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I'm going with the Heavy Venom Cannon on my Tyrant, Yes, it's not terribly likely to kill tanks, but it should at least slow them down or keep them from shooting until my other stuffs get time/range to deal with them. The whole army seems to just eat Infantry, so I don't know that you need to take upgrades or options designed to be better at that role.

Hive guard are significantly more dense than zoanthropes (model-wise), and nearly as tall. they would actually create mobile cover for an MC much better than zoans, and they can get cover in a snap from just a couple spare termagants. They benefit from catalyst much more than zoanthropes, they are cheaper, and if you are just going to be walking them across the table, 24" range gun beats 18" range psychic power.

To me it's mostly about strength. In a local meta where ever other army is two Land Raider Space Marine lists, I am just not having good fortune with Hive Guard. Even when I played against AV 12 Heavy Guard I didn't really miss them.

Plus I use a combination of Gaunts and Zoenthropes to get my reasonably justified 4+ save.

Lack of adrenals on raveners, lack of frags on genestealers, the +1 reserves nerf on lictors, and the mediocrity of the heavy venom cannon are the four things currently pissing me off more than anything else in the codex.

I agree, somethings just don't make sense. The Trygon's hole is another thing that get's to me. If only my Outflankers can use it too. I disagree about Drop Pod assault because it's too easy for your opponent to react to that. If anything I managed better in my game versus IG simple because I was able to react to him holding things in reserve better.

Something like this will probably appear in my lists again soon, unless you manage to figure out that he isn't worth taking and let me know first. 2+ armor is a pretty big deal. Specifically against marines. Forget about space wolves being able to kill this guy from range. But, 280 points... man that stings.

I hear you. The way I look at it, I can either get the 2+ save or at least one Tyrant Guard. I think the 2+ is better in the long run, as MLs have it too easy taking down guards (and I avoid the possible arguments). Plus I can regenerate wounds through Life Leech (which worked rather well the one time I used it in previous games).

I'm sorry, but... 18" range, T4 only 2 wounds.... It really, really shocks me that you think that this unit is going to get a single meaningful shot off. Any and every space marine army i field can remove this unit in one turn, in a very broad probability set. I can't really say any more than that. godpseed, and if you learn some tricks with the foot version, please pass them on. Also, they ahve shadow in the warp, why aren't you putting that on pyskers?

The unit held 3 turns against IG firepower. With FNP and a 3+ invulnerable it was hard to take them down, and they accounted for immobilizing one tank and wrecking another. Was it a fair trade in points? I dunno, but it got my Tyrannofex and Tervigon midfield by turn 4.

Shadow in the Warp is fine on Psykers, but I have the Death Leaper already making it hard for the model to cast, and I am afraid of putting Zoenthropes too close to the enemy for them to effect it. I am more afraid for Zoenthropes in assault, then I am enemy shooting. But that could just be my experience. I may pod them yet.

Don't be afraid to buy more than the minimum here. For all intents and purposes, they are 5 point furious charging counter attacking poisoned infantry models. In this particularl list they have preferred enemy too

I thought about that but it all comes down to points. 50 points could be another pod in a list. I have tried larger squads and have been impressed, but it fluctuates with me whether I should field more or not. For this list I needed the extra points.

Make sure you play against marines, and make sure there is 25% terrain on the table. This unit has gotten me red-faced angry. I hesitate to call "fail" because i have attempted game design before and it was a humbling experience. But I am not interested in already risking bad placement thanks to outflank being random, then having to hope for certain table conditions, with a troop choice. Not my bag. i like my own generalship to have more impact on game outcome than dice, genestealers outflanking without frags are a hope and a prayer. YMMV, I hope it does, but steel yourself for some angry-making mismatches. For instance, are you cool with 10 genestealers losing combat to a 30 man infantry blob? Because... well, they do.

I think it depends. I take three so I am almost guaranteed I can have two on a side that I want. I already mentioned that I won't outflank them every time. Plus in my list I have monsters in pods that can show up at the same time they do, so if I can't reach somebody within a reasonable 15", I can get cover and distract my opponent with other parts of my army.

I love this build theoretically. 10 points more than a trygon with adrenal. two less cc attacks with +2 strength, two strength 6 hits and a strength 7 small blast on arrival versus three strength 5 hits. same number of wounds, but in two units and takes up way more real estate. Please, report your findings, I am super interested.

They performed admirably the first time. But now that my opponent is a little wiser to them we will see. Like I said, the upside is that I have a better opportunity to get the cover then the Trygon.

A smart opponent can manipulate when and how many regen tests you can make, burning you on points spent. In my opinion. I won't go to the mat for that stance, and i know you are just including it to see for yourself.

Admittedly the first time I used the Tyrannofex, it was wiped out in a shooting phase, though that was my fault I kinda put him out there with no support, I will try and be wiser this time. I just have to see how well regenerate works. I tried it on the Tervigon on my previous list and it did nothing. So I, like you, have my doubts. If it's a failure in my first test game, the Zoenthropes are getting a pod.

Do you rate Adrenal Glands higher as they help the Tervigon kill Tanks or the fact that Gaunts get Furious Charge when they Counter-Assault?

Is both an answer?

Poison is nice, but if I was pressed for points, I can see not taking it. Though it would be painful not to.

I think the Tyrant still has his place. My main goal in taking him in a list that has a possible heavy amount of Reserves is that he can provide me reliable turn two bonuses. Plus he buffs the army when the crap hits the fan, but we will see.

If I can, I will try and do a Batrep like Sheps to show my findings.

Mahu wrote:-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Lashwhip/Bonesword, Life Leech, Paroxysm, Prefered Enemy, +1 reserves rolls, Armor upgrade = 280

That is a lot of points. Its as much as the Swarmlord. I'm not sure I have the stomach to field that in games less than 2k. Perhaps I am still coming to grips with the new point values. A tyrant offers lots of nifty stuff, but dang.

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200

Did you also give him scything talons? cause that loadout is only 195

Every time I look at the hive tyrant is just like man that is a lot of damn points for a +1 reserve roll. Then I look at the Alpha Warriors and its Man, I could get two of those for 1 Hive tyrant.

ramongoroth wrote:

Mahu wrote:-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Heavy Venom Cannon, Lashwhip/Bonesword, Life Leech, Paroxysm, Prefered Enemy, +1 reserves rolls, Armor upgrade = 280

That is a lot of points. Its as much as the Swarmlord. I'm not sure I have the stomach to field that in games less than 2k. Perhaps I am still coming to grips with the new point values. A tyrant offers lots of nifty stuff, but dang.

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin = 200

Did you also give him scything talons? cause that loadout is only 195

If you have a swarmlord with tyrant guards and tevigons running up with it for feel no pain it really then seems worth the points

I think a pure cc type list that focuses on overwhelming the opponent is the way to go.

To do this I will need a swarm that will be able to take 3 turns of shooting.

With several choices from gaunts to gargoyles I will be able to do this easily.

I also need to make this swarm deadly so that when it hits, it will able to destroy my opponent.

Splashing in the hive tyrant and warriors I can do this as mcs and warriors with their various loadouts will be able to reliably beat marines in cc or take down rear av 10.

I can make the swarm very deadly to assault mech threats such as land raiders by adding in zoanthropes with a range of 24 any vehicle that gets to close to the swarm without alot of backup will be blown to pieces then annihilated.

However the win factor for this list will be trygons appearing on turn 2 or 3 around the same time the swarm reaches charge range, so that the assault on turn 3 or 4 is devestating. Trygons only have to worry about one round of shooting, before they get to attack with six wounds and careful placing you should be able to survive easily.

Inorder to do all these things I will not invest in shooty upgrades such as venom cannons or hive guard. I will instead buy upgrades such as adrenal glands that will make everything capable of harming vehicles or extended carapace which makes the tyrant as hard to hurt as a tyranofex. The swarm will also run every turn as getting to the enemy is vital.

What do you guys think?

For a 280 point Tyrant you should really consider fielding the Swarm Lord. He has got it all plus some more.

G

CKO wrote:However the win factor for this list will be trygons appearing on turn 2 or 3 around the same time the swarm reaches charge range, so that the assault on turn 3 or 4 is devestating. Trygons only have to worry about one round of shooting, before they get to attack with six wounds and careful placing you should be able to survive easily.

Inorder to do all these things I will not invest in shooty upgrades such as venom cannons or hive guard. I will instead buy upgrades such as adrenal glands that will make everything capable of harming vehicles or extended carapace which makes the tyrant as hard to hurt as a tyranofex. The swarm will also run every turn as getting to the enemy is vital.

What do you guys think?

I think you may be overestimating the survivability of Trygons. I think you may be overestimating how easy it is to catch, much less crack, vehicles in HtH. And I think that you should definitely give it a try, as everything we're doing at this stage is theory.

Don't forget the Alpha warrior can attach to Hive Guard and walking Zoans to increase their survivability. You can give him regenerate for cheap to potentially soak up even more wounds.

I'm thinking Alpha Warrior attached to large blocks of guants could be useful also for holding objectives or dominating midfield.

The list I'm planning on testing will be:

2 Alpha Warriors + Bonesword/lashwhip
2x Zoan w/pod
2x Zoan w/pod
Deathleaper
2x Trevigon
2x 20 termagaunt
2x Trygon (might go with alphas)
Tyrannofex

I'm not sure where the sweetspot will be for Zoanthrope units. Since they can no longer act independently I think 2 may be all you need, with the 3rd being overkill. I'll be testing both brood sizes though.

I really like the idea of podding Screamer Killers, however I also really love the Trygon model.

Steelmage99 wrote:Tyranids DO NOT have Drop Pod Assault.

PS. I have the codex in front of me.

Yup. Double checked it today too. We've been playing it wrong.

CKO wrote:I think a pure cc type list that focuses on overwhelming the opponent is the way to go.

......

What do you guys think?

I hope that it works as I like that particular style of nids. But I think it will depend a lot on what mechanized army you're facing and terrain.

I think you might have a hard time against something like mech Eldar if you rely on Zoans for your ranged anti-tank. With runes of warding one Zoan has roughly an 11-12% chance of popping an armor 12 skimmer from the front or side. For a unit of three its about 32% (rear armor 10 is about 14% and 36%). Thats on a non wave serpent without holofields. Against a wave serpent (your str drops to 8) or a holofield falcon/prism the chances are roughly 6% for one zoan and 17% for three. They're slighly different but it's minimal. If the skimmers moved fast for a cover save, it drops a tiny bit but the extra wrecked results from immobilized on both tables makes it almost a wash. Anyway the Eldar are so mobile that they might be able to zoom around and pick you apart. When your stuff deep strikes, if they can still move, they could be moving away 24" (or more). Or they have enough firepower, and you only get one MC to drop it is within reason that it will go poof. I also agree with Janthkin that you might be overestimating the the little guys' ability to do much to tanks, even with rending and/or furious charge.

Again I hope it does work, but I'm not optimistic.

Edited - added the wave serpent shield thingy and holofields.

Does the Swarmlord have a 2+ save, because that is the only reason my Hive Tyrant is that expensive.

CKO wrote:
What do you guys think?

I think the elite stealers may be viable for anti "non av14" vehicles, they can assault they come into play at str5/rending, thats pretty dangerous for light/medium vehicle rear armor, the only way to counter it is to have vehicles in contant high speed motion (since they dont know where they will appear) which should either extend the lines or reduce the amount of firepower heading downfield at the rest of your bugs.

tried them yesterday, put terrain in either deployment zone on purpose which he avoided like the plague thinking i put the stealers there, couple spore mines to reduce options, i put them deep-midfield, popped out and ate a unit of lemans, nom nom nom, payed for in full and then some

Mahu wrote:Does the Swarmlord have a 2+ save, because that is the only reason my Hive Tyrant is that expensive.

No. It has a 3+ and 4+ invul in close combat. The Swarmlord does have 5 wounds and nifty abilities though.

That's what I thought. It's an interesting trade-off, a 2+ save and a heavy venom cannon for an invulnerable save in CC and the ability to cast two powers.

The problem I have with a Swarmlord is that he tends to get bogged down in a combat, he only has 5 attacks, and can still be taken out in CC by Nobz, Wolf Guard, etc. I am taking a regular Tyrant because I have close to the same utility as the swarmlord, a better save, and a long ranged weapon (that I can combine with my powers).

I may try both and see what happens.

Mahu wrote:That's what I thought. It's an interesting trade-off, a 2+ save and a heavy venom cannon for an invulnerable save in CC and the ability to cast two powers.

The problem I have with a Swarmlord is that he tends to get bogged down in a combat, he only has 5 attacks, and can still be taken out in CC by Nobz, Wolf Guard, etc. I am taking a regular Tyrant because I have close to the same utility as the swarmlord, a better save, and a long ranged weapon (that I can combine with my powers).

I may try both and see what happens.

the good part being that each hit is instant death... no psychic rolling or anything just death and if they have an inv save.....they must reroll it if sucessful =D

Ok, some more brainstorming, some more epiphanies....

Linkdead your list is looking good...


Well, I am going to talk a little bit about cost cutting for nids. I was able to write up a list with 20 more termagants and an MC that i didn't think i was going to fit, because I decided to make my bugs more focused.

First off, in case you haven't done the math yet. There are only a few bugs that can kill a tank that doesn't really want to be killed. The rest of the bugs can create a half-assed work around, but the numbers really, really don't amount to consistent armor kill.

Zoanthropes
Hive Guard
Tyrranofexes
trygons with adrenal glands
carnifex with dual scytals only (podded)
hive tyrant with wings dual scytals and adrenal glands

In my opinion, if the unit you are equipping did not appear in this list, throw out any single point you would have spent to increase anti-tank. this point leads directly to the heavy venom cannon. I know I've included at least one in almost every list I've posted, but the numbers and game experience is in, and I'm here to say that the HVC is a red herring. For all intents and purposes it is just a bad lascannon, you get a small blast (not helpful when it is an anti-tank gun), it isn't ap2 and there is that majorly annoying -1. For 5 LESS points, anyone that can have an HVC can take what would normally be a vehicle mounted weapon only. The stranglethorn cannon is all kinds of good, if you happen to have the correct target in play. And that is why you take either tyrranofexes or zoanthropes. You know, the ones with the guns that can actually kill a tank.

This method has saved me points on adrenal glands where not necessary, and saved me slots on single scytals on units that will be within 6" of an old adversay tyrant. I was able to get more lash whips, which strengthens my charging into cover game.

Anyway, a while ago i posted my three archetypes of nids. And i think I've really hammered out how it all works here. There is a necron-esque phalanx, there is an aggro drop rush, full reserve list, and there is a hybrid. Lemme show you what fits into 1750 when you define each bugs role more clearly.

PHALANX

hive tyrant with old adversay, paroxysm and life leech, stranglethorn cannon, lash whip and bonesword, 2+ armor
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
23x termagants
23x termagants
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands
tyrranofex with rupture cannon
tyrranofex with rupture cannon

I had discovered that hive guard are disadvantaged in dawn of war and slightly in spearhead, and i was ready to shelf them. But then I realized that its ok if they spend one or two turns getting into position if they themselves have fire support. this army plays really easy. If your opponent has a lot of missile launchers, FNP your tervigons, if all they have is autocannons, FNP your hive guard. Now that you put enemy land raiders on a clock with the rupture cannons, they can't dance around and wait for that perfect tank shock. make sure your termagant screen is deep enough so that no matter how far forward they tank shock, all land raider doors will be blocked. They'll be forced to wait, or to charge termagants, and well.... they'll just straight up die to the termagants they charge. Against IG, target lascannons aggressively. Once they don't have any more vendettas, then what do you have to be afraid of? Autocannons? No, manticores? Nope, multi-lasers? Nope. It'll be a slow game, and you won't survive with everything, but if you can take down their lascannons, then each of your tyrranofexes will get to fire for 6 turns. That should be bad news for IG.

AGGRO RUSH

alpha warrior lash whip and bonesword
3x zoanthropes in a pod
3x zoanthropes in a pod
deathleaper
4x warriors with lash whip and bonesword toxin sacs and scything talons in a pod
3x warriors with lash whip and bonesword toxin sacs and scything talons in a pod
3x warriors with lash whip and bonesword toxin sacs and scything talons in a pod
trygon with adrenal gland
trygon with adrenal gland

This one won't get any testing time from me as I'm not all that interested in it, at least initially. The trygons and zoanthropes replace the hive guard and tyrranofexes respectively, and we have CC units that can actually win combat against models in cover! My warriors aren't tested at all, but I am currently shelving genestealers (I think robin wants us to run 15+ stealers per unit, to overcome their frag problem, and I don't like that many points invested in flamer bait) it may be that the warriors fall back to a more hybrid role and run deathspitter and scything talons. but in order to even make the list of respectable CC, they need power weapons, and with their fragility, they also need lash whips. Charge a unit of harlequins without lash whips and see how that works out for you

The awesome thing about these two lists, is that if we keep the "roles" straight (anti-land raider, anti-transport, CC) We can make a hybrid, and if we drop another 25 points onto the hive tyrant, we can get hive commander.

HYBRID

hive tyrant with old adversay, hive commander, paroxysm and life leech, stranglethorn cannon, lash whip and bonesword, 2+ armor
3x zoanthropes in a pod
2x zoanthropes in a pod
deathleaper
10x termagants
10x termagants
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands
trygon adrenal glands
trygon adrenal glands

This one is actually 5 points over, but you can make the stranglethorn cannon a pair of devourers and come out right on points. So I cut two tyrranofexes, but added two zoanthropes, I also cut two hive guard units but added comparable transport kill in the two trygons and the zoanthrope pods to an extent. I have less reserves, but they are more likely to come in on time thanks to hive commander.

I really like the hive tyrant/termagant/tervigon troop/hq core. They are a massive force, very, very difficult to assault, and if you don't have a lot of long range ap2, very very difficult to shoot the working parts. Rather than pack tons of ap2 i think more people are going to need to bring template weapons, or other horde shredders like thunderfire cannons. That can at least open up some charge lanes to things you actually want to be fighting. They can push to table center and just take over the board. They just need enough shooting support to put a clock on mech armies, if mech armies need to rush in quicker than they'd like, they'll get taken down really fast.

A note on the hive guard survivability. It takes 11 missile launcher hits to kill three zoanthropes, it takes 15 missile launcher hits to kill hive guard in cover. If you put FNP on hive guard double that, if you put fnp on zoanthropes, nothing changes. If you see as many long fang units, land speeder typhoons and tactical squads as i do, that should mean something. Also, once the tyranid army gets popular... who wins the shooting war. The guy who took hive guard, or the guy who took zoanthropes?

Let me know what you think. I have four games slated this weekend. I'm testing the phalanx list versus double land raider tonight, and I am playing against tyranids with my tourney IG list and with my newest space marine LRC fire support hybrid. Reports will be flowing in on sunday night

The 2+ save seems superior to me, since it *really* helps against all those krak missiles.

Hey guys

Looking forward to the new models tomorrow, and definitely getting 1 if not 2 boxes of Ravenors. Question is: any thoughts on what to give them for upgrades? Should they have rending claws? Devourers?

Orangecoke wrote:Hey guys

Looking forward to the new models tomorrow, and definitely getting 1 if not 2 boxes of Ravenors. Question is: any thoughts on what to give them for upgrades? Should they have rending claws? Devourers?

IIRC the devourers are incorporated into their chest. You could always magnetize 2 of the arms so you can switch back and forth.

Also, thanks for all the testing you guys are doing. It is very helpful reading as I plan on what changes to make to my tyranid army. Keep up the good work!

will you be running them in conjunction with trygons?

If so than you can hope to use the trygon tunnel so that you can deploy spread out and therefore safely use their guns. i would recommend deathspitters.

If you will be running them without trygons, and deep striking them, then it is likely that you will always run after deep striking, and it will be difficult to use the guns effectively.

I would recommend rending claws. you will hit far els often but can threaten a greater range of models. Glue the rendig claw arms in with super glue instead of plastic glue. That way if you do change your mind, you are probably going to be able to pop them out.

@ Shep, just a question but can alpha warriors join termagants and if so would the termagants be BS 5 WS 5 or does his synergies only affect warriors?

Thank you Shep. You provide a great insight, I think mine gets clouded by my own personal plans.

I agree on the Heavy Venom cannon, and I think I fell into "internet logic" too quickly on that one. The Stranglehorn doesn't really impress me either though. I think I will run your Hive Tyrant load out in my game this week and see what happens.

A note on the hive guard survivability. It takes 11 missile launcher hits to kill three zoanthropes, it takes 15 missile launcher hits to kill hive guard in cover. If you put FNP on hive guard double that, if you put fnp on zoanthropes, nothing changes. If you see as many long fang units, land speeder typhoons and tactical squads as i do, that should mean something. Also, once the tyranid army gets popular... who wins the shooting war. The guy who took hive guard, or the guy who took zoanthropes?

I still have a problem liking them, maybe it has to do with only one or two Rhinos in the Land Raider Heavy lists I run across. Last test game against the Space Wolves they ignored the Guard altogether, just taking out a MC a turn. Since the Long Fangs had cover, and the Rhino had 3+ cover (that fun little tactic of hiding the front side with a Land Raider) their shooting was less then effective.

Maybe I am wrong.

I am also still having trouble relying totally on Gaunts as my only scoring units. It doesn't help that every time I have generated Gaunts with a Tervigon, it got depressed and wouldn't make more babies for me, no matter how many candles I lit and romantic comedies I rented.

You have convinced me to revist my list, I do have the advantage of playing at 2000 in my local area:

Hive Tyrant with old adversay, hive commander, paroxysm and life leech, stranglethorn cannon, lash whip and bonesword, 2+ armor = 275
3x zoanthropes in a pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
10 termagants = 50
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands = 220
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in a pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma. Frag in a pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon = 265

Yep I will have 1 Trygon in the force.

I think the 2+ save on a Tyrant is all about your local Meta. Very few people where I'm at use missile launchers with any frequency other than myself. Maybe a couple, but here, it's all about stacking up on lascannons. I think Battle Cannons and Basalisks are the only AP3 things that you see with much regularity, so I'll probably save the points and just go with no Thorax upgrades on mine.

Mahu wrote:I agree on the Heavy Venom cannon, and I think I fell into "internet logic" too quickly on that one. The Stranglehorn doesn't really impress me either though. I think I will run your Hive Tyrant load out in my game this week and see what happens.

Wait until you run into hybrid mech IG. Heavy weapons squads don't like the stranglethorn cannon, not one bit. Instant death large blast that causes pinning. Its actually the worst possible gun for them to face. I'll lay a strangelthron cannon on a combat squad with missile launcher, unless they put their sergeant in that half, then failing an armor save from it hands them a pretty crappy pin test. it's not somehow this super awesome gun, I just like it a hell of a lot more than the HVC. I also checked out the twin devourers with brainworms. Welcome to Ap-. I'll pass...

Mahu wrote:I still have a problem liking them, maybe it has to do with only one or two Rhinos in the Land Raider Heavy lists I run across. Last test game against the Space Wolves they ignored the Guard altogether, just taking out a MC a turn. Since the Long Fangs had cover, and the Rhino had 3+ cover (that fun little tactic of hiding the front side with a Land Raider) their shooting was less then effective.

They aren't for killing long fangs, they aren't for killing land raiders. You need land raider kill that is firing right on turn 1 if you run them, I don't imagine I'll ever run them without at least two tyrranofexes. if no t-fex, then I'll be needing zoans. In that space wolf game, you just go and take over table center. Whatever is in that land raider probably can't handle supergants, and that rhino is going to have to eventually reveal itself to make for an objective. If he had been ignoring your hive guard all game that probably means its going to get popped. The trouble is if you don't put their land raider on a clock. then they don't have any motivation to get stuck in, and you can't really kill it. i don't know how non podding zoanthropes help the situation, and if you are podding them, then you need the deathleaper, and you can cut t-fexes for something more aggressive.

Mahu wrote:I am also still having trouble relying totally on Gaunts as my only scoring units. It doesn't help that every time I have generated Gaunts with a Tervigon, it got depressed and wouldn't make more babies for me, no matter how many candles I lit and romantic comedies I rented.

Haha, well, notice that my list that i really like has 46 gants standard. I am guaranteed close to 70 gants per game. i also have the benefit of hindsight due to playing a kan wall for an entire tourney season last year. The trick is.. If you have very large units, and your army excels at heading into midfield and just hanging out there like a kan wall does, then objective aren't a problem. you can score three objectives with one 24 model gant unit. Remember the tervigons score too. Its actually quite robust in scoring units, provided you can keep the tervigons alive through proper screening/blocking and shooting support. i didn't run kommandos or even deffkoptas back then, I just had some good shooting, and a block of models that it wasn't safe to wade too close to. Lootas = hive guard and tyrranofexes, kans = tervigons and hive tyrant, boys = termagants. It's not flashy, but it really just makes the table seem tilted hard your way when you look at it from the other side. You hear a lot of "how am I going to go around or through THAT!"

Mahu wrote:Hive Tyrant with old adversay, hive commander, paroxysm and life leech, stranglethorn cannon, lash whip and bonesword, 2+ armor = 275
3x zoanthropes in a pod = 220
Deathleaper = 140
10 termagants = 50
tervigon with catalyst, crushing claws, toxin sacs and adrenal glands = 220
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
9 Genestealers = 126
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, Frag in a pod = 225
Carnifex w/ Bioplasma. Frag in a pod = 225
Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon = 265

that list is probably going to own people. It appears tohave plenty of anti-land raider, decent anti-transport (although you will have problems chasing down the fast transports) and good anti-infantry from your cc units and your tervigon/tyrranofex.

The single tervigon is probably vulnerable enough to assault with only 10 termagants plus his babies to screen him, but thats ok, you have 27 genestealers. Pretty solid list IMO. If the genestealers work for you then i have no complaints.

I am glad I have switched my IG squad loadouts to Lascannons, and Meltaguns. I have been running them that way for about 2 months now...and IMHO, that is the best config for them in the current meta in my area + it can also deal with the new nid codex as well. Suddenly, that 2+ save on the bigger bugs doesn't work so good...and with LC love peppered throughout my army...it's hard to shut them all down before they deliver their damage. The Demolisher tank is still king and I think that all IG armies should start with one in their armies. Many, many games vs. many, many opponents and experience tell me this. It is the most versatile tank in the heavy support slot. It has an answer for every unit in the game. I think that IG players are going to start bringing more banewolfs and eradicators to test the waters as well. I already have one banewolf in my army and I swear by it's effectiveness. These units, paired with a moderate peppering of LC's I think the IG can handle any Tyranid list.

CaptKaruthors wrote:I am glad I have switched my IG squad loadouts to Lascannons, and Meltaguns. I have been running them that way for about 2 months now...and IMHO, that is the best config for them in the current meta in my area + it can also deal with the new nid codex as well. Suddenly, that 2+ save on the bigger bugs doesn't work so good...and with LC love peppered throughout my army...it's hard to shut them all down before they deliver their damage. The Demolisher tank is still king and I think that all IG armies should start with one in their armies. Many, many games vs. many, many opponents and experience tell me this. It is the most versatile tank in the heavy support slot. It has an answer for every unit in the game. I think that IG players are going to start bringing more banewolfs and eradicators to test the waters as well. I already have one banewolf in my army and I swear by it's effectiveness. These units, paired with a moderate peppering of LC's I think the IG can handle any Tyranid list.

Its really kinda funny. Now we see why Robin made the heavy bolter the same cost as the autocannon. Against Nids, the good guns just spread away from 'balanced' guns being the missile launcher and autocannon, and now it is hands down better to have a bunch of heavy bolters and lascannons.

The only unit in the codex that I'd prefer to fire at with an autocannon is the hive guard. Every other competitive choice either shrugs off the autocannon with T6 and a 3+ save, or would better handled with a heavy bolter (warriors, zoanthropes, raveners, termagants, hormagaunts, genestealers)

The only units in the dex I'd want a missile launcher for are carnifexes, trygons, the odd tyrant and guard unit that didn't get the memo about 2+ saves, raveners, lictors, warriors and zoanthropes. Quick numbers rundown on the zoanthropes, the missile launcher may instant death them, but a same BS heavy bolter will actually make you take saves at double the rate, making it a better zoan killer. Strength 8 is superior for warriors and raveners and lictors, due to their 3 wounds.

Tervigons have feel no pain, hive tyrants have 2+ armor, t-fexes have 2+ armor, you really want multi-melta or lascannon here.

I definitely have to take a look at my autocannon teams and my hydras in my IG army. We might see the old executioner come back again, and we might even see me shell out the 105 point per unit for lascannon HWS. its not like lascannons are any worse at killing tanks. i also need to consider upgrading my missile launcher to lascannon in my tactical squads, or to switch over to the multi-melta and use it defensively again.

If we all end up doing this, and the missile launchers start to dissappear, you may start to see trygons and tyrant guard return, but until then... I think those two units have way too many long fang units to face down.

Shep wrote:If we all end up doing this, and the missile launchers start to dissappear, you may start to see trygons and tyrant guard return, but until then... I think those two units have way too many long fang units to face down.

Surely trygons can deep-strike & say hi to those on-foot long-fangs? 6 str5 hits equates to 1-2 dead long fangs. Combine that with the shooting of a tunnel-striking unit & thats a dead/crippled long-fang unit..

Locatable board edges for pinpoint reserve based firepower.. good, no?

Razerous wrote:

Shep wrote:If we all end up doing this, and the missile launchers start to dissappear, you may start to see trygons and tyrant guard return, but until then... I think those two units have way too many long fang units to face down.

Surely trygons can deep-strike & say hi to those on-foot long-fangs? 6 str5 hits equates to 1-2 dead long fangs. Combine that with the shooting of a tunnel-striking unit & thats a dead/crippled long-fang unit..

Locatable board edges for pinpoint reserve based firepower.. good, no?

trygon hasn't worked out. Forgot about that other long fang unit standing right next to it, the 4 meltas from grey hunters and the beast slayer living lightning.

I was about as shocked as could be when i saw my first three trygons die on arrival in test games.... not so shocked any more.