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Trygons have S5 shooting

I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

Then, they are one more threat the enemy has to deal with. With stealth they are rocking 3+ cover saves, presuming you put them in cover, and they have move through cover, fleet, assault grenades, hit and run and really good CC abilities at I6 if they don't get shot apart. They are no joke at all.

I think Lictors will find a home in competative list's Elite sections.

I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

Indeed, Lictors in broods of 3 can be a serious threat.
One downside is that they cannot charge upon arrival.
But a good cover save and multiple wounds eventually help
them to survive one round of shooting.

Aduro wrote:I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

A flying Hive Tyrant, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors in a Drop Pod and the Parasite of Mortrex can all deep strike.

Gaunts and genestealers can also use the mycetic spore to deepstrike but I think it's better if you can outflank these units.

G

Anyone considered the combo of two Tervigons, Old Commander Tyrant, a couple of Venomthroes and a swarm of super gaunts?

The two tervigons FNP each other & get a 5+ cover save, the gaunts get the same cover save and the 2+ save Hive Tyrant gets a 4+ cover from hiding behind the Tervigons. Everything has preferred enemy!

Excellently durable potent CC core, great way to protect/move up the +1 reserve Tyrant and should work well with the rest of the list coming in from reserves by various means.

Yes/no?

I'm just finishing painting three Pyrovores I started converting from Warriors as soon as I saw the models and fluff, and I intend to try and get use from them outside of the inevitable Apocalypse formation with Hellstorm template/some such. (I suspect that Apoc is where we'll see the Elites other than Guard/Zoey/Leaper making most of their appearances...)

Current thoughts are to drop them in a Spod in the middle of the enemy army and suicide them at a HW squad or something. I know that anti-infantry is a poor use of a potential Zoey/Guard/Leaper slot in an army where most everything can stomp infantry and my Biovores can do the same thing without getting popped by melta next turn, but I like them

40kenthusiast wrote:I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

6 shots at BS3, and don't forget that Flesh Hooks (if I'm remembering this correctly; pretty sure I am) are AP-. They basically amount to a single assault cannon with -1 on the table. I don't think this is very good return at all for ~180-ish points. Add to that they're flame-bait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pryokon wrote: But given the things that can actually chase down and destroy vehicles, they can clean up any messes that Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Tyrannofexes leave behind. Another example of the synergistic nature of the army, I suppose.

Yes but you're admitting that you rely on some combination of Guard/Zoeys/TFexes to serve as your primary anti tank, meaning your elite slots are basically filled. I don't deny that a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant is okay at crushing vehicles, but you really can't have 200+ point bugs running around chasing rhinos Benny-Hill style.

GBF wrote:What if I run a squad of 20 genestealers with a Broodlord? I don't think there is any unit take can stand up to that kind of assault and even if they are in cover they'd probably be quite lucky to kill 10 genestealers.... And it's not like everybody is standing in a cluster of bushes, seriously.

This unit is bordering on 350-ish points, isn't it? Not saying it's impossible to make work, but I'd rather have Hormagaunts. 30 Gaunts on Roids should actually kill more than the Stealers, in or out of cover, for fewer points.

DarkHound wrote:Why? Statistically the accuracy of a BS3 blast template is about 50% against a Rhino.

It's a little less than that, actually. A 3+ scatter will put you off a rhino's center, so you need to roll 5 or below on 2d6. That puts it at about 40% to hit.

Im building a Small list to help the local Nids players get exited about their new codex, since im putting together a bunch of models they can borrow i was also running a few games, here are a few units i thought were all stars. I think people really forget about em, but i -love- raveners they can deepstrike if needed, get em on the other side of the table, either IN or Behind cover, have 3 wounds each, a high WS, a high volume of attacks, can have rending and reroll 1's or reroll all in CC, and are beasts, enabling em to move, run, and assualt 12 (love fleet on beasties) i ran four in my second game, and ate 2 Tau Pirahana and one devilfish (all three had Flachette sooooo it did hurt) but i can't wait until i can sic em on a unit of Troops, Not saying they will down Assualt Termies, or even Vangaurd vets with ease, just saying they are a solid unit.

Also i think some people might be underestimateing the power of a Shooting Tyrant and shooting Carnifex, put heavy venom cannons on em, and shoot away, i killed almost an entire nob squad with the Tyrant with one. It is prettty nasty, Plus people still remember assualting them can be scary (Speacially the HT)

And yeah, im really impressed with Genestealers so far, specailly with a brood lord it just gets -nasty-


i am -not- however impressed with reserve running, i havn't had to much luck with my reserves, tend to get shot to death before i get into CC, but then again i don't have alot of models to field yet. i also Miss without Number, and i looooooove lictors, they rock, deathleaper too.


Though i haven't really "won" a game yet, im still working on it, the codex is new ganna take time to figure out points per unit, most effective and deployments

sourclams wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:I think folks are underestimating the Lictors.

A unit of 3 would be under 200 points, much like the other good elite slots. On the round they arrive they've got 6 shots at s6, rending, which ought to put a penetrating hit or two on a light vehicle.

6 shots at BS3, and don't forget that Flesh Hooks (if I'm remembering this correctly; pretty sure I am) are AP-. They basically amount to a single assault cannon with -1 on the table. I don't think this is very good return at all for ~180-ish points. Add to that they're flame-bait.

6 rending S6 shots...
Rend changes it to AP2, 6 shots, 3 hits, 50% average chance to get a rend. I'll take it

Ah, fair point on the Rending rule. Still that's only 1 rending hit every 2 turns. Terrible return on the investment, and suffers from limitations on placement.

sourclams wrote:Ah, fair point on the Rending rule. Still that's only 1 rending hit every 2 turns. Terrible return on the investment, and suffers from limitations on placement.

the key is not using them as anti tank, but using them for their "locator beacons" to deep strike other units in.

(Mawloc, Shrikes, Gargoyles, Rippers, Spods, Trygon, etc)

I gotta ask, what "limitations on placement" do lictors suffer from? They are like Marbo, you can put them anywhere.

This is how I see them working. A common situation is that the enemy has a shooting element and a countercharging element. The Lictors come in near the shooting element, sharing their cover (ie, standing on the rock the bassie squad is hiding behind) and shoot some nice vehicle. Then it's the enemies turn. It's quite the dilemma.

They want to kill the Lictors, because it's fail if they get to move + fleet + charge next round, you'll lose vehicles A (s6 rending with ones rerolled for scything talons will shred anything with armor 10 or 11 in the back) or they'll get into a squad and start the hit and run nonsense. But shooting the Lictors is harder than it appears. They've got a total of 9 wounds, and ld 10, so you sort of have to kill them all, but if you shoot your lascannons or missile launchers (which can ID them, and are the best way to finish them) that's lascannns and missile launchers that aren't shooting at the approaching MC brick. If you shoot bolters or what have you at them it'll take a lot to get it done, and flamers have to deal with the fact that there are few models in the unit per wounds. Obviously a unit of burnas will sort em out, but most armies lack the easy doom flamer approach needed.

Ordinarily with a unit like this you just assault them, but even that isn't quite so easy. i6, ws 6, 9 attacks, reroll 1's, s6, rending, will thin out the squad, and if the power fist rolls average they'll hold, hit and run and be up on something. Even if you do kill them, that's your counterattack unit out of position to go after the MC's.

I'm not saying they are the best thing in the book, just that they deserve close inspection.

The key to them is that you place them anywhere. It's not like Ymgari, where you have to pick before the game, you just put them where they need to go and try to pen a vehicle. Heck, if they come in late you can just drop em in near an objective that the enemy doesn't have fully circled, and pray.

Redemption wrote:

Aduro wrote:I wonder if a "Stealth Recon/Shock Troop" list would do any good. Take two units of three Lictors, Deathleaper, Outflanking Genestealers, Deepstriking Gargoyles and Spore Mines, Trygons. The only problem is an HQ choice, as it's the only thing that can't really Deepstrike or Outflank.

A flying Hive Tyrant, a Tyranid Prime joined to a unit of Warriors in a Drop Pod and the Parasite of Mortrex can all deep strike.

The Parasite! Perfect, he can join the Deepstriking Gargoyles!

40kE has hit it on the head. I have been underwelmed with the Bug codex as a whole, but the Lictors intrigue me. They are one of the better units in the book and probably the unit I would fear the most when playing against them.

Things like Lictors, Heavy Devs, Spods.. yes alone they are sub-par anti-tank but combined and averaged out you should be able to get some decent numbers..

I mean when you have a Assault 6 str6 6" drop-spod weapon, Aint bad!

One lictor is all you need and the Death Leaper is the best. As expensive as things are it's a waste of points to take more than one. I am taking the Death Leaper so he can assassinate Sly Marbo every time I play against IG.

G

Like others in this thread, I'm finding it difficult to deal with AV14/Land Raiders. I think that there is enough midrange anti-vehicle fiepower to keep most light armor in check, but AV14 is very difficult to keep under control and deal with. I'm messing with something like this right now:

Hive Tyrant: Old Aversary, Armored Shell, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Stranglethorn Cannon

3x Zoanthropes

2x Zoanthropes

Deathleaper

Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Tervigon: Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

14x Termagants

13x Termagants

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon

1750

I really don't like the Tyrannofexes at all, I feel like they are WAY too many points. However, that long range weapon at str10 is so important that it is very hard to leave them out. I considered podding in Fexes but that doesn't solve the issue with the Land Raiders (though 2-3 of them coming in together can be quite good against meched up gunlines). Originally, I wanted to pod in my Zoanthropes and such, but even with the +1 I feel like it can go badly for me. Also with the Tyrannofexes in there I feel like it might be worthwhile to swap over to Hive Guard. With FNP and/or cover they're quite resilient to ML fire and don't suffer against Runic Weapons like SW do. It might be worthwhile to run one unit of each (Zoies and HG) in conjuction with Deathleaper. I'm unsure if I really like the double Tervigon yet or not. It is a very strong core to the army with the Tyrant there too, but Jaws annihilates them and they can hit me with it before I can put them in the shadow. I can do some damage to 1 Jaws with Deathleaper but he will only really be a major influence on that 1/3 of the time, and then decent 1/2 of the time, and more or less whatever the other 1/3 of the time.

At the moment I feel like my list is too predictable. I really like how ready and able the new Tyranid codex is for applying pressure from all over the place through different deployment options and I feel like that it very strong. I just can't really find a balance between units to reserve/outflank/DS and units to start on the table that I'm really comfortable with.

One thing that has been in my mind also is to not worry so much about the Land Raider, and instead try as hard as possible to prevent it from setting its charge up without having to tangle with the supergants that protect my core of big beasties. Anything that could come out of the LR can get eaten alive by a bunch of angry, poisoned, counterattacking gants. Maybe this comes down to the way I saturate the table with gants and the spacing between them and the MCs, though I have a feeling that if they're trying to set the charge up and I can't hinder the LR, they're going to get it.

I really like the feel of the new Bugs though, and I'm very excited about giving them a good run through the next couple of years.

Green Blow Fly wrote:One lictor is all you need and the Death Leaper is the best. As expensive as things are it's a waste of points to take more than one. I am taking the Death Leaper so he can assassinate Sly Marbo every time I play against IG.

G

Interesting. I have found 3 Lictors to be superior to the Deathleaper. I am not enamored with the DL's leadership reducing ability for 140pts. It has been more productive to take 3 Lictors instead for 195pts. The DL can be taken out by one tactical squad while the 9 wounds from the Lictor brood survive. I have not found it terrible to have psychic hoods on the table. The Zopes are leadership 10 and the Libby is leadership 10. The zopes have a better chance of winning the hood roll than the Libby and the Libby has to win 3 times in a row. It has never happened yet against me.

The Lictors have been powerful behind the enemy lines. Guard tanks have been out of position, the enemy shuffles around, but can never get rid of all 3. The disruption they cause helps the other elements get into the enemy lines. I can't see the DL ever doing that. He is so much easier to drop.

I am curious as to how the terrofex?? has been performing for people in games at almost 300 points for one with regeneration it is a tough call.

There are some armies where the Deathleaper will sill shine in close combat such as IG. Other armies such as say Black Templars he can fubar Rites of Battle and run distraction.

I now see what people are saying by taking three Lictors in one unit, it makes a lot more sense! It seems like a pretty good idea if you want to spend that many points. The combined shooting is nice but it means you would have to move into assault range.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:There are some armies where the Deathleaper will sill shine in close combat such as IG. Other armies such as say Black Templars he can fubar Rites of Battle and run distraction.

I now see what people are saying by taking three Lictors in one unit, it makes a lot more sense! It seems like a pretty good idea if you want to spend that many points. The combined shooting is nice but it means you would have to move into assault range.

G

By that token though (with Lictors/Deathleaper being able to handle things like IG in combat that is) you wouldn't hesitate much to drop those 3 Lictors right behind a Chimera and open fire on its rear armor provided you're reasonably sure your 195pt unit won't be wiped in the folloing turn. I'd have no real problem revealing Lictors next to a unit or two of IG if it meant they should take Fleshhook shots at the rear armor of a tank like a Leman Russ or artillery piece. Your opponent then has to deal with them or they will start eating tanks and soldiers alike. Against things like Marines they feel a lot more underwhelming though, and at T4 if they don't appear in terrain they have absolutely no protection from Krak Missiles. This makes them pretty difficult to find solid placement for as they need to be up close and personal to use their Fleshhooks and get the right charges, but in getting close like that they are often times going to be at least partially exposed to brutal str8+ firepower.

I keep wanting to take Lictors. I'm just struggling to see how they can be placed in areas that they can apply real meaningful pressure (ie be a threat and not be killed easily in the following shooting phase).

Deathleaper is a mixed bag for me. I love him in theory, but he won't always be very good even against things he should be great against (dropping LD10 to LD9 is very underwhelming... dropping it to 8 or 7 is a beating though).

Also has anyone considered the Broodlord's Aura of Despair as a stackable LD modifier to help defend against Hoods and Psykers? It states blatantly in the book that the effects stack from multiple Broodlords. The issue is that they're pretty damn expensive to take and Genestealers are not really good at receiving punishment. Having 2-3 AoDs stacked onto the enemy army can be pretty significant in all areas from morale checks to psychic checks. If you can stack them successfully too, you can then utilize some of the Tyrant's psychic powers to pretty brutal effect (Psychic Scream and The Horror). It is very expensive to put on the table points wise, which is a real limiting factor, but it is some food for thought.

I'm with Darth on Deathleaper. I fully admit this is Theoryhammer on my part since I haven't fielded it, but I just can't swallow spending 140 just to give my Zoeys a boost against hoods that haven't really shut them down to this point anyway. All my psykers are Ld10...I'm just gonna keep rolling with that. I wasn't really enamored with Lictors, but I think Darth got me interested in giving them a try with my ever-evolving reserve build.

Similarly, while the Tyrannofex is clearly the best ranged option for dealing with Land Raiders, I personally can't justify spending almost a sixth of an army's points on one. I'm not allergic to throwing points into something if it comes with the right payoff. But 250-300 makes me sneeze and break out. That may be a metagame thing, as I'm far more likely to face Rhinos and Chimeras than GK LR spam. And that army I posted earlier -- while seemingly soft, very light on MCs and heavier on small bugs than most lists people are posting -- is actually doing just fine cracking transports and killing passengers. Yes, LRs are a problem...but I'd rather try to "general" my way around them than short myself in other areas.

I think Mahu has spoken pretty eloquently on the strength of the codex to be its unconventional deployment options, and I tend to agree that the real strength of the codex will eventually be found there. Once I'm done prepping for my January tourney, I'm gonna devote all my time to reserve and hybrid armies.

It's not just giving the Zoeys a boost, it's also the only real psychic defense that the codex has got.

Similarly, the argument against Lictors isn't that they're not good, just that they're not good enough to avoid taking either Zoeys or Hive Guard.

But in a third of your games, that extra psychic defense is -1 Ld. For 140 pts. That just doesn't add up for me.

And I agree regarding Elites slots, although I think Elites slots tend to free up in reserve-heavy lists since they tend to leave HG behind.

I've been following this thread closely and have a couple of thoughts:


Like GBF, I think an "in-your-face" reserve list ala demons might be the best bet. The problem is trying to make sure they don't come in piecemeal. I was thinking that maybe stacking a Hive Tyrant with Swarmlord might be a useful (if expensive combo) as they use different rules to modify the reserve roll, making it stack. Further, Swarmlord allows you to reroll outflanking rolls which could help. Probably prohibitively expensive, but it's an idea I've been bouncing around.

Like most people in here, my biggest concern with the Nids is that most of their anti-tank is all in the elites slot, along with some other choices like Deathleaper/Lictors and Venomthropes (something a unit that could provide even more oomph to the Gaunt farm). Personally, I've been debating taking a unit a Zoeys in pod, a HG unit, Deathleaper, and a Tyranofex. Couple this with some deep-striking Trygons/Screamer-killers in pods and I think I would have anti-tank covered. However, I am curious to hear what people consider is enough Nid anti-tank.

A final thing I'm wondering is do Raveners/Gargoyles have places in a competitive Nid List? Same with Troop warriors? Can they be made to work?

I wish I didn't have to wait 30 days for the AB datafile, makes messing around with different list builds and options to spend points on a lot easier.

I think Gargoyles most definitely have a place, especially in the Tervigon/Tyrannofex lists where they can be given FNP and provide a cover screen for all the MCs.

Gargoyles and winged warriors are something I think could work together really well offensively.

I like troop warriors a lot in combination with a Tyranid Prime and Mycetic Spore as well. They can threaten almost anything and with the Spore can play havoc to the enemy backfield. With Deathspitters they can dish out some shooting hurt the turn they land (either on infantry or str5 vs rear armor 10, with 4-5 heavy bolter-equivilent weapons you can do damage to that) and the Prime is very frightening with Lash Whip and Bonesword.