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Ixquic wrote:I can expect that rule to start creeping out to new creatures because otherwise they would have left the rule as it was previously.

You can also look in the Bretonnian book and see that they already have it as a Vow.

Granted, if the step-up rule is in place, who strikes first doesn't matter all that much really (except in challenges)

Initiative order striking doesn't really matter if how many models killed doesn't affect the number of models striking back.

Unless my unit is dead before it has attacked...and we don't even know the rules for step-up yet, it might not be all the of the attacks of the second rank, it might just be 1.

Any way you look at it, Beastmen are fethed on this rule.

Platuan4th wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I can expect that rule to start creeping out to new creatures because otherwise they would have left the rule as it was previously.

You can also look in the Bretonnian book and see that they already have it as a Vow.

There's a big difference between a gimmick hero that has to spend a large amount of points and have no magical weapons to get a special ability and that ability being standard in the core rulebook for non hero models that won't get squashed if they don't roll that killing blow against a large target.

Think about it this way. In 6th edition ASF wasn't a rulebook rule but something that had to be written out in the entry for certain models. In 7th they made it a standard rule. Look at how ridiculously propagated that became where entire armies had it. I'm not saying that there are going to be legions of killing blow dragons but I doubt they have are going to write this up just for the Manticore.

Karon wrote:Granted, if the step-up rule is in place, who strikes first doesn't matter all that much really (except in challenges)

Initiative order striking doesn't really matter if how many models killed doesn't affect the number of models striking back.

Unless my unit is dead before it has attacked...and we don't even know the rules for step-up yet, it might not be all the of the attacks of the second rank, it might just be 1.

Any way you look at it, Beastmen are fethed on this rule.

I'm wondering how they are going to make Boar Boys with their 3+ armor save, relatively high points cost and I2 useful. It gives me the impression that there is something we don't know yet since whats the point of fancy new models if they literally will die to most everything before getting to attack?

Ixquic wrote:I'm wondering how they are going to make Boar Boys with their 3+ armor save, relatively high points cost and I2 useful. It gives me the impression that there is something we don't know yet since whats the point of fancy new models if they literally will die to most everything before getting to attack?

Furious Charge or the Waaagh! rule.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I'm wondering how they are going to make Boar Boys with their 3+ armor save, relatively high points cost and I2 useful. It gives me the impression that there is something we don't know yet since whats the point of fancy new models if they literally will die to most everything before getting to attack?

Furious Charge or the Waaagh! rule.

I'm hoping it's something standard for all units or cavalry since I don't want them just to fix Orcs but all medium cavalry. Tomb Kings cav would be even worse than before and that's really impressive since they are currently the worst unit in the game.

Well, switching to Init order for CC may mean other changes we don't know about yet. Waaaagh! rule for Orcs. Some kind of bonus for Undead like... raising new troops easier to just tarpit or win out with sheer numbers. Some extra bonus for Empire using complimentary units together.

Scottywan82 wrote:Well, switching to Init order for CC may mean other changes we don't know about yet. Waaaagh! rule for Orcs. Some kind of bonus for Undead like... raising new troops easier to just tarpit or win out with sheer numbers. Some extra bonus for Empire using complimentary units together.

I'm hoping it's more along the lines of "Mounted spears/lances confer a +4 initiative bonus on the turn they charge" or something. If it's up to army books to balance it out certain armies will be screwed for the four years it takes for GW to even get close to completing a cycle.

I'm betting with 528 pages to spare... they'll have something to fix things in the BRB

Nah

just reams of sawnky piccies of terrain covered with masses of minis

K, I really doubt there will be magic items lying on the ground for your soldiers to pick up and go "o hey this looks pretty powerful and will probably turn the tide" I mean I could understand picking up a fallen champions weapon but not armor cause ur not going to change in the middle of a fething battle.
on the KB thing it seems fair, I mean my bolt throwers could kill the manticore b4 it could kill my dragon. just as long as it isn't spamed the point of monsters is that there hard to kill.

Overall, I find a few things rather off.

The "Ranom Charge Distance" rule would seem to just remove any tactics fanasy had.

The terrain rules would be nice for a scenario, but not for normal games, again just too random.

skyth wrote:Granted, if the step-up rule is in place, who strikes first doesn't matter all that much really (except in challenges)

For many close-combat reliant armies, it lowers the number of attacks from halved to thirds (Gors w/ two Hand Weapons, Savage Orcs w/ two Hand Weapons). That's bad for a lot of armies, as not every army is a Chaos Warrior / Elf wherein their combat specialists are WS5 or better. Furthermore, it tips combat res caused by wounds / wound denial to be much harder. When you're playing an army that has to chose between either causing wounds or avoiding them (or, worse, is forced into a single role), this becomes much worse.

40K this works as you'll see stuff like 30 Orks v 10 Chaos Marines. In WHFB, with the numbers the same (30 Orcs, 10 Chaos Warriors), the attacks are more akin to 5-12 (depending on if "Fight in two Ranks" remains) Orcs v 5-10 Chaos Warriors (see prior). Chaos Marines may be halved, but Orks are (nearly) third-fraction to sixth'd in attackers. 40K gives those with numerical superiority greater benefits than WHFB.

As for the Boar Boyz example: At least they can be made WS4, are T4, and given a 3+ save. Wolf Riders are pretty much worthless as Fast Cav now, you either take them as Faster-than-normal medium cavalry, or take Spider Riders for your fast cav (as they at least are getting an I4 poisoned attack to counter-act the I2 of the Goblin). A 5+ save, T3, WS2, I2 cavalry unit isn't going to do anything even if it slams someone on the Flank, barring something like a unit of Empire Spearmen.

I was going with the rumor that the ones that step up get thier full allotment of attacks.

Doesn't really matter, anyways, my 12 Gors w/ AHW and musician are as good as useless now :/

Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

50 temple guard rawr

patrickparker1224 wrote:Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

Wow 18"?? I hate to see what happens when the Orc and Goblins or Beatmen's main unit with general panics. Pretty much game over at that point unless the general still confers that ability even when he's running (which is doubtful). Also Great weapons are pretty much done if they aren't on an elf. I assume they are losing the strike last rule and just going to initiative but stuff like Empire Greatsword or Graveguard will never get to attack due to low armor from a two handed weapon and facing two to three ranks worth of attacks.

Still hoping we'll see full rules in a few week which ties this all together...

If all units within 12" of the general are immune to panic then why would you worry about the general panicking?

To me all this sounds just perfect to start a gobbo army... starded last week

patrickparker1224 wrote:Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

Awesome! Can't wait to hear more.

Kirasu wrote:If all units within 12" of the general are immune to panic then why would you worry about the general panicking?

Whoops I meant break not panic with the general's unit. Will the 18" panic checks happen when a unit is broken and run down in combat like now? He's not going to panic from fire or other units breaking but he can probably still be forced to take break checks.

I guess realistically at that point if your general and 30 man orc unit are dead it's already over but it's something to think about.

patrickparker1224 wrote:Im not sure if this was posted yet, but the managers received a sheet of some definite rules changes when they were in Vegas. My local store manager was nice enough to show it to me.

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50.
Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears.
Great weapons are still 1 rank.
If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches.
BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic.
They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge.

Not sure if these have been posted but just thought i should share.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

My beloved beastmen....dead...my bestigors...even more useless.

QQ

Really? All we learned was random charge distance and more guys = better.

If you think random charge distance is better, there is no helping you...

skyth wrote:If you think random charge distance is better, there is no helping you...

Alert! Contextual reading failure.

More guys = better as in "the more guys you have in your unit, the better it is".

There are now infinite rank bonus' and some type of modifier or bonus for having over 50 models or unit strength of 50. This rule I can't see much a problem with, because being large enough to get +6 for Ranks (at least 35 big) has its own drawbacks. The only thing I can think bad about this is it makes Screaming Bell / Plague Furnace Skaven Armies very easy to get stuff like +7 or +8 to Combat Res through ranks alone.

Swords fight in 2 ranks, 3 ranks with spears. This rule is not good for low initiative armies. For those who keep thinking "Oh you're just overplaying it": No, I'm not. It might be true if it was Rank & File v Rank & File, but you never see that any more (unless the "Rank & File" are things like Longbeards or Chaos Warriors, which defeat the point anyways). A lot of this ties back to initiative order, which is pretty bad for many armies. BTW, five dollars says - come 9th Edition WHFB - that GW will introduce an "Excite new rule" to WHFB wherein chargers go first again.

Great weapons are still 1 rank. If true, this is pretty much a "Goodbye" to their use. You already sacrifice any striking before the enemy (Strike Last) and your armor save (-2 from if you took HW&S, -1 if you took Spear & Shield), now you're also missing out on some 50-66% of your possible attacks? Greatswords are pretty much the only Great Weapon users who'll still be viable after this development.

If a large unit panics, ie. 30 Orcs, they panic all smaller units within 18 inches. Well, this is going to be fun for low leadership armies. Are you ready to watch entire beastmen formations (as I have an odd hunch they're going to be called "Formations" and not "Regiments" in the next edition) rush off the table due to their 50-50 chance of failure leadership?

BUT if your general is withing 12 inches you are immune to panic. So Orcs lost one of their few advantages of being able to ignore some of the panics inflicted, with not only other armies having it but a superior version to boot? Super. Glad to see Leadership's about to become as much a joke in WHFB as it is in WH40K.

They are also going to a Lords of the Ring style charge. I don't think I've seen anyone who's in favor of this, barring a few Dakkaites who insist that the game requires "More randomness for more fun". Which is funny, as it's about as fun watching your regiment be charged by some Chaos Knights 25" away (the 3D6+M rumor for cavalry) as it is watching your general and his unit be unable to charge an exposed flank 5.5" away that you spent the entire game setting up, because you rolled a 1 for your charge distance.

Good thing I got Orcs in LotR and 40K to tie me up if WHFB does turn out a stinking turd. GW forgot that the choice "New edition = buy new army to have fun" is not alone, shared with "I have two other game systems" and "Guess I'll try finding a mate's place / non-GW hobby shop to game at."

PS: "Have fun" =/= "Win every game", but "Has a chance to win at least one in ten games against random armies without requiring the blessing of the dice gods". When your army's only use in a new edition is cramming in meat-shields for your allies' armies, the fun tends to sap away.

And to think all I wanted was a tweaking of rules and some way to make infantry able to stand up to a cav charge.

Instead we get more rules changes than the conversion of 40k 2nd ed to 3rd ed.

The rumours just seem to cripple whole swathes of units from almost every army book (WEs would be a noteable exception thus far) and some armies (O&G I'm looking at you) will go from downright frustrating to unplayable.

I have updated the first post. (edit; though Avian has already said all of the red stuff is probably wrong)

It looks better on warseer as the colours were green and orange to help the colour blind people. Here lime green turns into an unreadable blue, and orange into red.

So sorry to all the colour blind people here. The main thing is that the new rumours are not white. (hopefully).

Random charge is better than the current system that has reliability and therefore the use of tactics and skill to work out what can and can't be done?

This is how I feel about random charge distances....



PLEASE.
I roll enough d6 in this game already.

What I really want to know is how the 7th edition books are going to fit into all this. Regardless of how you like or dislike the changes, they are pretty dramatic. I don't see how the points value, magic items and special rules from older books are going to work at all. A Ravening Hordes style reboot would make sense but we are being told consistently that it's not happening.

It's very mysterious.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Random charge is better than the current system that has reliability and therefore the use of tactics and skill to work out what can and can't be done?

This is how I feel about random charge distances....

PLEASE.
I roll enough d6 in this game already.

Yeah random charges is the worst idea ever.