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Flashman wrote:These terrain "events" hark back to the very first days of Warhammer when going through a wood (or near one?) saw your models being attacked by Satyrs. Ironically, the designers poked fun at this in the 25th Anniversary issue of WD. Maybe the idea grew on them...

I dont think my hydra is to concerned about satyrs....

Actually he would probably enjoy the snack...

ShivanAngel wrote:

Flashman wrote:These terrain "events" hark back to the very first days of Warhammer when going through a wood (or near one?) saw your models being attacked by Satyrs. Ironically, the designers poked fun at this in the 25th Anniversary issue of WD. Maybe the idea grew on them...

I dont think my hydra is to concerned about satyrs....

Actually he would probably enjoy the snack...

Obviously the Satyrs are on fire and giving indigestion.

The terrain rules are the ones that - regardless of army I play - I find the most trouble in. Initiative is more of a gripe because I play one of the four-or-so armies that have low Initiative and need the "Chargers go first" bonus, but Terrain makes little sense to me overall. Er, the "Terrain is all dangerous" and "You need 5-10 pieces of it on the board" bit makes little sense, not the "What are these round bases with trees on them?" variety of little sense.

Percentages, funnily enough, are one of the changes I'm meh over. I can see both sides of the argument, and - while I feel for Tomb Kings - it is one of the more effective ways to block stuff like Sorc Lord, 2 Scorc Lvl 2's, and a Exalted BSB in a 2K point game.

EDIT: Well, besides the whole "Your magic can hurt you much more readily now" bit.

Huh?
anything to do with woods and satyrs?

Looking at these rumors, I am getting the feeling that I might not be joining people in the new edition.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Looking at these rumors, I am getting the feeling that I might not be joining people in the new edition.

Looking at these rumors i doubt half of them are true...

New editions are meant to supplement and fix things that are broken with the old edition. Why would suddenly, after 7 editions, they change the game entirely.

Dunno. Ask 3rd edition 40K.

It really sounds like they are trying to iron out the imbalances by making the game as random as possible. I have to admit on some level I kinda dig that since it will always be a crazy new experience. However how much fun will losing or winning be if much of what happened was totally outside your control.

Seems to me if these current rumors are true there is no reason for Fantasy tournies. I know I'm not going to pay for a ticket to something where crazy random stuff determines if I win rather than skill. Whether that is good or not I guess is up to if you like that aspect of the hobby. While the tourney scene now is pretty much a mess of super borken lists, at least they do what you want them to.

Scottywan82 wrote:Dunno. Ask 3rd edition 40K.

Or 6th ed Fantasy.

Ixquic wrote:It really sounds like they are trying to iron out the imbalances by making the game as random as possible. I have to admit on some level I kinda dig that since it will always be a crazy new experience. However how much fun will losing or winning be if much of what happened was totally outside your control.

Seems to me if these current rumors are true there is no reason for Fantasy tournies. I know I'm not going to pay for a ticket to something where crazy random stuff determines if I win rather than skill. Whether that is good or not I guess is up to if you like that aspect of the hobby. While the tourney scene now is pretty much a mess of super borken lists, at least they do what you want them to.

If there that much randomness being introduced I can imagine there are likely to be magic and magic items which will help to reduce the amount of randomness in the game. Adding a greater amount of chance into the game could help to balance it, but it would be a bit strange to add so much uncertainty without also adding some measure of control. This would allow skill to be a major factor in the game still.

Ok, I confirmed with my source, cavalry will be 6 wide (not the 5 wide I remembered). Hand weapons fight 2 deep, spears 3 deep. Ogre sized creatures get a rampage attack (specifics unknown). There is something about 50 strong. There will be percentages for composition. Killing blow will be for models your size or smaller, so ogres can KB other ogres. That is all I got.

@Surtur
Can you ask if the models in the second rank get their full quota of attacks, or if they only get to make one attack each?

Cavalry need to be 6 wide to do what?

From what was said, it was indicated as full attacks.

And 6 wide for rank.

EDIT: Forgot, rank bonuses are unlimited.

In other words, to be able to get a rank bonus for their cavalry, people would now have to buy three boxes of five models instead of two. And all the five-wide movements trays people have now will become useless.

They can shove it up their bums, just like all the rumored terrain shenanigans. I am not planning to play even a single game with these rules if they are true.

Hmm.. I'll need to ask around (again) on unlimited rank bonuses, from what I was told they are not changing.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Looking at these rumors, I am getting the feeling that I might not be joining people in the new edition.

Really? I am quite looking forward to it. IMO the current style of Fantasy is played out and the codexes unbalanced to the point it is unplayable. A new edition might fix both in one go.

Again I am really excited. I am hoping for something new but I am also hoping that the vets will stick around as well.

TBD wrote:In other words, to be able to get a rank bonus for their cavalry, people would now have to buy three boxes of five models instead of two.

And all the five-wide movements trays people have now will become useless.

Duh. You didn't think 8E was going to push people to buy more models?

The movement tray is only 100mm. That's 5-wide for 20mm bases, but only 4-wide for Cav/Orks.

Surtur wrote:Ok, I confirmed with my source, cavalry will be 6 wide (not the 5 wide I remembered). Hand weapons fight 2 deep, spears 3 deep. Ogre sized creatures get a rampage attack (specifics unknown). There is something about 50 strong. There will be percentages for composition. Killing blow will be for models your size or smaller, so ogres can KB other ogres. That is all I got.

I really can't wait for my 40+ point models to start getting 1 shot.

Or my Giant to get killing blowed by a Manticore.


Yeah, that sounds like a horrendously terrible design decision.

PanamaG wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Looking at these rumors, I am getting the feeling that I might not be joining people in the new edition.

Really? I am quite looking forward to it. IMO the current style of Fantasy is played out and the codexes unbalanced to the point it is unplayable. A new edition might fix both in one go.

Again I am really excited. I am hoping for something new but I am also hoping that the vets will stick around as well.

I myself am fully prepared to continue playing 7th edition should 8th edition prove fully unsatisfactory and/or suspiciously like a rough version of 40k. I find 7th to be a lot of fun, though I also practice a lot of self-control in my army building and am not a huge tournament player. In fact, one of the better results of 8th might just be that we players finally take our issues with 7th and just create our own 7.5th edition. Honestly there is very little stopping us.

But aye, we'll see what 8th actually brings.

- Salvage

How many occasions do monsters with killing blow actually get to fight another monster?

Must be pretty rare I would think, and that's before they roll the killing blow itself.

It doesn't matter how rare it is. Even if it only happens once in a while it still results in a huge points swing based on one dice roll that you have no control over as the defender. So if there's a flying monster with KB, there is no chance you can avoid it with a non flying monster so every game you'll have to cross your fingers and hope the attacker doesn't roll a 6 on one dice or your 200 point model is gone. In the case of the Manticore it even has hatred so the luck element of hitting on no better than 3+ is gone. That's stupid and takes strategy entirely out. You can say you can bunker up and hope to avoid it but at that point the other guy is running around capturing objectives, picking off stranglers, etc so it's still a disadvantage.

It's like the Tzeench level 6 spell. Sure it's not going to roll 11 or 12 on every cast, but it'll happen often enough that you have a severe threat that often times can't be stopped and it's down to you hoping your opponent rolls bad since there's no defense since your toughness, armor save, ward and wounds are all irrelevant. When it's a 24" range with almost no targeting restrictions you can't even get away. That sort of crazy random stuff is rarely fun and often result in people just "resetting" the game and starting over.

Also do you think that they are going to write a rule like that and not take advantage of it? I am sure that if they make a rule that models of X base size can use an ability they will be given that ability regardless of if they currently don't have it. Otherwise what would be the point?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The movement tray is only 100mm. That's 5-wide for 20mm bases, but only 4-wide for Cav/Orks.

Funny, my movement trays are 125mm for my Cav and Orcs...

Boss_Salvage wrote:

PanamaG wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Looking at these rumors, I am getting the feeling that I might not be joining people in the new edition.

Really? I am quite looking forward to it. IMO the current style of Fantasy is played out and the codexes unbalanced to the point it is unplayable. A new edition might fix both in one go.

Again I am really excited. I am hoping for something new but I am also hoping that the vets will stick around as well.

I myself am fully prepared to continue playing 7th edition should 8th edition prove fully unsatisfactory and/or suspiciously like a rough version of 40k. I find 7th to be a lot of fun, though I also practice a lot of self-control in my army building and am not a huge tournament player. In fact, one of the better results of 8th might just be that we players finally take our issues with 7th and just create our own 7.5th edition. Honestly there is very little stopping us.

But aye, we'll see what 8th actually brings.

- Salvage

This^
If you don't like 8th, don't play it.
From these changes I think i will be joining you Salvage.
But I will give 8th a go rather than: OMG ITS ALL DIFFERENT SELL ALL MAI WHFB NOW

@Ixquic

I'm pretty sure the rule is being made so you can't KB creatures bigger than you. Not to give all monsters KB against each other. It's another balancer for OK's that will help bring them back into the fold of playability. Like solidifying they're ranks into a new system.

I like the new KB rule, balances the game out somewhat, makes it so a little man can't cut a giants head off (terribly unrealistic)

Can't wait for 8th, I just hope some of the more terrible rumors are just that: rumors.

But really, the only two rumors I worry about is the variable charge distance, which just might ruin the competitive aspect of this game, and striking in init. order ala 40k. Both of those will destroy my beastmen army, I REQUIRE the charge with my units, or I lose. It really is that simple.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I myself am fully prepared to continue playing 7th edition should 8th edition prove fully unsatisfactory and/or suspiciously like a rough version of 40k. I find 7th to be a lot of fun, though I also practice a lot of self-control in my army building and am not a huge tournament player. In fact, one of the better results of 8th might just be that we players finally take our issues with 7th and just create our own 7.5th edition. Honestly there is very little stopping us.

But aye, we'll see what 8th actually brings.

- Salvage

I am thinking the same. I plan to pick up whatever starter they come out with, and give the game a shot.
But I quit buying army books awhile back now, and do not want to continue that cycle into a new edition.

This sounds like the edition to get me into fantasy, now just need to convince the others in my group, that or be content driving 4 hours in one direction to get my game on

Pretty much had my store's blackshirt confirm that Initiative Order is going to be the rule of the day in 8th Edition.

As for the people going "If you dislike 8th Edition, don't play it": That works, so long as you can get a game in outside a GW hobby shop. Otherwise, you're stuck with the "Take it or leave it" approach as GW's - barring a few - are pretty adamant about the whole "We only let you play things that are currently on our shelves or that our Staff members specifically concocted for today" thing. Sure, you can play in the back corner and hope no-body catches you with your 7th Edition Rulebook, but even so you're only two catches away before they give you the "Conform or boot" option.

Initiative Order is a big penalty to several armies, more than some players realize. It's hard to properly explain why, but it is a notable threat to many lists. O&G and Beastmen, for instance, have the problem that - without striking first - they're losing much of their steam that's needed to win combat: Beastmen and Orcs - Orcs especially - rely on the bonus' they receive on the charge to properly defeat an enemy. Armies that are low-initiative but rely on one-round breaks are going to be hit the hardest here.

I at least have a way to counter this: O&G can drop the Orcs, load up on NG's with Fanatics, and then get chock full of War Machines to make up for their losses in hand-to-hand. This doesn't apply as well to the Beastmen, who have much less shooting potential than O&G as well as less counter-measures to the enemy getting up in their face when they don't want them to.

In Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition, Orcs and Goblins are a shooty army first and foremost How the editions change...

Granted, if the step-up rule is in place, who strikes first doesn't matter all that much really (except in challenges)

To me, it's a symptom of a greater change...The general lessening of skill required. It's intended to increase the fun by letting more dice being rolled by more players.

Random charge distance - Doesn't matter all that much if charging doesn't matter.

Initiative order striking doesn't really matter if how many models killed doesn't affect the number of models striking back.

The rules changes also seem to be designed to do everything they can to discourage small units/monsters. Currently small units/monsters work by getting the charge and killing enough on the charge that no one attacks back.

I think the actual effect will be shooting dominating the game more so than it currently does.

Hulksmash wrote:@Ixquic

I'm pretty sure the rule is being made so you can't KB creatures bigger than you. Not to give all monsters KB against each other. It's another balancer for OK's that will help bring them back into the fold of playability. Like solidifying they're ranks into a new system.

Basically my point is that if they are specifically writing in a rule for what happens when monsters have killing blow and how it has a new effect to kill things bigger than US2, I can expect that rule to start creeping out to new creatures because otherwise they would have left the rule as it was previously. I don't see how this helps Ogres at all. If an ogre had killing blow he could have used it against most models in the game in 7th edition. The only benefit they gain is that they can killing blow and be killing blowed by other ogre sized models which is really just breaking even. Additionally they have to worry about monsters with it as well now when before they were one of the few armies immune to killing blow which was a rare bonus they had.