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Did you try bringing them in with venomthropes? Make those 6 wounds become 8+effective. What exactly killed them so hard? How about using them more defensively, unlike drop-pods. I understand I'm not totally experienced with extremely optimized armies but.. all three?!

Razerous wrote:Did you try bringing them in with venomthropes? Make those 6 wounds become 8+effective. What exactly killed them so hard? How about using them more defensively, unlike drop-pods. I understand I'm not totally experienced with extremely optimized armies but.. all three?!

i didn't mean that all three of them arrived in one turn, and then were all killed... I'm not that hyperbolic. haha

What I meant was, the first time I played with them, I set one down defensively, but still close enough to charge what I needed killed on the following turn, and i was surprised at what killed it. that surprise continued when I watched arriving trygons die faster than I anticipated in future turns.

The problem with deep striking three trygons is that they never show up on the same turn.

I am giving venomthropes a try tonight, but in an entirely different context. i want to see how the theory hammer of their survivability differs from the actuality. People have such limited amount of 48" range weaponry, that every turn they try and kill him off from long range is basically a free pass for other MCs. the drop pod versions with alpha warriors also intrigue me. It is nice to test peoples ability to kill them, especially when there are other vital things to kill.

what killed trygons so hard in two games were exorcists, and in one game long fangs. The long fangs were screened by a unit of fenrisian wolves joined by a wolf guard battle leader, so i got to eat two rounds for them. The exorcists were screened by guardsmen, so same story.

I don't think trygons are underpowered, nor unusable, all i was saying in my previous post was that missile launchers are good at killing them, thats not refutable.

What trygons can't do is be a substitute for a shooting phase. I've tried it, you need zoanthropes, hive guard or tyrranofexes in some combination. Or trygon gets taken down. if it had a 12" charge? then maybe we see the all choppy army, but it has to challenge all those special weapons if it wants to declare a charge in the following turn, and it dies a lot to that kind of firepower.

I really want to see how a Alpha Warrior accompanying a squad of venomthropes does.


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edit:
You can easily give Trigons cover saves with Drop Pods or Drop Pods w/ Warriors. Maybe you should try that?

I'm having a test game today...not sure against who yet though. Will be running:
Tervigon (with catalyst)
Deathleaper
10 gaunts
12 hormagaunts in pods
12 hormagaunts in pods
trygon alpha (I need the synapse)
mawloc

It's gonna be a 1k test game and running the numbers I think it's gonna do quite well. Whatever deadly firebase the opponet has the mawloc should hit it hard if it's infantry or merely distract it if it's a tank. Take the pressure off my trygon for a turn or 2 allowing it to get where it needs to be.

I agree with shep about the units which should focus on antitank upgrades. If it's not that good in the first place, why upgrade to make it marginally better? Focus on the anti infantry side and you should simply overwhelm your opponents.

1 unit I feel that deserves a mention are the Ymgarl stealers. I feel that in larger games they have the potential to be deadly. They force your opponent out of cover meaning you can push them into the open for your swarm to hit them at regular initiative. I know that they take up an elite slot which is invaluable in the new codex (zoantropes, hive guard and deathleaper), but I'm thinking cut out the hive guard to make a shock list. Of course you probably need a tyrant in this setup giving plus 1 to reserves to co-ordinate well, but if the majority of your cheap troops are in pods I think it can be quite deadly.

And if you run tyrannofexes you don't even lose that much antitank, though transports can be slightly more troublesome...too many of the damned things.

My store actually got their shipment of 'dexes today!

Congrats! Mine arrived thursday and I spent 2 evenings putting together my new models. It feels good!

I have my codex in hand now so no more exercises in rumorhammer for me. I'm quite excited to start playtesting now.

Shep I like the two new lists you have presented today as they fit in with my vision for the new bugz. I think super gaunts in deep rank are going to rock. Your opponent can't ignore them so it will help to free up other heavy hitters.

Tyrants I have heard a lot of meh feedback... From what I've heard they tend to be glass hammers. I'm just going on hearsay at this point though so take what I say with a grain of salt. Of course.

Super gaunts (syctal) have the following:

•Fleet
•Move through Cover
•Furious Charge
•Reroll 1s to hit
•Can be juiced with Feel No Pain

They start getting kind of pricey with all these benefits but you can swarm with them and they hit really really hard. I think they can deal with a lot of stuff including the new Space Wolves.

G



G

Had my first game tonight against mech IG (no air cav though). This is what I used at 1750

HQ

Tervigon Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands

Elites

Zolanthropes (3) Spore pod
Zolanthropes (3) Spore pod
Deahtleaper

Troops

Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Termagaunts (13)

Heavy

Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon


HQ

CCS Plasma w/ Master of the Fleet

Troops

PCS Flamers Chimera
2x infantry auto cannon, plasma
Vets Plasma, Chimera
Vets Melta Chimera
Vets Melta Chimera

Fast

Bane Wolf

Heavy

Demolisher
Manticore
2x LRBT


It was capture & control with pitched battle. He went first. It felt like such a tiny army to start with so much in reserve. I gave my units as much cover as I could. Even so I nearly lost one of my Tervigons on the first turn (it took 4 wounds). Still the Tervigons were very solid. However if he had one of the 3x lascannon skimmers we both agreed that at least one would have died. That would have been very bad as it was baby sitting gaunts on my objective. He ended up taking another 10ish wounds but saved them all either through his armor save, cover or FNP. In this game the adrenal glands definitely paid off and Toxin was useless.

On turn two I was fortunate to get the Death Leaper on the table. Still my units came in piece meal and it didn’t hurt as much as I thought it would. I did loose the first carnifex and zolanthrope squad by the end of the battle but they drew enough fire that my opponent wasn’t able to advance towards my side of the table comfortably. They also drew his forces away from his objective allowing for me to drop the remaining squad of zolanthropes and second carni near his objective. He also did a good job of not leaving any easy targets or places to deep strike.

I liked the carnifexes and I found the bioplasma useful. Both times when they came in they stunned or shook a chimera. The first didn’t survive past his first turn. It took all of his fire to do those four wounds so it is worth noting in this case that a Mawloc or Trygon would have survived with 2 wounds. I’ll have to keep an eye on how often having two extra wounds would make a difference.

The first zolanthrope squad did minor damage to a chimera which was rather unlucky (2 pens then nothing useful on the damage chart). The second squad of zolanthropes trashed one of the chimeras zooming to my objectve and on the next turn immobilized a second one.

The T-fex was OK. Twice it whiffed. It stunned a chimera and the Demolisher. It helped, but not 265 points worth. I need some more games before I’m sold on this one.

The Death Leaper’s +1 to reserves helped a bit. It immobilized the Demolisher, it assaulted a vet squad and I rolled super pathetically on the charge and failed to do anything. It tied them up for another turn at least. I’m left with the feeling I’d rather have a Tyrant if I really want that +1 to reserve rolls.

The gaunts didn’t do much, not that I expected great things from them. I got some side shots on chimeras but nothing came out of it. They did assault some vets later on and tied them up. They did their job of soaking up fire, dying, and holding my objective. Not being str4 was really annoying though with so many vehicles around.

I don’t want to draw too many conclusions after one game. I am tempted to ax the Tyrannofex and Death Leaper to add in a tyrant and three hive guard though.

Edit - this is what I think I'll try next

HQ
Tyrant - Hive Commander, Wings

Elites
3 Zolanthropes, Spore Pod
3 Zolanthropes, Spore Pod
3 Hive Guard

Troops
Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Tervigon Calalyst, Toxin, Adrenal glands
Termagaunts (13)

Heavy
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod
Carnifex Plasma, Spore Pod

I think the primary function of the Death Leaper is to stop enemy Psychic Hoods from blocking your Zoanthropes and prevent Null Zones, Jaws of the World Wolf, etc. You may want to test it in a game against enemy psykers before making your final verdict on that one.

CKO wrote:What exatcly do you accomplish in the tyranid shooting phase?

Your not going to put a serious dent against mech list so I think it is pointless. Assault missle launchers(hive guard) and lascannons with a -1(heavy venom cannons) which only come from elite choices or expensive mcs means that you will not be able to do enough damage. The only shooting weapon you should even consider is the zoanthrope as its just to good to pass up.

Mahu wrote:Thank you Shep. You provide a great insight, I think mine gets clouded by my own personal plans.

I agree on the Heavy Venom cannon, and I think I fell into "internet logic" too quickly on that one. The Stranglehorn doesn't really impress me either though. I think I will run your Hive Tyrant load out in my game this week and see what happens.

I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Unless people are just wanting to diversify their existing force with some fancy new units the same old models from the old codex will still win just as well.

HQ: A bare bones tyrant or 2, heavy venom cannon no body guard.

Elites: Zoanthropes are the best choice here, Deathleaper is nice but not nessissary, he costs a lot of points and isn't a game changer by any means.

Troops: I bring 60 bare bones Genestealers if I can, no upgrades needed. I miss the old death spitter warriors but 8 or so with syth/rending simply running forward works too.

Heavy, Carnifex/ Carnifex/ Carnifex...... Bring the adrenal glands and bio plasma on twin syth Carny's and just run them forward. they are not to pricey at 190 and eat land raiders for breakfast. The plasma cannon shots are a nice bonus as well.

Thats about it..... always close asap and try to hit all at once , mindless, fairly thoughtless fun.

Yes the Carnifex went up a tad in points but I found the decrease in the warriors and Genestealers more than makes up for it, enough to add more Zoe's

The other bells and whistles look nice and where designed to bring in new moneys but its the same bare bones eat them alive strategy that will always prevail for Tyranids.

The trygon/Mawlocks look cool but busting up in your enemies face before the rest of your army is in charge range is a terrible idea, the bigger they are the harder they fall, especially with no support. I do see a lot of potential with drop spores, I bet other competitive lists will stem from the use of those but it will still be the same everything hitting at the same time tactics that will win games.

Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

Aduro wrote:Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

QFT!!! My main army is Ultras, so I definately want Swarmlord in my list. The fluff was just awesome! I am not sure how competitive he will be though.

Gornall wrote:

Aduro wrote:Based on rules and talk, I had little interest in running the Swarmlord. After reading the codex fluff and how he pretty much WTFPWNED Calgar and his Ultramarines, I'm seriously considering trying to work him into my list. All rules aside, I think him and Deathleaper are my two favorite critters based on story and background. Who's yours?

QFT!!! My main army is Ultras, so I definately want Swarmlord in my list. The fluff was just awesome! I am not sure how competitive he will be though.

Competitive is always second hand to your love of the game

I think the major problem with the Venomthrope is that it occupies an Elite slot. If it had been an HQ choice (similar to big mek+KFF) I think it would have been an auto include. Elites are where the majority of our tank busting ability is coming from. Zoanthropes+Deathleaper is IMO the best use of the elite slots.

On the issue of dropping empty spore pods. The entries that talk about the spore pod do not make it clear that units that purchase pods as an upgrade must deploy in them. It even goes as far as saying that they are always treated as a separate non-scoring unit. This leads me to the conclusion that you can indeed drop them empty.

Crushing claws are interesting now. As Shep has discovered they seem like a good upgrade for Tervigons. With the change to Scything Talons it's my opinion that if you can take 2 sets they are very good. However when you can only take a single set then it's time to start looking for another CC biomorph. Furthermore if Boneswords are available they should always be your first choice.

Since the Tervigon can only take 1 set of scything talons, and no boneswords I think crushing claws are optimal here. At worst you'll add only 1 extra attack, however you have the potential to double the attacks this thing puts out.

With the loss of Assault Grenades pinning weapons will hold a very important support role when assaulting into cover. Barbed Strangler, Stranglethorn cannon, and strangleweb are our only pinning weapons. A Tyrant carrying a stranglethorn could prove to be very useful.

Overall my biggest regret for the Codex is Raveners, and Lictors not being able to assault the turn they Deep Strike. At the very least Raveners should haven been assault the turn they arrive through a Trygon Tunnel. This is especially painful as the Blood Angel Codex is going to have at least 1 uber DS assault unit.

I like my swarms and fear for the safety of my little buggers, so one of my first investments is a pair of Venomthropes, even before the Trygons that I want to make Tervigons out of.

I think the first list I'm going to run, based simply on what I currently have, will me a Midzilla + Horde list, sporting an Alpha to lead it, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Deathleaper for my Elites, two each of Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors for my Troops, a brood of Gargoyles for Fast, and a lone T-Fex hoping no one notices him in the back of the swarm. Not run the points yet to see what that comes out to.


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Oh, and I might buy Raveners, but it will be soley to use them as the base for Winged Warriors and the Parasite.

CKO wrote:I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Sadly, Hive Guard can't go in Mycetic Spores.

Aduro wrote:I like my swarms and fear for the safety of my little buggers, so one of my first investments is a pair of Venomthropes, even before the Trygons that I want to make Tervigons out of.

I think the first list I'm going to run, based simply on what I currently have, will me a Midzilla + Horde list, sporting an Alpha to lead it, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Deathleaper for my Elites, two each of Gaunts, Hormagaunts and Warriors for my Troops, a brood of Gargoyles for Fast, and a lone T-Fex hoping no one notices him in the back of the swarm. Not run the points yet to see what that comes out to.

Almost 2000 Points. Depends how you want to arm the Warriors.

Nid Swarm - Total 1965
125 Alpha with Deathspitter, Paired Swords, Toxic, Adrenal, Regen
165 3 Venomthropes
180 3 Zoanthropes
140 Deathleaper
150 30 Termagants
150 30 Termagants
160 20 Toxic Hormagaunts
160 20 Toxic Hormagaunts
175 5 Deathspitter Warriors
175 5 Deathspitter Warriors
120 20 Gargoyles
265 T-Fex

After some good reading here in this thread and others I have thrown together this army list:

1 Hive Tyrant with wings and double talons, +1 to reserves
1 Alphawarrior double talons
1 liktor/deathleaper
3 Zoanthropes
9 Warriors scything talons/ rending claws
13 genestealer with broodlord
12 genestealer with scything talons
20 hormagants
20 hormagants
2x3 dropping spore mines
1 Carnifex with frags

Is around 1750 and is based on already purchased models.

Problem I see there is the lack of montrous creature targets. The two I have will surely be blown away pretty quick by an army with moderate firepower.
Another problem is the lack of anti-tank, but that's pretty a given considering the melee theme of the army.
I think that it's essential to have the +1 to reserve base. Otherwise you have to count on the liktors to come in turn 2 which is nowhere near save.

I will report how the games went!

Greets
Schepp himself

Go for the normal warriors, they have great shooting. Use the points to either get a second broodlord or upgrade to the Y.stealers. they have the ability to assault the turn they come in. Also, try out the parasite, I found him quite useful.

I think you'll have hard time handling vehicles.

Fetterkey wrote:I think the primary function of the Death Leaper is to stop enemy Psychic Hoods from blocking your Zoanthropes and prevent Null Zones, Jaws of the World Wolf, etc. You may want to test it in a game against enemy psykers before making your final verdict on that one.

Yeah I have two regular opponents that have a psychic hood or Rune Priest. Jaws will not be nice against Tervigons.

I have looked through the codex this morning. I will probably go with a hard hitting elite army that can use reserves.

G

Janthkin wrote:

CKO wrote:I came to that conclusion a while back, eventhough I think tyranid shooting may have a different goal then other armies. I believe our shooting is design to stop people from shooting at us with the exception of the zoanthropes. With that in mind, I understand the tyranids shooting phase alot better, I would like for you and shep to consider testing hive guard in spores.

Sadly, Hive Guard can't go in Mycetic Spores.

This is what happens when you order from GW and your local store is sold out of codexes.

They can pop out behind Trygons.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:They can pop out behind Trygons.

G

If you get lucky enough to have the Trygon come in and the Hive Guard NOT. That's lamentably uncommon. The Trygon's tunnel has been reduced to a gimmick (as opposed to the FW version, where you could ensure something followed him, and could assault when it got there).

I think the Trygon tunnel deployment has potential, especially since Mystics don't work against units following the Trygon.

What I am seeing is designing your list to have a multitude of deployment options. It's quite possible and fits in with the background. So far no one has come up with a cookie cutter meta list but that's not a bad thing at all. I firmly believe the new bugs weren't intended to played with lots of spammed units but don't let that stop you from trying to be the first to make it a big go.

G

Trygon tunnel seems to be more of an opportunity option than something to base your pre-game strategies on

Very much agreed with that point. I also think that's no bad thing. It gives an extra element of board control- makes a table edge where before there wasn't one.