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Based on my experience fighting the new Nids, which is limited, I admit, you're going to have a HUGE problem dealing with mobile opponents. Your Hive Guard won't last that long, even with Tervigon FNP, and they're the only real ranged anti tank in your list. Everything else is turtle slow and psychic hoods will be having a pretty easy time shutting your Tervigons/Hive Tyrant down.

I think that for new competitive Nids, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofexes are going to be a pick 2 out of 3 for any real list.

Aduro:

That's the thing, the Termagant and Hormagaunt units that the Tervigons will be synergizing with, if they aren't producing any on their own, seem to be ridiculously tiny under the assumption that the Tervigons will make up the difference.

Plus sourclams' point about Tervigons being shut down by anti-psychic wargear makes even their ability to synergize with Termagant units doubtful. Not every opponent will be Orks, Chaos, or Necrons.

There's new and thus very shiny and sparkly, but I think people are going to catch onto the lack of production model very quickly: they're a highly situational unit, but having more than one or two is going to handicap you in most situations.

How mobile are we talking sourclams? The reason I'm asking is that truly heavily mobile armies don't normally have the firepower on the move to knock out that many wounds. Eldar mobile armies just don't have the shots to take out the HG and Speeders for SM's aren't going to want to come play tag with all the devourers.

It's a list that will hurt in KP missions if they knock out the HG but in objective missions it's just plain nasty since I can sit on several objectives and be very, very hard to dislodge

@Nurglitch

The synergy isn't psychic. The gaunts get the big daddies special abilities no matter what. The only thing that can be shut down is FnP which while that will suck isn't a game loser.

Though I probably won't ever field more than 2 in a list.

Well, I'm predominantly a mech guard player. Yesterday I went against a Nid list that had 3 Hive Guard and 2 Tyrannofexes. By the end of turn 2 all the Hive Guard and one Fex were dead, and the other Fex had 2 wounds left and was hiding behind a building for much of the remainder of the game.

Shutting down his anti tank like that allowed me to simply run my chimera wall around the table, flaming, plasma-ing, and melta-ing at will, and although the little bugs could glance me, they were hugely vulnerable to hull heavy flamers against massed infantry.

I imagine that playing against your list would go similarly, except that you have even less anti tank, and to be effective your Fexes have to fall out of the sky within 12" of my Chims. If I can put 8 AP1-2 wounds on T6, they're just meat.

I think your list will crush a Battle Force army, but against someone who's meched up and playing competitively, it's just too slow to get where it needs to before your opponent has shot it to pieces or taken the initiative assaulting.

sourclams wrote:Yes but I don't think you hit that critical mass beyond 4+. A list could quite easily fit 2-3 in without losing killyness.

I would not take Tervigons in the HQ slot, so that allows for two to three, depending on your Troops selections.

If the Alpha Warrior could take wings, I think he'd be a much more desirable HQ option, but as is there's really no significant value that leaps out at me from the HQ choices available. I have no problem filling HQ choices with Tervigons.

Hive Tyrants cost a crap load of points, and Alpha Warriors are too slow to go with Hormagaunts.

It's not so much the other HQ options as it is the Tervigon, really. Non-scoring Tervigons don't seem like they're worth their points to me.

The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices. I think the scariest list my Marines would face would be something like;

Tyrant Venom Cannon
Tyrant Guard

3x3 Hive Guard

Tervigon
10 x Terms
A lot of hormagants w/ poison

Trygons

Whatever other toys you can fit in.



Of course, the first thing I would shoot to death would be the Hive Guard...then I would drive around the table. Shooting 9 T6, 2 wound guys won't exactly be easy. Except for Guard....but to hell with that codex .

Hive Guard are nice, but I think people are a little obsessed with their anti-transport abilities. If you want anti-vehicle people then go for Venom Cannons on squads of Warriors, leaving your Elites more open to the useful options in it.

Or consider interdicting vehicles with Spore Mines, or Raveners, or Gargoyles or something. Heck, consider a brood or two of two Carnifexes with whatever the big Venom Cannons are called.

The real challenge of the new Tyranids seems to be cramming everything you want into a single army...

Nurglitch wrote:Hive Guard are nice, but I think people are a little obsessed with their anti-transport abilities. If you want anti-vehicle people then go for Venom Cannons on squads of Warriors, leaving your Elites more open to the useful options in it.

Or consider interdicting vehicles with Spore Mines, or Raveners, or Gargoyles or something. Heck, consider a brood or two of two Carnifexes with whatever the big Venom Cannons are called.

The real challenge of the new Tyranids seems to be cramming everything you want into a single army...

Err....

Warriors have Str. 6 VC that are -1 on the chart dude and only get 1 per brood. A fex with HVC is almost 200 points...and it's a blast that scatters.

AgeOfEgos wrote:The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices.

I agree with you, mostly. The Elite slot definitely seems to be consumed with finding relatively cheap anti-tank, whether it's the Hive Guard or Zoeys. Other options, like Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers are nice-but-not-necessary, whereas ranged anti tank most definitely is.

And then there's Death Leaper, who's also Elite, and the only thing in the whole codex that can act as reliable anti-psyker outside of 12"...

I'm willing to guess that competitive list elite slots will look like this:

Death Leaper, 2x3 Hive Guard
Death Leaper, 3 Hive Guard, Zoanthropes
Death Leaper, 2x3 Zoanthropes

I think you can play around with combinations of Hive Tyrants and Harpies with HVC, and Tyrannofexes are solid, but they can't hope to stop a modern mech list without backup ranged AT, and for the Nids, that's all sunk into the Elites.

AgeofEgos:

Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

More importantly by relegating this task to Warriors, you leave your Elite slots open to something besides Hive Guard. That's not to say that a unit might not come in handy, but just that filling up your Elites with them really limits what your army can do. Where are your Venomthropes, your Zoanthropes, your Lictors, your Ymgarly Genestealers, and so on?

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

PanzerLeader wrote:Unfortunately, the local stores interpretation is "shooting through a unit gives cover regardless of size." So here, the Gaunts are generally sufficient to give a Tervigon cover though I'm working on getting that changed. And he played the spawning rules correctly, but with four Tervigons on the board and only a ~42% chance of doubles per spawning, he seems to be averaging 6-7 additional broods per game at a minimum as normally only one or two blow out turn one.

So your store makes up their own rules. Interesting.

I wonder what other broken stuff they have. It would make playing 40k there easily abusable.

Nurglitch wrote:Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

I don't know by what metric a S6 weapon that rolls -1 on the vehicle damage table is "pretty good". They're BS3, meaning that a direct hit on a rhino-sized chassis will happen something like 40% of the time, they'll get a glance 1/6 of the time, and they'll roll sufficient to stun the vehicle 1/6 of the time. That's about 2% of the time to stun versus AV12 and 3% to stun/immobilize versus AV11 including all glancing and penetrating hits. Keeping the Warriors at 3 models with just toxin/adrenal glands and the venom cannon is going to run ~140 points, nearly the cost of 3x Hive Guard with 6 S8 shots at BS4. If you're going to rely on this in any capacity, I grieve for the bugs.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

It's more about getting people out of their transports so that you can eat their units when you get there. If your Hormagaunt wave is charging into a stunned rhino wall, you're just setting yourself up to get gunned down or flamed to death. It's even worse against IG or Eldar with predominantly AV12. You don't want to waste your Carnifex putting 3 penetrating hits on a Rhino.

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

Options for consistent ranged AT:

Hive Tyrant with HVC: 200+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Harpy with HVC: 170+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Carnifex with HVC: 185+ points, BS3, S9, -1 on VDT
Hive Guard: 50-150 points, BS4, 2 shots S8
Zoanthropes: 60-180 points, BS4, S10 AP1 Lance
Tyrannofex: 245+ points, BS3, 2 shots S10

I think it's pretty clear where the cheapest, most reliable AT is concentrated.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

Is it still an Assault 2 weapon? Because if so then you'll be better off glancing a vehicle with a brood of Warriors than penetrating it with a brood of Hive Guard. S6 is pretty good against Rhinos, and other AV10-12 vehicles, if you can get enough shots in.

That seems to be the thing about Tyranid shooting, particularly in regards to vehicles: it's about stalling and immobilising vehicles in order to pick them off at leisure (or when you get there!).

More importantly by relegating this task to Warriors, you leave your Elite slots open to something besides Hive Guard. That's not to say that a unit might not come in handy, but just that filling up your Elites with them really limits what your army can do. Where are your Venomthropes, your Zoanthropes, your Lictors, your Ymgarly Genestealers, and so on?

Far be it from me to stand in the way of the one or two cookie-cutter lists that get brainstormed in threads such as these, but wouldn't it be something better to maybe explore the Codex a little more before settling into the usual One True Spam-List mode yet again?

Sourclams already addressed quite effectively...but I'll just add that 140ish point S6 blast that is -1 on vehicle damage chart is terribad against vehicles dude. It actually stuns me someone would suggest that against Chimera/Rhino walls. And if you rely on HTH gants to blow up rhinos, you've already lost.

I'm not sure what the cookie cutter list comment meant.....are you mad that armies eventually morph into a few power builds...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The main issue I see with Nids right now is the elite slot. You'll need 3 slots of Hive Guard to deal with armor I think....and that removes a lot of cool choices.

I agree with you, mostly. The Elite slot definitely seems to be consumed with finding relatively cheap anti-tank, whether it's the Hive Guard or Zoeys. Other options, like Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers are nice-but-not-necessary, whereas ranged anti tank most definitely is.

And then there's Death Leaper, who's also Elite, and the only thing in the whole codex that can act as reliable anti-psyker outside of 12"...

I'm willing to guess that competitive list elite slots will look like this:

Death Leaper, 2x3 Hive Guard
Death Leaper, 3 Hive Guard, Zoanthropes
Death Leaper, 2x3 Zoanthropes

I think you can play around with combinations of Hive Tyrants and Harpies with HVC, and Tyrannofexes are solid, but they can't hope to stop a modern mech list without backup ranged AT, and for the Nids, that's all sunk into the Elites.

Agreed. Bad thing about Zoans is you need a Leaper to dumb down libbys or you're screwed. Wolves still won't care though with their super staffs of denial. He's strong though against leadership dependent armies...

I'm not sold on Harpies with VC yet but maybe Nids will be forced to buy them. 200 points for a Str. 9 -1 blast on a T5 4 wound platform...eh. Still, he has mobility. Dunno yet.

sourclams:

I think you're misreading what I'm saying. I'm not claiming Warrior Venom Cannons are primary anti-tank. I'm claiming them as 'get-you-by' anti-vehicle. Weapons S5-7 are anti-vehicle in my book (unless they have some rule like Lance or Melta or something so they can affected AV14).

All they have to do is Stun or Shake transports, or possibly Immobilise. So the primary anti-tank, the monstrous creatures like the Trygon and the Carnifex can get there and mulch them easily in combat. Use the swarms to make escaping from the wreckage more difficult and your job is half-way there - even the Deathleaper can be used more creatively to make Terminators escaping an exploding Land Raider more likely to be pinned.

After all, a Carnifex with a Heavy Venom Cannon and Scything Talons (or Crushing Claws) isn't going to sacrifice that much power and the ability to interdict mechanized units will go some considerable distance to ameliorating its lack of speed. Not to mention the added defense against Assault Cannon toting Land Speeders and Pirahnas, and the odd Vendetta. It doesn't need any help prying open tanks, but it does need help defending itself against light gunboats and catching transports.

Freeing up those Elite spots for stuff like Lictors and Zoanthropes for actual anti-tank work seems like a good idea because a S10 Lance shot will be a better anti-tank proposition than the S8 gun that the Hive Guard has. Likewise having Lictors on the field and helping to bring Zoanthropes in via Mycetic Spores seems better to me than plinking away at the armoured castle while your Tervigons and Termagants do...what? Presumably mob the contents of those transports once they get opened.

But it seems me that proposing S8 non-melta non-lance weapons as primary anti-tank would rightly be stupid if it were found in any other list. THose weapons are anti-tank in a pinch, but generally they're anti-vehicle and the list has other places for anti-vehicle weaponry.

Re: Deathleaper - I think he's still a must-take against Wolves just to shut down JotWW. LD7-8 psychic tests are nothing to be optimistic about.

Nurglitch, Lictors only work if they're on the board, so even if they arrive on turn 2, the spore pods that they're helping are still delayed at least til turn 3. That's generally not enough time to stop the transports before they've dropped their payload. Even the 6 wound bugs, with the possible exception of the Trygon [prime] are going to lose to dedicated assault units and hidden power fists.

The little bugs are good. Real good. Steroid Gaunts will obliterate even MCs in close combat, and much the same for Termagants and Gargs. But they need to get the charge to make best use of adrenal/poison. If they're trying to glance rhinos to death they're hugely vulnerable to being assaulted. MCs are in a similar boat; almost every unit on the board these days is carrying some sort of S7+ anti tank gun. If you've got 3 MCs trying to plod forward to bust rhinos, they're going to get shot dead before they get there, or right after they get there when they're also vulnerable to being assaulted.

Transports have to be dead before the wave gets there. Aside from the Tyrannofex, the reliable AT is all in the Elite slots. You can use HVCs on 170-200 point MCs to try to open them up, but then you're limiting yourself tactically by taking a multipurpose unit and shoehorning it into doing that one single thing for the majority of the game.

I wish Deathleaper was Fast Attack and Zoeys were Heavies. I think that'd open up a lot of options for Venomthropes and Ymgarl Stealers. But they're not, so the Elite Slots are pretty much reserved for the only units in the codex that can serve reliably in the ranged AT capacity.

sourclams wrote:I think he's still a must-take against Wolves just to shut down JotWW. LD7-8 psychic tests are nothing to be optimistic about.

Well right, I'm with you there. I was just pointing out that players that take Leaper + Zoans counting on nullifying hood tests....will be let down when they find themselves playing Wolves/Eldar. Due to that (and psy/hood tests in general), I don't consider Zoans reliable AT.

AgeofEgos:

I see you missed the point about how shifting some light anti-vehicle weapons to Troops frees up Elites for real anti-tank capability, but given your use of the term "terribad" I can see how we might have difficulty communicating. See the post above where I address sourclams' point.

For summary:

Anti-tank: Zoanthropes, Carnifex in close combat, Trygon, Tyrannofex, etc.

Anti-vehicle: Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifex in shooting, Lictors and Genestealers in close combat, Raveners in shooting and close combat, etc.

Anti-infantry: Tyranid Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Carnifex in shooting, etc.

About the cookie-cutter comment: I don't get mad that eventually a few cookie-cutter lists dominate certain people's perception of what constitutes an effective army. It's just annoying to have that narrow strategic vision as the received wisdom when the game lends itself so well to radical experimentation. I mean it's nice that you think each army list only has one or two optimal configurations, but that's moreso a reflection of the paucity of your strategic acumen than any reflection of the actual diversity to be found in army lists, and its a pity to have that paucity strangle discussions of non-obvious strategies.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

I see you missed the point about how shifting some light anti-vehicle weapons to Troops frees up Elites for real anti-tank capability, but given your use of the term "terribad" I can see how we might have difficulty communicating. See the post above where I address sourclams' point.

For summary:

Anti-tank: Zoanthropes, Carnifex in close combat, Trygon, Tyrannofex, etc.

Anti-vehicle: Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifex in shooting, Lictors and Genestealers in close combat, Raveners in shooting and close combat, etc.

Anti-infantry: Tyranid Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts, Carnifex in shooting, etc.

About the cookie-cutter comment: I don't get mad that eventually a few cookie-cutter lists dominate certain people's perception of what constitutes an effective army. It's just annoying to have that narrow strategic vision as the received wisdom when the game lends itself so well to radical experimentation. I mean it's nice that you think each army list only has one or two optimal configurations, but that's moreso a reflection of the paucity of your strategic acumen than any reflection of the actual diversity to be found in army lists, and its a pity to have that paucity strangle discussions of non-obvious strategies.

Terribad is from the Lonely Island group, lighten up Francis .

I've seen nothing in your reply to Sourclams that addresses the issues your suggestions face. If you are stating that Zoans are superior to Hive Guard....I'm not sure they are for the reasons Clams and I were discussing. They are fragile, more expensive than Hive Guard, rely on psy tests, must beat psy defense....then need to roll to hit/damage.

As for your last comment, there are always elite lists present in every army. Vulkan lists are popular for a reason, he force multiplies everything good in the SM codex.

Nurglitch I agree with what you have said. Nidz are not going to win many games versus mech armies if they sit back and trade shots across the table. It's too bad the venom cannon was changed into a blast weapon as sourclams has pointed out that really cuts down on it's effectiveness versus armor, so much to the point I think it's not worth taking anymore. What Nidz can now do is play the reserve game and come in on top of the enemy line by outflanking, infiltrating, tunneling and deep striking. It's all about saturating the immediate area with so many units that the mech player cannot gun them all down. You can now play Nidz a lot like daemons and I think it's the best option, it's definitely a lot more aggressive than rolling around with blobs of termigaunts.

Let's look at a sample list designed to be played completely held in reserve:

Flyrant
2x Trygon
2x genestealer brood (infiltrating/outflanking)
hormigaunts (outflanking)
Deathleaper
2x 2x Zoanthrope/Mycetic spore

First you are denying your opponent one turn of shooting, possibly two if you can go second. This list has nine units and six should arrive on the second turn due to the +1 for reserves from the Flyrant. I don't play mech IG so it's hard for me to say whether this army has enough firepower to slag six of these Tyranid units with one turn of shooting. Maybe sourclams could offer his opinion, I'm sure he would know. At least two of the remaining three units should come in on the third turn.

G

AgeofEgos:

My point is that these things need to be determined on the table rather than beforehand on paper. That's why most people like the Vulkan list, because it looks good on paper, nevermind that that it can be shut down easily because it needs to close with the enemy to optimize effectiveness, and being that close to the enemy without Combat Tactics makes them vulnerable to close combat. It's popular with people on the internet, but its weak from a point of actual tactics on the table that are difficult to see without models onto a table in front of you.

Similarly my point is that Zoanthropes are anti-tank, whereas Hive Guard are anti-vehicle, and that while anti-vehicle can be found elsewhere in the list, that is not the case with Zoanthrope's anti-tank capability. Yeah, maybe they are weaker in direct comparison, but situated in an actual arm trying to engage and defeat a mechanized opponent using all three Elite slots for Hive Guard, rather than mixing them up with the other Elite options makes for a one-dimensional and easily defeated army (not to mention lousy anti-tank!).

Green Blow Fly:

Actually, if a Heavy Venom Cannon is a Blast weapon then that's actually a good thing, given a Carnifices BS3. 4+ to hit isn't great, but an average of 3" deviation is, particularly if someone is trying to castle up their vehicles to deny shots to their side armour. Certainly better against vehicles with stupidly large footprints like a Land Raider. Plus it gives it dual-utility as an anti-infantry weapon.

Neat list though. That's what I'm talking about with thinking of alternates to some One True Spam-List. Diverse, yet different units back each other up as well as supporting each other.

It's going to need to pick a flank though, so exchanging a Trygon for a Mawloc might be a nice damper on people's inclination to castle so that they have flanks.

@GBF

How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

Coming in with that list only allows someone to defeat it in detail. On average you are going to get to throw 3-4 units close to your opponent. The other 2-3 may not get to start close enough.

How do you think those 3-4 units are going to stand up to the firepower of a 2k mech list?

If you plan on playing like that (which I am) then the +1 reserves for the tyrant is a must have. All units coming in on 4+ on turn 2 is too great a risk for getting ripped apart piecemeal. 3+ is far better, and with a fully reserved force you can overwhelm them in pretty short order.

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's too bad the venom cannon was changed into a blast weapon as sourclams has pointed out that really cuts down on it's effectiveness versus armor, so much to the point I think it's not worth taking anymore.

Why? Statistically the accuracy of a BS3 blast template is about 50% against a Rhino.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

My point is that these things need to be determined on the table rather than beforehand on paper. That's why most people like the Vulkan list, because it looks good on paper, nevermind that that it can be shut down easily because it needs to close with the enemy to optimize effectiveness, and being that close to the enemy without Combat Tactics makes them vulnerable to close combat. It's popular with people on the internet, but its weak from a point of actual tactics on the table that are difficult to see without models onto a table in front of you.

lol, I played Vulkan lists for quite some time before I got bored with it. I'm going to paint now.

Someone whining about spam.....in a Tyranid army? WTF is 100 gaunts considered? Spam is what Tyranids do it's their thing.

Really don't blame players for spamming units, poor codex design is at fault. All our (decent) ranged tank killing power comes from 2 units in 1 FOC slot. The meta game demands ranged anti-tank to be competitive. Which I consider to be S10 weapons. That's Zoans and Tyranofex, and yea get ready for a lot of them showing up in lists.

The glance/stun vehicles until the CC support catches them is not going to work. Your CC unit will finally pop open the vehicle and whatever was riding inside it will decimate you next turn.

To be successful with 5th edition Tyranids you need to pop vehicles at range and charge/shoot whatever was riding inside. I think we will quickly find 2x3 zoans+deathleaper, and 1-3 tyranofex the norm for competitive nids.

imweasel wrote:@GBF

How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

True, though it has the potential to shake up a lot of vehicles. Potentially 26 shots at S6, and 20-30 shots at Str 5, usually with the ability to go after side or rear armor. Plus the Zoanthropes to deal with any heavier tanks. Will it take out an army by itself? No, of course not - but softening it up and shaking/stunning things long enough to close the following round, is quite possible.

I think a lot of people are underestimating our ability to take out vehicles in assault. True, I agree that CC being the only way to kill vehicles is a big mistake and the best ranged AT stuff is in Elites (with Tyrannofex backup), but we have some fast, tear-em up CC stuff we can work with.

Flyrant with dual-talons: It's fast, it rerolls all hits, and every hit is a str. 6 meltagun vs. the rear. Even Land Raiders have cause to worry if they didn't move over 6". It's certainly fast enough to do the job.

Trygon: Not quite as fast as the Flyrant, but more attacks makes up for that and it still retains fleet in order to catch up to vehicles.

Harpies: At least it's a "cheap" TL Heavy Venom Cannon (not that those weapons are ever cheap), but it's still a Str. 5 flying MC with Scything Talons. Not something to toss against the heaviest tank in the biz, but if you're not attacking something at cruising speed, it's almost as good as the Flyrant at this role for about 60 points less. Str. 5+2d6 is still threatening vs. rear armor. Also, the fact that the Venom Cannons can potentially stun/immobilize a vehicle before you charge in gives a good one-two punch.

Deathleaper: Threatens "sit-back and shoot" vehicles extremely well. It's "super night-fight" rule means the opponent has to roll above-average just to shoot at the thing if you place it right and several S6 attacks on rear armor is painful. Deadly Rending means 5's even auto-pen AV 11 Russes. It's ability to show up anywhere certainly makes up for it's slower movement then fliers and it's got fleet besides.

Raveners: The least desirable choices of this list, each Ravener is basically 2 charging Genestealers (after throwing S.Talons into the equation) that actually have the speed to get to the rear armor of things. Very poor for assaulting transports and the like, and don't bother if the enemy rear armor exceeds 10, but a brood of 4 gives 20 attacks. That's about 11 hits on a mid-moving vehicle (after S.Talons) which equates to about 2 pens, which isn't shabby for a fairly modest 140pts.

Would I solely rely on close combat to get the job done vs. vehicles? Of course not. But given the things that can actually chase down and destroy vehicles, they can clean up any messes that Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Tyrannofexes leave behind. Another example of the synergistic nature of the army, I suppose.

{Rant}

imweasel wrote:
How exactly are you going to kill 5+ transports and other assorted vehicles?

There is actually quite a bit of shooting in that list that can put a dent in most vehicles' side armor. All you need to do is immobilize say 2-3 so you can charge them the next turn. It's feasible. The Tyrant and Trygons can lay down around 18 S6 shots plus you've got the Zoies that should destroy 1-2 vehicles.

Genestealers no longer have flesh hooks. Assaulting into terrain is hard for them to deal with.

What if I run a squad of 20 genestealers with a Broodlord? I don't think there is any unit take can stand up to that kind of assault and even if they are in cover they'd probably be quite lucky to kill 10 genestealers.... And it's not like everybody is standing in a cluster of bushes, seriously.

I don't think there is anything in that list that can assault the turn it comes in.

Have you read the codex? The genestealers and hormigaunts can all outflank so it's quite possible they can charge the same turn they arrive from reserve. Give the hormigaunts adrenal glands so that can glance vehicles in close combat. The genestealers can infiltrate and fleet... That's a very powerful combination.

Coming in with that list only allows someone to defeat it in detail. On average you are going to get to throw 3-4 units close to your opponent. The other 2-3 may not get to start close enough.

Having played daemons since the release of that codex I can honestly say based upon my gaming experience that's simply not true.

How do you think those 3-4 units are going to stand up to the firepower of a 2k mech list?

Go back and read what I have said above.
{/Rant}

G