Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Killkrazy wrote:Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.

That's true....but the Federation hasn't shown it has the ability to scale up to the level necessary to destroy a planet. Just because they can build a 64 megaton anti-matter warhead. The example given is humanity right now. We've begun to develop antimatter technology, and we can create some antimatter. That doesn't mean we can create massive anti matter bombs. And even if they COULD build a planet destroying bomb....would it be a practical military weapon? Once again, we can look at current humanity. We can build 50~100 megaton nukes like Tsar Bomba, but those weapons are NOT practical. It's not just a simple matter of scaling up.

What do you mean by a practical military weapon? Large bombs are not practical as a weapon for us because we can get better results from large numbers of smaller bombs.

The Federation, not constrained by technology or resources, can build as many weapons as it wants. The fact that it doesn't want to at the moment doesn't demonstrate an inability to do so.

For one thing, the latest film shows that Federation mining companies have the capability to destroy a planet with a couple of hours of drilling.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.

Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM

Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.

Not quite =- they believe that each "true" machine has a portion of the Machine Gods spirit wiuthin it, which embues it with the correct forms. "untrue" machines do not have this, and therefore are to be destroyed.

The reason for the apparent sentience (in a fashion - read the souldrinkers novels for an example of this) is most likely a function of the complexity of the machine and the Ghost in the Machine left behind by all the operators, techmarines, adepts etc who have linked with it. Hence you have the various novels/ comics where the previous Princeps talk tot he current one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.

Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM

Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.

Not quite =- they believe that each "true" machine has a portion of the Machine Gods spirit wiuthin it, which embues it with the correct forms. "untrue" machines do not have this, and therefore are to be destroyed.

The reason for the apparent sentience (in a fashion - read the souldrinkers novels for an example of this) is most likely a function of the complexity of the machine and the Ghost in the Machine left behind by all the operators, techmarines, adepts etc who have linked with it. Hence you have the various novels/ comics where the previous Princeps talk tot he current one.

Even so, my point was that it is only sentient machines that are outlawed, so it is perfectly permissible for, as an example, the Land Raider machine-spirit to be an A.I.

It isnt really an "I" then, is it? I always saw AI == sentient - otherwise there isnt intelligence, just knowledge.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt really an "I" then, is it? I always saw AI == sentient - otherwise there isnt intelligence, just knowledge.

It's a tricky issue, to be fair. Sentience can be defined a number of different ways, as I have just discovered via the Oxford English Dictionary. I would say that intelligence and sentience do not have to be one and the same, as in theory the PC/Laptop you are using now has a very basic element of A.I to it when playing any kind of video game, and nobody classes modern computers as sentient.
Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure that last sentence was accurate, so make of it what you will.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...

Please note that those ships, although yes, in some cases 10,000 years old, were built in, at earliest, 30,000 AD. The timeline for Star Trek is the 2300s AD. This HAS to suggest that those ships were built with a crushingly superior theoretical, scientific and industrial base.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Terminus - actually even the adepts still treat them as religious icons, without a deep understanding of the "how" - hence why STCs are so prized. They understand ho0w to fix, not create - if what you are saying is true why do they treat the loss of a Titan as an irreplaceable loss of machinery? Your version of the truth would allow them to still create titans - whcih they cannot (especially as the STC for titans went a little...wrong....)

Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.

Incorrect on both counts.

To quote Lexicanum;

"At full strength, a Legion typically numbers 16 Titans, however this figure varies greatly in practice. Battle losses can take centuries to replace, as the construction of a new Titan is a long and laborious process."

So new Titans can be built, and in fact ARE built. It takes time, because Battle Titans are bleeding huge and use, yes, old technology.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.

"Mars holds the complete data on the Baneblade's construction."

"* Mars - primary pattern
* Lucius - different engine, greater weight, greater superstructure and hull armour"

There are at least two worlds, therefore, which do in fact produce Baneblades. One of them has even modified the STC pattern.

You consistently overstate the Imperium's ignorance. Yes, they revere their technology. Yes, they have slipped back from where they stood thousands of years ago. But just because they revere technology does not mean that the priesthood of Mars does not understand it; that's like claiming that in Europe, during the Dark Ages, Catholic priests didn't understand the Bible!


Another point; you continually bring up your claim that IoM ships don't have FTL sensors. That's flatly untrue. Even assuming that ALL IoM mechanical sensors work at light-speed, you are failing to account for psykers.

Yes, the Federation universe has some psykers, but they aren't developed, understood, and used in the same way or to anything like the same capacity that IoM psykers are. Astropaths can reach across the universe with their minds. The Picard maneuver would be just as impossible against an IoM ship as it would be against a Federation ship, because every single ship carries at least one Astropath, which could see the Federation ship no matter how fast it was moving.


Now, in the initial encounters, the Federation might well score some success with such tactics, just because the IoM wouldn't realize what they were doing. That advantage would disappear as soon as it became apparent that the psykers could still see them.

To add to that, have you considered that the Federation couldn't see IoM ships either, while they were in the Warp? The Federation has no sensor that could track a ship through another dimension, and since they would have no way of knowing what the hell the IoM ships were doing when they entered the Warp, and anyone trying to follow them would be torn apart by Daemons, they would suffer a huge strategic handicap in mobility.

People it's no contest UFP is .

LOL, okay, if nosferatu has anything to say to that, he's just strengthening the obstinate Trekkie nerd stereotype. You'll notice all the other gung-ho UFP proponents have quietly slinked out.

Bezerker

1) You assume the same rate of technological progress, or same basis. Absurdly illogical, and also false - they didnt come up with a more reliable method of travel in at least 10k years, they didnt discover inertialess (or interia supressing) drives and fields, they didnt discover a way to reinforce a way to use an energy field to reinforce their hull - and so on.

The ST world is leagues ahead in technology.

2) Note I said WITHOUT the STC. The lexicanum quote does NOT disprove that - it in fact supports it. Only those worlds with the STC produce it - whod have thunk it! Almost like thats how these things are built...

3) Please, for the love of anything, actually read something other than lexicanum. Knoiwing the HOW is something they DO NOT KNOW for the truly awe inspiring thing s- like titans and 'blades. This is stated, and it is WHY THEY NEED STCs. Why do you think they are so revered? Why is Lands so revered? Without STCs they cannot produce raiders, speeders etc - at least not approaching the sophistication (i will leave aside how unsophisticated either is, compared to a challenger II for example) of the original. Does this not indicate to your 40k-philic brain that perhaps, just perhaps, they truly dont *understand* the how on everything?

3) You have no basis of evidence that supports psykers being a) able to pinpoiint the *exact* position osf a ship[ travelling at sublight or b) one travelling at warp.

So the PM would work, and work repeatedly. You also seem to assume an event taking 0.1 seconds could be transmited by the Astropath to the bridge crew quickly enough for them to change course to avoid the torpedo that is travelling at >light speed towards them.

Imperium ships simply do not operate on that time scale. They are used to waiting *hours* for events to unfold (again, please read some actual background on space battles, and how they are described, before responding with more inaccurate "facts" as that is what they operate on - hell, play BFG and you will get some feel for how slow everythingn is!

4) As I have repeatedly sdtated - so the Geller field, which protects a ship from Daemons, and is an EM field, couldnt be analysed and replicated? You are limited in your understanding of ST tech.

Yes, the first time a ship exits the warp they would be unprepared. However, given that exit from the warp HAS to be many AU from planetary orbit (again, not debateable. Only one place exists where they can exit closer and that is because they use wormholes), that isnt too much of a cnocern - plenty of time for the network of subspace sensors to have mapped the exit, probed the internals (again, fluff shows the exit remains open for a period of time, normally related to the size of vehicle leaving the warp), determined what the fields around the battleship were (as they must remain "on" til the ship has completely cleared the warp) and worked out a way to, most likely, make the deflector dish do the same thing.

Only more reliably, and probably in a slightly prettier way

AM are ignorant of many, many things - because of how they revere them.

Case in point ...

You do realise that someone has already disproved the Picard Maneuever as being a viable tactic, Nosferatu?

Disproved it how?

They stated, accurately, that it isnt used in the series, using DS9 as an example.

Unfortunately it was a completely, 100% innacruate "proof", as it ignored that DS9 has FTL sensors.

Lack of FTL sensors is the key to the manouver working; the Ferengi ship it was tried on first DID have warp drive, just not the ability to sense faster than light (presumably making FTL travel...interesting), DS9 does. So it wouldnt work against DS9. So it wasnt tried.

Its amazingly simple really....

Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Disproved it how?

They stated, accurately, that it isnt used in the series, using DS9 as an example.

Unfortunately it was a completely, 100% innacruate "proof", as it ignored that DS9 has FTL sensors.

Lack of FTL sensors is the key to the manouver working; the Ferengi ship it was tried on first DID have warp drive, just not the ability to sense faster than light (presumably making FTL travel...interesting), DS9 does. So it wouldnt work against DS9. So it wasnt tried.

Its amazingly simple really....

Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?

They then pointed out several instances where it would have been viable for a manoeuvre to have worked, but wasn't used.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?

And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.

Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.

The biggest problem the Federation is facing, is that their only dedicated warship class, is about the size of a IoM Bomber (and twice the size of an IoM Fighter).
Even the galaxy and sovereign class starships are smaller than the smallest escort ships the Imperial fleet is using.

Given this size difference (and the difference in fleet sizes), the federation as it is has a significant disadvantage in any confrontation.
The only question is if more reliable interstellar travel and communication, relative shield/armour/weapon strengths, and ability to
adapt to a new enemy (federation starships are equipped with a lot of scientific equipment to study new phenomena) can
tip the scales in favour of the federation.

If federation tech is equivalent or better than Necron tech, UFP might have a small chance (they still have too few ships),
they would most likely need several new classes of starship based around the same principles as the Defiant class
(built for war, not science and exploration) in several size classes, and the time to build a sizeable armada of these new starships.

The Federation mostly uses diplomacy creating neutral zones between them and their neighbours, and the real threats (the borg and dominion)
are too far away (front against dominion is mostly limited to the wormhole, and the borg most likely just don't bother with the federation yet, or
hit a setback at the end of Voyager). They have never really needed the massive warships/armada needed to take on the Imperium.
With the threat of the borg and dominion they started building some warships (Defiant Class/Prometheus prototype), and with the threat
of the IoM, they would most likely first try diplomacy, then panic when they realised what they were dealing with, then scrambling to build
something to deal with this new threat.
One posibility would be that Starfleet would develop the highly advanced cloaking technology in the Star Trek universe, making a
federation starship very similar to necron ships (smaller than imperial ships with stealth technology, greater speed, and particle weapons,
only lacking the regenerative properties). Starfleet would need some time to develop the cloaks, but they should have enough experience
with cloaking devices (and captured at least 2 (one klingon, one romulan) intact cloaking devices) to figure it out.
The only reason they don't use cloaking devices is that they signed a treaty not to, and are too nice to break it.

The UFP can't win.

Cloaking is meaningless when you have psykers at your beck and call.

40k has Marbo. No contest.

Terminus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?

And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.

Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.

I was JUST getting ready to pose "Angry trekkie comes in to restate same tired arguments in 3...2...1.." but the trekkie beat me to the punch

nosferatu1001 wrote:Bezerker

1) You assume the same rate of technological progress, or same basis. Absurdly illogical, and also false - they didnt come up with a more reliable method of travel in at least 10k years, they didnt discover inertialess (or interia supressing) drives and fields, they didnt discover a way to reinforce a way to use an energy field to reinforce their hull - and so on.

I absolutely assume a similar rate of progress/scientific basis for technological progress, because otherwise a conflict cannot be talked about. If we DON'T assume that, then it's entirely likely that neither side will be able to harm or even communicate with each other. For one thing, do we even actually know that Geller fields and void shields are electromagnetic in basis? Maybe they work off of sorcery. If that was the case, Starfleet couldn't replicate either, no matter how hard they tried, until they accepted the reality of magic and the Warp; something utterly counter to their idealistic, humanist philosophy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Note I said WITHOUT the STC. The lexicanum quote does NOT disprove that - it in fact supports it. Only those worlds with the STC produce it - whod have thunk it! Almost like thats how these things are built...
Knoiwing the HOW is something they DO NOT KNOW for the truly awe inspiring thing s- like titans and 'blades. This is stated, and it is WHY THEY NEED STCs. Why do you think they are so revered? Why is Lands so revered? Without STCs they cannot produce raiders, speeders etc - at least not approaching the sophistication (i will leave aside how unsophisticated either is, compared to a challenger II for example) of the original. Does this not indicate to your 40k-philic brain that perhaps, just perhaps, they truly dont *understand* the how on everything?

Granted, with reservations, but irrelevent. There are many things the Admech as a whole does not understand about the technology of the past. The AdMech has a very utilitarian approach; they don't need to understand why a thing works, as long as it does. The STC exists, and so the vehicle or ship can be produced. Minor changes or improvements are made, at a very slow pace, and that suffices.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
4) As I have repeatedly sdtated - so the Geller field, which protects a ship from Daemons, and is an EM field, couldnt be analysed and replicated? You are limited in your understanding of ST tech.

Yes, the first time a ship exits the warp they would be unprepared. However, given that exit from the warp HAS to be many AU from planetary orbit (again, not debateable. Only one place exists where they can exit closer and that is because they use wormholes), that isnt too much of a cnocern - plenty of time for the network of subspace sensors to have mapped the exit, probed the internals (again, fluff shows the exit remains open for a period of time, normally related to the size of vehicle leaving the warp), determined what the fields around the battleship were (as they must remain "on" til the ship has completely cleared the warp) and worked out a way to, most likely, make the deflector dish do the same thing.

Absolutely, the IoM ships have to exit a ways away from a star. And yes, they leave a rift behind them; a rift which will cause daemonic manifestations on any Federation ships which approach it, a rift which leads into a universe of shifting nightmare navigable only with the aid of powerful, specially-trained psykers that the Federation DOESN'T HAVE. In short, a rift that is utterly useless to the Federation. If for some reason an IoM force were ever to retreat, and the Federation tried to pursue them into the Warp, even assuming they could duplicate the Geller field, even assuming they could hold off the daemons, they would still be adrift in the Warp, unable to detect anything, unable to know where they are or even to leave safely. In short, they'd all be dead. That being so, at the very least Warp travel gives the Imperium constant strategic surprise and an unassailable way out of any sticky situations they find themselves in. Militarily, that's an enormous advantage which the Federation would be utterly unable to counter, and which more than compensates for the higher tactical speed and maneuverability of Starfleet vessels.

In addition, what makes you think IoM ships would need to approach closely to Earth? If they wanted to invade, true, they'd need to land ships, but if they simply wanted to destroy it (as well they might), they simply exit the Warp, pinpoint Earth, compute a ballistic trajectory to it's future location given the speed of their projectiles (which is within our current computing capacity, let alone theirs), fire a few broadsides of macro-cannon shells, and enter the Warp again. Good luck to Starfleet in detecting and intercepting thousands upon thousands of small, inert metallic objects before they sweep through Earth's path and pulverize everything in orbit, along with large areas of the Earth's surface. The IoM can do that as many times as they want, and Starfleet can't do jack about it.

Nightsbane wrote:I was JUST getting ready to pose "Angry trekkie comes in to restate same tired arguments in 3...2...1.." but the trekkie beat me to the punch

Ah, but you see, this is the wonderful thing about them, you always get an opportunity to try again.

For example, Berserker just fired a brutal logic broadside. Restatement of tired argument (perhaps "Picard maneuver! Picard maneuver! Picard maneuver!" or another old chestnut) incoming in 3... 2... 1...

BeRzErKeR wrote:*destruction of an argument*

I really can't wait to see nos's response.

Terminus wrote:Cloaking is meaningless when you have psykers at your beck and call.

Not sure how well it would work, but it would be logical that a (perhaps modified)Gellar Field or something like it could
block psykers (since it would logically put an extra boundary between the warp and the vessel inside the field) It's even possible
that the warp field/subspace field generated by federation warp drives could serve this purpose as it is a displacement
in spacetime while the Gellar field is a bubble of real spacetime.
After all, Star Trek is all about finding a technobabble solution to every problem imaginable


I'm not saying the federation as it is (maybe if you take the 29th century federation with their rather sophisticated time travel)
stands a chance, but given some advance warning about the threat the IoM would pose and their capabilities, they
might be able to develop workable technologies to give them a slight chance
(but a lot of time and resources would be needed to build a large enough fleet).

IoM have been facing eldar, orcs, chaos, and more for millennia and thus have a lot of their culture dedicated to warfare,
while UFP have made treaties creating neutral zones (first with the klingons and later with the romulans) and as I noted before
only started building warships after the dominion showed up in one of the later series.

The 2 settings are based on very different principles, IoM is based on survival and dominance at any cost while
Star trek (after Kirk) is based on "If you can't solve it with diplomacy, solve it with science, and don't forget to avoid
influencing other cultures".

In the WH40k novel/codex story, the Imperium would face a "small" humanoid civilisation consisting of several xenos species working together
and sending a crusade to eradicate them. The xenos would poses technologies the IoM were not familiar with incurring mediocre losses to the
fleet, but in the end the imperial fleet would crush the xenos, eradicating them entirely and claiming their worlds for the Emperor.

In the star trek movie/episode, USS <generic starship> would face some aggressive aliens who would not listen to diplomacy, and be badly beaten
forcing a retreat. They would hide in an asteroid belt where they would find some stranded alien craft that turns out to be a necron craft with a pylon
that was being transported to Cadia several millennia ago. Someone will then reverse engineer the technology making a weapon or device that
interferes with (warhammer)warp travel. They will give IoM a chance to return to where they came from, but the Imperial fleet will ignore this and be destroyed by
the weapon/device. Then Deep Space 10 would be built to keep an eye on this new threat.

Well, they'd probably need a few psykers of their own to test the functionality of their Gellar field (not sure if the Gellar field actually blocks psykers, but the Imperium certainly has various dampening devices that may or may not work on similar principles).

But assuming the Star Trek movie/episode, it would likely be a Tau-esque situation. In other words, a small (relatively) Imperial fleet is destroyed, and no further attack is made as it would take decades if not longer for the report of the fleet's destruction to reach the Administratum, for the proper reports to be filed for requisitioning an additional fleet, which then would spend further decades languishing in low-priority status, being downgraded a multitude of times as an Ork Waagh! or Black Crusade or Tyranid Hive fleet demand more immediate attention, until finally something is thrown together centuries later with the records of the original fleet's purpose long lost. Then, if DS10 (or indeed the federation) is still around, the cycle repeats itself never really getting anywhere. How very Star Trek indeed.

Still, when the two possible resolutions are ultimate destruction of the Federation (40k novel) or unending impasse (ST movie), sounds like the Imperium of Man still wins.

Kilkrazy wrote:

What do you mean by a practical military weapon? Large bombs are not practical as a weapon for us because we can get better results from large numbers of smaller bombs.

The Federation, not constrained by technology or resources, can build as many weapons as it wants. The fact that it doesn't want to at the moment doesn't demonstrate an inability to do so.

For one thing, the latest film shows that Federation mining companies have the capability to destroy a planet with a couple of hours of drilling.

The Federation IS limited by resources, technology, and political concerns. They can't simply switch to military mass production from the consumer based economy that they currently have. Not to mention, you have to note that the same physics that applies to conventional explosions on Earth apply to explosions in space as well.

The last film isn't really canon for our discussions, as it take places in a completely alternate universe that the Federation doesn't have access to. Not to mention, the Narada was specially refitted with technology from secret Romulan store houses according to the prequel comics, and the entire supply of red matter was destroyed in the destruction of the Narada, and it's not even a material the average Federation ship carries, so we really can't say that the average Trek mining vessel can destroy a planet.


Nosferatu: You continue to claim that the reason the Picard Maneuver is not used on a regular basis is because the average ship has FTL sensors. However, you have not replied to my point that if the Enterprise, a front line vessel in Starfleet, has FTL sensors, why did Data need to rely on technobabble detection of deep space gases instead of just utilizing the ships FTL sensors? Unless you can adequately explain this, we can not assume that the Enterprise has FTL sensors, and even if they do, they don't have the sensitivity to be useful in a combat situation.

Terminus wrote:Well, they'd probably need a few psykers of their own to test the functionality of their Gellar field (not sure if the Gellar field actually blocks psykers, but the Imperium certainly has various dampening devices that may or may not work on similar principles).

But assuming the Star Trek movie/episode, it would likely be a Tau-esque situation. In other words, a small (relatively) Imperial fleet is destroyed, and no further attack is made as it would take decades if not longer for the report of the fleet's destruction to reach the Administratum, for the proper reports to be filed for requisitioning an additional fleet, which then would spend further decades languishing in low-priority status, being downgraded a multitude of times as an Ork Waagh! or Black Crusade or Tyranid Hive fleet demand more immediate attention, until finally something is thrown together centuries later with the records of the original fleet's purpose long lost. Then, if DS10 (or indeed the federation) is still around, the cycle repeats itself never really getting anywhere. How very Star Trek indeed.

Still, when the two possible resolutions are ultimate destruction of the Federation (40k novel) or unending impasse (ST movie), sounds like the Imperium of Man still wins.

It's the problem with the Star Trek philosophy Being nice doesn't really work when dealing with the IoM. From their response to the borg,
it isn't likely the Federation would take the offensive when faced with a huge threat. They seem happy with an unending stand-off, and would most likely go
for that with the IoM.
As you noted, this behaviour would put them rather low on IoM's priority.

Accersitus wrote:The biggest problem the Federation is facing, is that their only dedicated warship class, is about the size of a IoM Bomber (and twice the size of an IoM Fighter).
Even the galaxy and sovereign class starships are smaller than the smallest escort ships the Imperial fleet is using.

...
...

A WW2 battleship was about 25,000 tons displacement.

A WW2 dive bomber was about 2.5 tons fully loaded weight.

Dive bombers easily sank battleships. Battleships had trouble hitting dive bombers.

Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...

Do you think that the imperium has just been using the same metals they have found on earth for the past....oh I dont know, ten thousand years or more years? Even after they lost alot of technology (this being they lost the knowledge to remake some weapon or designs, not ALL weapons and ships, tanks, etc designs) ? Things get repaired and built daily im sure.

This is a funny topic for me. The UFP has been around for what....as far as modern human recorded history is concerned, about 10000 years or so. Only been space faring for about 200.

The IoM has been space faring for at the very least 10000 years. That's in space. And before that it says that for even more thousands of years they had ruled much of the universe, before warp storms cut them off from reinforcing against Xenos, etc, leading to a fall of countless years until the emprah finally came along. Do you think for a moment that their technology just stopped progressing as soon as they discovered space travel? Thats what you make it sound like. Here is why i say that.

Think of it this way...you say it's dark age technology correct? compared to the UFP that is. So a space faring, universe ruling civiliaztion of humans who's only real opposistion was themselves after the horus heresy, out of a galaxy of hostile aliens that constantly try to kill them, including the FORMER masters of the galaxy (eldar, who have incredibly more advanced technology, comparable to UFP if not greater, and still can't take the imperium on, which people in this thread ALSO claim the UFP could do) Have no chance in hell against humans that have barely been in space for 200 years? yeah we know that they are like an old cancerous tumor of arrogance and superstition, probably should be put out of its misery, etc, and how UFP is the new and bold flavor of doritos for the year. But think about what i just said. The Eldar, whos size is comparable (or at the very least fire power and technology) to the UFP in alot of ways, even techonology wise, and HAVE discovered warp travel, cloaking devices, etc....even with all these things they cannot and WILL not take on the imperium. They stay in the shadows and avoid their fury. Not because they are better than them...but because the IoM have ALOT more ships to overwhelm them.

Another good example...look at the 40K universe itself for this one. Orks. A race of creatures who's technology is laughable and comparable to modern day in many ways. They can still give any race in the galaxy a run for their money...and why? Because they have SO many bodies. I dont care how cool your gun is, how many planets it blows up, how many gun shots your uber shields can stop before it fails, or dodge...eventually, a bullet in the head does the exact same thing as a phaser. Now I'd like you to compare this theory to the UFP....even if they could destroy and hold off for a long time...do you honestly, in your mind, beleive and think that they could fight off, shrug off, outmaneuver, potentially thousands of ships all firing at once at the same targets, of which there would most likely be around 100-200 ships for the UFP at most? Especially when, as we have said already, that imperial weapons dont make tiny explosions. And that I've said they can track, target and kill ships as long as they are within a thousand km's or so, comparable to the Feds who seem to need to be in about 50 KM range to utilize their advanced weaponry?

Again, im not trying to say that the UFP isn't advanced, be able to put up a fight, doesnt have good tactics etc...but sometimes, you gotta really face the facts.

Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.

This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.

This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.

I like to look at Trekkie fans as quite possibly the ultimate fanboys to go up against. There's no rational discussion with them. there's no acknowledgement from them to you for putting up a good argument, potentially proving them wrong a few times, or vice versa with them proving you wrong a few times.

No, instead they choose the path of eternal fan boy, who would rather die and be trodden on by the feet of the emperors finest, than admit that in anyway possible, that star trek would lose to any other fantasy universe at all.

"Not only would us UFP lovers win, you wouldnt even be able to touch us! We wouldnt lose ONE ship at all! Even if it's five thousand against two hundred!!! We are THAT good. I know, it's almost too much to handle how amazing our peaceful science ships can still take on everyone without dying. Oh. Except for other ships and races in the star trek universe, whos technology and weapons may be inferior to the UFPs....which could be compared with technologies of the IoM....which still manage to destroy our ships in many episodes...."