penalty?

I'm thinking that venomthropes are our walking frag grenades, giving us cover, defensive grenades, terrain tests to counter chargers, and catalyst (sort of) if they join combat.

also, I don't think enough credit is being given to "alpha strike" bugs.

2 squads of genestealers infiltrating about 20" from enemy lines in cover, deep strikers, gargoyles (maybe outflanking) trygons, ect. stand a fair chance of penning in the enemy in his deployment zone, against some players could throw them completely on the defensive.

What are peoples thoughts on the load out for the Alpha Warrior?

I like
Pair of BoneSwords
Adrenal Glands
Regenerate
Scything Talons


The Scything Talons are kind eh he does get to reroll 1s; I dunno what you could take instead of.





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Yeah the lictor has been made pretty much useless; add in that he has a AP- weapon with BS3 and 2 shots his shooting is nothing to talk about really. i mean if it had some sort of cool I can blow up armour type ability yea that would be cool.

Then add in that it does have instinctive behavior I mean sure ith as leadership 10 but still thats something that you may not want to count on.

I still think Hive Guard have their place, I just don't think they are the mandatory choice people where jumping all over. I also think the Pyovore has it's place, as you can pod them as two cheap heavy flamers (think of the cost of a Dread in a Drop Pod and compare), and you can just dare your opponent to deal with them. Orks will just love the Pyovore.

Nobody seems to mention the "one two" punch of Elite Genestealers and Spore Mines.

The more I playtest, the more I realize that Tyranids are less about crazy monsters that dominate ever assault they are in. Where their new strength lies is in the ability to just dominate unit placement and deployment. They have more tricks to be able to place things where they want them to be and be a little more surgical when they apply their forces.

Here is the list I plan to run this Saturday (point costs are off the top of my head):


-HQ-

Warrior Alpha w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Toxin = 105

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes = 180

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands, Toxic = 180

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

10 Genestealers = 140

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in a Pod = 180

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in a Pod = 220

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in a Pod = 220

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295


Total = 1998


I shifted some points around. I am going to see if Regeneration on a Tyrannofex is worth it.

Mahu wrote:I still think Hive Guard have their place, I just don't think they are the mandatory choice people where jumping all over. I also think the Pyovore has it's place, as you can pod them as two cheap heavy flamers (think of the cost of a Dread in a Drop Pod and compare), and you can just dare your opponent to deal with them. Orks will just love the Pyovore.

Nobody seems to mention the "one two" punch of Elite Genestealers and Spore Mines.

Well, I've looked at the weapon options for the spore pod and it occurred to me that some of them can be devastating to Geq or orks. The pyrovore is imo still a killpoint present to your enemy as it has to be killed with instant death weaponry to trigger its explosion. Without that restriction I would have given the pyrovore a try.

The Yrmgal Genestealers are nasty imo and I will try to use them. With their morphing they can switch on the T5 in round one to minimize the loses after assaulting out of cover and next round it's +1A or +1S time, baby! Dropping spore mines was my main hobby in 4th and 5th edition and will not stop now. They are not game breaking but still an annoyance.

Greets
Schepp himself

No Catalyst on that Tervigon, Mahu? Interesting. I look forward to your thoughts on Regenerate.

As for spore mines & the Ymgarl, I'm not 100% certain what you mean. You may be able to use spore mines to prevent your enemy from deploying inside your desired piece of terrain (depending on scatter), true, but if they go first, or if your Ymgarl don't arrive on turn 2, they can probably get in your way after that. I like the Ymgarl; I don't know that I like buying spore mines.

Well, I've looked at the weapon options for the spore pod and it occurred to me that some of them can be devastating to Geq or orks.

Enough Blast Template is devastating to any infantry unit in the open. Tyranids can do some crazy blast spamming, as long as you have things in your list to pop tanks.

The pyrovore is imo still a killpoint present to your enemy as it has to be killed with instant death weaponry to trigger its explosion. Without that restriction I would have given the pyrovore a try.

Well, think about it. 2 Pyrovores in a pod costs 140 points. A Dreadnought in a Pod costs 140 points for a similar load out. Sure the dreadnought has better armor and is slightly better in close combat, but the Pyovores have twice the Flamer templates out put on the turn it lands, and it loves to die in combat. Even just regular wounds on it can hurt the guys fighting it. Sure it's a Kill Point hit, but what isn't in the Tyranid codex. I have just resigned myself to the fact that Tyranids will probably always play down in Kill Point missions, but we have the tools to make up for it. If the Pyrovore damages a unit enough to where it can easily be picked off by other things then it has done it's job. Hell, all they need to do is survive the regular attacks from Nobz. Then die to powerclaws.

The Yrmgal Genestealers are nasty imo and I will try to use them. With their morphing they can switch on the T5 in round one to minimize the loses after assaulting out of cover and next round it's +1A or +1S time, baby! Dropping spore mines was my main hobby in 4th and 5th edition and will not stop now. They are not game breaking but still an annoyance.

The goal will be to place the mines in such a way that in order for your opponent to block the Ymgal's Genestealers arrival is to try and walk through them to get to that piece of terrain.

You can do other nasty things like in Dawn of War, pick a piece of terrain near your opponents table edge, and use infiltrating Genestealers to force your opponent to arrive on the side they are on.

There are a ton of possibilities with these guys, they are a little expensive, but you are paying the points to be the only unit in the codex that can actually assault the turn they arrive plus be able to change their stats.

No Catalyst on that Tervigon, Mahu? Interesting. I look forward to your thoughts on Regenerate.

My bad. I will check the points and I may drop Toxic on the Tervigon to get Catalyst. I believe the importance of Updgrades on a Tervigon is A. Catalyst, B. Adrenal Glands, C. Toxin, D. Scything Talons.

@Mahu -- I actually (made the mistake of?) talking up spore mines and Ymgarls on Warseer a while back, but I was "set straight" that it would simply never work. Hey, maybe it won't, but it's been on my list of things to try.


My personal observations from a game vs. mech IG last night:

- I tried that Hive Guards/Biovore combo I mentioned earlier, and it was a success. The (outstanding) results were probably skewed a bit thanks to good scatter rolls on my part, but being able to pop a Chimera out of LOS with the Hive Guards, then in the same turn drop S4 AP4 pie plates on the disembarked (and out of LOS) passengers can really be devastating. I'm not calling Biovores a must-have (not sure anything in the codex really qualifies for that anyway), but they're a very solid unit that synergizes well with HG, IMO, especially against mech IG, Tau or Eldar.

- My footslogging Tyrant with two Guards got worn down fairly quickly even with cover. They took a ton of punishment, but if your opponent really wants to remove them, they can even with Tyrant Guards. I'm not giving up on Tyrants, but I think you have to strongly consider the rest of your army and decide if one works for your build. Last night's experiment was medium and small bug-heavy, with only two MCs...a Tyrant and a Tervigon. So the Tyrant got the kitchen sink thrown at it. Conversely, in a game using a reserves-based, MC-heavy army, I dropped so many immediate threats on my opponent that I forced him to ignore my winged Tyrant DSing in a little farther back.

- The game also underlined the issues with certain powers being psychic shooting attacks. And underlined that the Tyrant powers don't amount to much if your opponent is fully mech and embarked.

- Dominion is a nice little power to head off a potential synapse emergency.

- Hormagaunts are really good at what they do. Paroxysm makes them just sick.

- In a capture & control, a single Tervigon is probably going to end up leashed to the objective in your zone, meaning you won't get many opportunities to use catalyst on your advancing units. That might make the case for two Tervigons, although Termagants simply wouldn't have had the speed to engage disembarked units like the Hormagaunts did. I think maybe I'm a little more sold on Tervigons than I was before I started playtesting, but also more sold on other Troops choices, if that makes sense.

Mahu wrote:I believe the importance of Updgrades on a Tervigon is A. Catalyst, B. Adrenal Glands, C. Toxin, D. Scything Talons.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that single scything talons on MCs are pretty lame. I swear by crushing claws on tervigons. yes they get pricier, but it helps their output quite a bit, and you aren't really gonna miss that initiative 2 on the charge.

If I don't end up loving tyrannofexes after this weekend, I am fond of your mycetic spore naked fex. Dual scytals on strength 9/10 IS a respectable way to take out tanks. Spore on a good day might take some heat off of the fex, either through a cover save or absorbing some firepower before its removed. And at 160 points, it doesn't break your back to lose the 4 wound fex.

These are my theoretical faves atm....

HQ tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

3x zoanthropes in spore

3x zoantrhopes in spore

deathleaper

troop tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

20x termagants with a spore (only if it turns out you can use the spore as empty.)

3x spore mines

3x spore mines

tyrannofex with rupture cannon

tyrannofex with rupture cannon


OR... this one which will also be very frightening for mech...

HQ tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

3x zoanthropes in spore

3x zoantrhopes in spore

deathleaper

troop tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

20x termagants with a spore (only if it turns out you can use the spore as empty.)

carnifex with a spore

carnifex with a spore

carnifex with a spore


I kinda really like the second one in theory. Six spore pods in reserve, thats 36 strength 6 shots at bs2, just waiting for vehicles. Its also just a lot of sizeable models taking up real estate. Fleet officer has been added to my IG army permanently. I know how popular nids are at the tourneys I go to, and now that they have a competitive codex, you'll see even more. Fleet officer messes with outflankers big time, and will by me plenty of time to hammer on the foot element that every nid army will almost undoubtedly have, before I have to start clearing out tons of spore pods and MCs in my own table half.

I really like your last list you posted for testing Mahu... It is obviously not focued yet, but I'm imagining that is so that you can test out a few different things at once. Please share everything you learned...

I really don't think spore pods are that threatening. Mystics will kill them essentially every time, if they don't get killed as they come in they'll just get killed next turn, they don't have reliable targeting, they're vulnerable to scattering, they essentially feed KPs, and they have only BS 2. Strength 6 might be good against Chimeras, since you can probably get side armor hits, but Rhinos are much less vulnerable. Spore pods seem generally inferior to Drop Pods in my book, especially if Tyranids do in fact have Drop Pod Assault.

Tyranids DO NOT have Drop Pod Assault.

PS. I have the codex in front of me.

Well, that's a plus. On the other hand, it means that the Nids will have to find other ways to deal with vehicles for the first few turns, especially if they aren't bringing a Hive Tyrant for reserves support. More points in favor of the Tyrannofex if you ask me...

I'm going with Boneswords and a Deathspitter on my Alpha. Probably give him Adrenal. Regenerate only when he's with other Warriors, so he can occasionally sponge an extra wound or two.

Shep, I loved your last Bat-rep. I will comment shortly I promise.

I haven't tried Zoenthropes in a Pod, and I keep having a hard time justifying them.

What I am finding is that in order for me to have guaranteed cover, I need some mid-level bugs on the table with the rest of my force. If I have just Gaunts and play on a table with limited cover, it's real easy for my opponent to say "I have a 2 Long Fang Squads on the second level of a ruin, you are not 50% obscured, you are dead". Zoenthropes, are surprisingly resilient on the ground I am finding, as they can sit in front of a Tervigon and get feel no pain.

I love the Tyrannofex because he is a big tarpit, not only to assault but in shooting. I am finding Tyranids to be about presenting enough threats to an opponent that I can distract and dissect the fire power or the dedicated assault units.

I agree concerning my list, some of it does have to do with what I have currently.

Here is another list I have been thinking about as a list I can build over time:

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Lashwhip/Bonesword, Life Leech, Paroxysm, Prefered Enemy, +1 reserves rolls, Armor upgrade = 280

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes = 180

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200

9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295



Everytime I sit down to build a list with the intention of putting multple Tervigons down, I keep dropping one in favor of Genestealers. I don't know why, I still have a genuine concern over an over reliance on the Tervigon and a lack of any real close combat besides slow MCs. That could be just me. Maybe this is the list I will test Saturday....

I have Monday off (benifit of working for public education) so maybe I can get a few more games in then.


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Well, that's a plus. On the other hand, it means that the Nids will have to find other ways to deal with vehicles for the first few turns, especially if they aren't bringing a Hive Tyrant for reserves support. More points in favor of the Tyrannofex if you ask me...

Exactly, Even though 3 Zoenthropes and a Tyrannofex will not do a lot, they do give me all the first turn shooting I need, as in the following turns I have things like Carnifexes, etc. showing up to help.

Mahu wrote:What I am finding is that in order for me to have guaranteed cover, I need some mid-level bugs on the table with the rest of my force. If I have just Gaunts and play on a table with limited cover, it's real easy for my opponent to say "I have a 2 Long Fang Squads on the second level of a ruin, you are not 50% obscured, you are dead". Zoenthropes, are surprisingly resilient on the ground I am finding, as they can sit in front of a Tervigon and get feel no pain.

Hive guard are significantly more dense than zoanthropes (model-wise), and nearly as tall. they would actually create mobile cover for an MC much better than zoans, and they can get cover in a snap from just a couple spare termagants. They benefit from catalyst much more than zoanthropes, they are cheaper, and if you are just going to be walking them across the table, 24" range gun beats 18" range psychic power.

Mahu wrote:I love the Tyrannofex because he is a big tarpit, not only to assault but in shooting. I am finding Tyranids to be about presenting enough threats to an opponent that I can distract and dissect the fire power or the dedicated assault units.

I just don't see anything that can shut down enemy long range shooting more consistently than them. They have that FNP equivalent and a great range, consistent anti-tank gun. If the stupid deathleaper +1 reserves worked when he wasn't on table, then I'd be comfortable with just 6 zoanthropes doing my long range tank kill. But with needing a 4+ on turn 2, and a potential fleet officer making that WORSE, I have to shut down vendettas like NOW, before my tervigons explode.

Lack of adrenals on raveners, lack of frags on genestealers, the +1 reserves nerf on lictors, and the mediocrity of the heavy venom cannon are the four things currently pissing me off more than anything else in the codex. They are able to be worked around, it isn't a disaster, but it really stings to have to be sitting and waiting for reserves, while your plodding impotent ground game gets shot up. Until the metagame shifts off of vendettas, then we are all being forced into tyranofexes.

I'm probably the only guy out here that actually wishes we DID have drop pod assault. Its all about buying some pods you dont intend to use for transport so you have the CHOICE if you want to pod on turn 1 with the good stuff or not. Hell, 4 pods in a list, 2 carnifex and 2 zoanthropes would be great. If he reserves against you, drop the fexes into play, lying in wait for his arrival, if he is on table, the zoanthropes come down first and shut down devastating shooting units before you are scooping up your tervigons.

Mahu wrote:Hive Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Lashwhip/Bonesword, Life Leech, Paroxysm, Prefered Enemy, +1 reserves rolls, Armor upgrade = 280

Something like this will probably appear in my lists again soon, unless you manage to figure out that he isn't worth taking and let me know first. 2+ armor is a pretty big deal. Specifically against marines. Forget about space wolves being able to kill this guy from range. But, 280 points... man that stings.

Mahu wrote:3 Zoenthropes = 180

I'm sorry, but... 18" range, T4 only 2 wounds.... It really, really shocks me that you think that this unit is going to get a single meaningful shot off. Any and every space marine army i field can remove this unit in one turn, in a very broad probability set. I can't really say any more than that. godpseed, and if you learn some tricks with the foot version, please pass them on. Also, they ahve shadow in the warp, why aren't you putting that on pyskers?

Mahu wrote:Deathleaper = 140

Yep.

Mahu wrote:10 Termagaunts = 50

Don't be afraid to buy more than the minimum here. For all intents and purposes, they are 5 point furious charging counter attacking poisoned infantry models. In this particularl list they have preferred enemy too

Mahu wrote:Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200

Yep.

Mahu wrote:9 Genestealers = 126

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

Make sure you play against marines, and make sure there is 25% terrain on the table. This unit has gotten me red-faced angry. I hesitate to call "fail" because i have attempted game design before and it was a humbling experience. But I am not interested in already risking bad placement thanks to outflank being random, then having to hope for certain table conditions, with a troop choice. Not my bag. i like my own generalship to have more impact on game outcome than dice, genestealers outflanking without frags are a hope and a prayer. YMMV, I hope it does, but steel yourself for some angry-making mismatches. For instance, are you cool with 10 genestealers losing combat to a 30 man infantry blob? Because... well, they do.

Mahu wrote:Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

I love this build theoretically. 10 points more than a trygon with adrenal. two less cc attacks with +2 strength, two strength 6 hits and a strength 7 small blast on arrival versus three strength 5 hits. same number of wounds, but in two units and takes up way more real estate. Please, report your findings, I am super interested.

Mahu wrote:Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295

This was some fun theory-hammer that Manimal showed me. To get a regenerate roll that has a likelihood of higher than 50% you need to have lost 4 wounds. If you lost 4 wounds in a turn, then gain one wound back, and then you lose 4 wounds again next turn, regenerate did nothing. If an army is incapable of doing 4 wounds per turn from long range, it is unlikely that they'll waste any long range shooting on you at all, instead waiting until they can either melta you dead completely, or just let you live all game, something they'd likely have done even if you didnt have regenerate. i know that is just a number-playing exercise, and doesn't mean as much as player psychology and in-game results, but regenerate across the board does not trigger in game fast enough for it to be valid IMO. A smart opponent can manipulate when and how many regen tests you can make, burning you on points spent. In my opinion. I won't go to the mat for that stance, and i know you are just including it to see for yourself.

Mahu wrote:My bad. I will check the points and I may drop Toxic on the Tervigon to get Catalyst. I believe the importance of Updgrades on a Tervigon is A. Catalyst, B. Adrenal Glands, C. Toxin, D. Scything Talons.

Do you rate Adrenal Glands higher as they help the Tervigon kill Tanks or the fact that Gaunts get Furious Charge when they Counter-Assault?

I am still trying to think of good ways to use the Hive Tyrant.

"Tactical Insight" is effectively adding one point to the cost of each Gaunt to give them flanking. If you Deep Strike a Flyrant, or just walk in from reserves you do not have to worry about him dying before you get the +1 Reserve roll. With the best of the Tyrants Psi Powers being short-range Shooting attacks it does not seem worth while to give him more than one gun. Since those Psi powers want to be aimed at Troops a single Assault 6 Devourer looks the best option to me. The only Bio-morph I really like is Toxic Miasma as it helps thin the herd. Strength from Adrenal Glands is good for tank hunting however with a Lash Whip you should not really need the Initiative boost.

Minimalistic Flyrant - Wings & Toxic Miasma
This one manages to, just, cost less than a Land Raider and is designed for taking out troops. You can take double Talons for the extra re-rolls but personally I think the Sword and Whip, well really just the Whip, will be more useful. I would like to slap "Old Adversary" on top. Guess I will have to wait and see how often I can keep Assault units within 6".

Character Killer - Double Talons, Implant Attack, Toxic Sacs
This one can Re-roll both 'to hit' and 'to wound' as well as cause Instant Death on a 6. However I am not convinced it is worth taking those upgrades since you will probably need Wings as well.

Synapse Hub Tyrant - Extended Carapace, TL Hvy Devourer, Bonesword & Whip, Toxic Miasma, Old Adversary
This is my Swarm HQ. They have nice synergy together as the swarm give him a much needed cover save* and he gives them Re-rolls and reduces opponents WS/BS. 'Old Adversary' does push the cost up I am just hoping it proves to be worthwhile. Tyrant is reasonable in melee and still able to make use of both shooting attacks (one gun & one Psi Power) each turn.

My only other idea was to take the Barbed Strangler for pinning opposing troops so the swarm can assault despite the lack of grenades and gives slightly better range. If I had points left (which is unlikely given how expensive Monsters are) I would add Adreanal Glands just to help against Tanks. Nothing else looks like it is worth taking. Any one else have suggestions?


* Providing you have something more than just Termagants in the swarm. I am going to use some Gargoyles and Hive Guard.