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Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

So, what do you give Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs to in your army? Now that their benefits are not omnipresent stat buffs but instead grant Poisoned Attacks and Furious Charge?

Hormagaunts. Toxin Sacs benefit you vs everyone, and are pretty much a no brainer. Adrenals on the other hand only give you much benefit vs Eldar in Combat, as well as letting you glance Armor 10 on the charge. Debating still on if I want to keep Adrenals on mine or just go with 8 pt Toxigaunts.

Gargoyles. Same as Hormagaunts.

Termagaunts. I don't think I'm going to bother with either. They're not really a HtH beast unless supported by bigger critters like their dad, and he'll give them the benefits of his for free anyways.

Tervigons. Both, not really for himself, but to benefit all his kids around him.

Warriors and Raveners. With Str 4, it's starting to get questionable on which upgrades they want. If you give them Toxin Sacs, then they don't really need Str 5 on the charge from the Adrenals, however the extra Int is nice to let you strike before Marines. I could see these benefiting from both, but it's making a pricey fig even more expensive

Alpha Warrior. Adrenals and no Toxin Sacs. At Str 5, the Toxin Sacs are going to start doing more harm than good against most of your targets. The extra Str and Int on the charge will make him a character killer if you can position him right, and with Boneswords he'll WTFPWN everything else.

T-Fex. He really gets no benefit from either the vast majority of the time. Save the points for elsewhere.

Tyrant. No Toxin, his Str is high enough it will only hinder him. Adrenal's will let him strike before characters on the charge, but most won't be able to hurt him much anyways unless they're swinging Fists. I'm going to pass on both.

Mahu, I like the most recent list you posted.

Shep, you really got me thinking about the Stranglethorn. Like it the more I think about it, and I'm gonna give it a try.

Here's the army I'm gonna field in my next game. I played something similar in my last game vs. mech IG and I've made some tweaks. I'm prepping for a tourney at the end of January, so there's still a bit of "what do I have/can I reasonably get done" to this list.

Tyrant - Talons, Stranglethorn, Adrenal glands 200
2 Tyrant Guards 120
3 Hive Guards 150
3 Hive Guards 150
2 Zoeys 120
Tervigon - Toxin, Catalyst 200
10 Termagants 50
9 Genestealers 153
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs 160
20 Hormagaunts - Toxin sacs 160
5 Warriors - Adrenal glands, Deathspitters 200
16 Gargoyles 96
2 Biovores 90

1849 pts

Basic design of the list is to move, shoot, bust transports and then punish what piles out. The Biovores synerge with the Hive Guards, as does the Stranglethorn cannon to a lesser degree. The Hormagaunts let me handle basically anything with a T value. I went with 5 Warriors instead of 4 because I've found at 4 their offensive output drops precipitously with casualities. (FWIW, I think a Warrior death star might be really interesting paired with Venomthropes, but that's another playtest.)

The Gargoyles give me some speed and flexibility, but mostly they're there to serve as a moving cover that shouldn't bog down the rest of the stuff behind it. I'd love to put Old Adversary on the Tyrant, but right now the plan is keeping him cheap, especially given the cost of the ablative wounds (Tyrant Guards).

Again, it's certainly not without its weaknesses (LR spam, I'm looking at you), but I think it's a more old-school approach that shouldn't embarrass me. I'll have my pods and a fuller arsenal built for my *February* tournament, muah-ha-ha.

One interesting variant popped up today when I watched a game. Local player ran the following:

1 Tervigon (HQ)
3x 23 Termagaunts
3x Tervigon (Troops)
1 Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon
1 Trygon Prime
9 Winged Warriors with Scything Talons and Deathspitters

He spawned over 100 additional gaunts and literally swamped the board with bodies. He really does have all the termagaunt models to support this! Based on his testing today, he is replacing the Trygon with an Old Adversary Tyrant to make the little guys even more lethal and replacing the Tyrannofex with 2 Zoeys and 3 Biovores. By the time he finished spawning on turn 3, the Necrons had easily killed over 60 gaunts and he still had enough models on the board to swamp the entire Necron line from flank to flank and tie them up in close combat. Necron player was running Deceiver, Destroyer Lord, at least 30 Warriors, 20 Immortals and 6 Wraiths. Bugs did barely any damage until turn 4, but once all those little guys were in range Necrons went down fast and hard. Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

PanzerLeader wrote:Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

Well, I imagine the first step would be "don't play Necrons."

If you want to stop it, kill the tervigons..

Run Monoliths. Sure, he's got 100 Gaunts on the table, but they're in ten units of ~10. Flux Arcs, which target all units in range, could do a real number on that. Not to mention Particle Whips. And if he takes out the T-Fex, he's got no way of killing them.

Elric of Grans wrote:Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

I think it will primarily be useful for full reserve armies.

One basic question for me is how will the new Nids be played at the competitive level?
Geared towards cc, shooty, or balanced?

Aduro wrote:So, what do you give Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs to in your army? Now that their benefits are not omnipresent stat buffs but instead grant Poisoned Attacks and Furious Charge?

General thought is Toxic Sacs on little Bugs and Adrenal Glands on Big Bugs.

* Hormaguants want Toxic Sacs so they can wound anything. Furious Charge is nice but I think it makes them too expensive. I want the extra bodies in the unit.
* Gargoyles already have Blinding Poison so I would run them naked or with both. The Initiative upgrade and Str 4 vs tanks is nice.
* I would want Toxic Sacs on Genestealers, but I think it may make them too expensive to use.
* Tervigon wants both and I will leave my Termagants naked.
* Trygons benefit from Adrendal Glands Str for hunting Tanks and Initiative to strike before MEQ.
* Hive Tyrants with Implant Attack benefit from Toxic Sacs to get more Instant Death Wounds. Glands help Tank hunting but I doubt I will have the points for the upgrade.
* Primes are more meta dependent. I prefer Toxic Sacs as there are a lot of T5+ opponents.

wuestenfux wrote:One basic question for me is how will the new Nids be played at the competitive level?
Geared towards cc, shooty, or balanced?

I do not think they will do Shooty well. Mostly it will be Melee or Balanced armies.

I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

After some play testing at your lgs, here is a 2k list we all came up with.

First of all, we are very impressed with upgraded hormagants. We were not so impressed with mawloc.

We were impressed with the cheapness of the alpha warrior hq, but we couldn't think of a good way to fit him in yet.

Here is the list:

HQ
2 x Tervigon w/catalyst/toxin/adrenal

Troop
1 x Tervigon w/catalyst/toxin/adrenal
1 x 17 Termagaunts
1 x 30 Hormagants w/toxin/adrenal

Elite
2 x 3 Hive Guard
1 x Death Leaper

Heavy
2 x Tyrranofex w/rupture cannon/regen

I believe this is the list we are going to hammer out vs mech IG, mech SW, mech Marines, other Nids and Orks.

Elric of Grans wrote:Perhaps something of a noob question, but how often do you propose you could conceivably have this opportunity? I thought you had to declare whether something was Deep Striking/Outflanking, which means that only something you planned to come in from your edge would be able to take advantage of the tunnel. What in the list would you ever start in reserve that you would not Deep Strike/Outflank? I could very well be missing something here, but I just cannot see how that could ever be a benefit.

You do have to declare outflanking/deep striking. But I read the Trygon's rules as overriding that previous choice - "Any Tyranid infantry units (excluding those with wings) that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns...." When you Outflank, you are still arriving from Reserves.

The more interesting (to me) question: can a unit intended for deployment via Mycetic Spore change it's mind after the Trygon's tunnel become available? The answer should be no, given vehicle precedents, but GW has been known to do weird things.

Broken Loose wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Still a little at a loss on how to stop this monstrosity.

Well, I imagine the first step would be "don't play Necrons."

Good thing I don't play Necrons. As I said, I watched the game. But thanks for that ever so useful advice.

WarmasterScott wrote:If you want to stop it, kill the tervigons..

I think this is easier said than done. Remember, the Tervigons can give each other FNP if you start targetting them aggressively and will get a FNP save against Krak Missiles in addition to the cover save they get from being behind the wall of gaunts. Maneuvering around them also becomes problematic because after about 2 turns of spawning he has enough gaunts to literally carpet the board from edge to edge. This is not as problematic in Dawn of War or Pitched Battle, but in spearhead when he only has to seal off the 4 foot length to trap it becomes a night mare scenario pretty quick.

Phryxis wrote:I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

This sounds like a proper tactics and hard to take on for any opponent.

PanzerLeader wrote:I think this is easier said than done. Remember, the Tervigons can give each other FNP if you start targetting them aggressively and will get a FNP save against Krak Missiles in addition to the cover save they get from being behind the wall of gaunts. Maneuvering around them also becomes problematic because after about 2 turns of spawning he has enough gaunts to literally carpet the board from edge to edge. This is not as problematic in Dawn of War or Pitched Battle, but in spearhead when he only has to seal off the 4 foot length to trap it becomes a night mare scenario pretty quick.

No way Tervigons should be getting cover from Gaunts. And were they remembering the "runs out on any roll of doubles"? More often than not, a Tervigon will only get one spawning.

wuestenfux wrote:

Phryxis wrote:I know I'm not alone on this, but to me what jumps out ridiculously big are the Tervigons.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

The Venomthrope can hide behind the Tervigon and give everyone cover. The Fexes can pair up to screen the Tervigon. The whole thing can plod across the board and hold objectives. If you give it shooty Fexes, it can sit on your objective. If you give it CC Fexes, it can go take his objective.

You could throw in a Zoanthrope or two, and totally screen them until they're in range.

You can omit the Venomthrope if you want to keep them on your objective, and just find a place with good cover for it.

All in all, tho, the Troops Tervigon with Regen strikes me as being a ridiculously good deal, and in a Codex where costing is all over the place, you need to find the steals (Tervigon), in order to fund the overcosted crap that you still probably want (Fexes).

This sounds like a proper tactics and hard to take on for any opponent.

Jaws of the World Wolf. The trick is going to be in keeping rhino-mounted Rune Priests from closing within 24", or in making sure they will be covered by Shadow in the Warp.

Janthkin wrote:
No way Tervigons should be getting cover from Gaunts. And were they remembering the "runs out on any roll of doubles"? More often than not, a Tervigon will only get one spawning.

Unfortunately, the local stores interpretation is "shooting through a unit gives cover regardless of size." So here, the Gaunts are generally sufficient to give a Tervigon cover though I'm working on getting that changed. And he played the spawning rules correctly, but with four Tervigons on the board and only a ~42% chance of doubles per spawning, he seems to be averaging 6-7 additional broods per game at a minimum as normally only one or two blow out turn one.

The local store should read the rules for Monstrous Creatures getting cover then, because they need 50%+ of the model obscured, and if its borderline then its Cv5+.

What's the most cost effective troops choice for the new Nids? And in what # will you take them?

It depends on how the gaunts are modeled. If they are hunched over then no way are they going to provide 50 percent obscurement, but if they are modeled leaping up then it's quite feasible.

G

Janthkin wrote:You do have to declare outflanking/deep striking. But I read the Trygon's rules as overriding that previous choice - "Any Tyranid infantry units (excluding those with wings) that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns...." When you Outflank, you are still arriving from Reserves.

If it can be played like that... yes, I can definitely see how it could prove useful. Hmm... I may have to see how people here like that interpretation.

Consider a blob of models consisting of:
- Tervigon (Catalyst, Adren, Toxin, Regen)
- 20-ish Gants
- 2x Fex (Any loadout you like)
- Venomthrope

How much does that cost again? It's about half of a 1500 point army and considering its speed and weaponry it doesn't strike me as particularly awe-inspiring.

As far as the Tervigon being a 'ridiculously good deal' goes, well, I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to. Afterall we're talking about a slow 200 point model that has one short range heavy bolter as weaponry. Sure it buffs units around it in many ways but fact remains that people who take more than two Tervigons in smaller battles (under 1.75K) run the risk of not having enough models in the army that can cause any actual damage to the enemy.

Don't get me wrong I like the Tervigon too, but calling it a ridiculously good deal might be a bit of a stretch.

Tervigons are a very strong support unit but don't pack much of an offensive punch. I think there's definitely a risk of taking too many and thus losing your focus on stuff that actually kills the enemy and wins the game.

Yes but I don't think you hit that critical mass beyond 4+. A list could quite easily fit 2-3 in without losing killyness.

Something just occurred to me (no, I don't have the Codex yet so someone needs to fact-check this for me): Do the units produced by a Tervigon count as units for the purposes of kill-points?

Of course.

They count as if you had purchased them from the Troops entry with no upgrades of any kind.

Utility in 2/3 missions is good, but being a positive liability in kill-point missions might slow people's ardour for them.

That's one of the nice things though, you don't HAVE to make the Gaunts. They won't be as big of an asset, but they'll still be buffing your Gaunts and giving things FNP. If you need some extra firepower or CC power, poop some out then.

I'm going to be testing the following list in the next few days.

Hive Tyrant
Old Adversary, 1xDevourers, LW+BS, 2+ Coversave

2x3 Hive Guard

2xTervigon w/Crushing Claws, Adrenal, Poison, Catalyst (the FnP one)

2x19 Termagaunts

2 Carnifex w/Crushing Claws, 1xDevourers

2xCarnifex w/Dual Scythes, Bio-Plasma, Spore Pods

Basically the idea being that the bulk of the force moves up like a giant nasty hammer and slowly roll toward the bad men while Hive Guard give cover and open up transports for everyone to eat. The Podding Carnies are there to threaten rear areas or eat units that are way off from center mass (i.e. the split deployment). Even a Tervigon becomes dangerous re-rolling hits w/crushing claws (average of 5 attacks w/around 4 hits).

I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm considering dropping the carnies for either 2 trygons or 2 mawlocs that start on the board but I'm not really sure yet. I do so love my Carnies and I think they have a place in a list like this.