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Gorgarak: I almost swear that the average trek fanboy sees every creative use of Trek technology (that tends to almost destroy the ship most of the time). Creative uses that require the minds of the finest tacticians, engineers, and technology the Federation has to offer to even WORK, and then assumes that EVERY ship in the Federation would be able to utilize that creative use of that technology. But yeah......Trek fanboys are almostelp but cling definitely the worse, and can't help but be utterly ignorant of the SCALE of the Federation versus nearly anything else.

And Kilkrazy: Yes, that's true, but there's a few differences.

1) The dive bomber could only sink a battleship only because it was carrying a single huge projectile compared to itself. If you look at the design of a dive bomber, you'll notice that the bomb is a significant portion of the bombers length. A battleship shell (which often served as the source for some dive bomber bombs ) is almost miniscule compared to the ship as a whole. In fact, the size of a battleship shell compared to the battleship is roughly equivalent to the size of a machine gun round compared to the dive bomber. That machine gun round obviously would do absolutely nothing to the battleship. As far as I can recall, Federation ships do not possess weapons that are a significant size of the whole ship.

2) Just because a dive bomber could sink a battleship, doesn't mean that they could do it with zero losses, and flit around with impunity. In fact, the very nature of their similar design meant that they were very vulnerable to weapons fire, and would almost never suffer zero losses.

I would like to see dive bombers being outnumbered 10:1 by yammato-class ships, it would make me smile on the inside.

Terminus wrote:Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.

This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.

God forbid someone tell them about Necron tech then. Phase jumps, unscannable ships unless firing/moving enough to detect, regenerating hulls and legions of deathless robots that would sooner hack computer systems and Rick roll the entire enemy ship rather than open a hailing frequency.

Let me add something at this angle.

Yes Star Trek is pretty kick ***, and YES it is the society we can only hope to achieve, a utopia of science, sharing, and exploration where each person spends their life aiding their fellow man and exploring the cosmos. I sure as **** hope that mankind can elevate to such a standard and would love to live in such a universe.

BUT

Such a universe, based on logic, science, and care could not ever, EVER, stand up to the blind destruction of the imperium. You have the embodiement of the dark ages thrust upon the world of ultimate enlightenment. Imagine if it were the inquisition with modern assault rifles vs. hippies. Who do you think would win. The imperium wishes to completely erase that which it finds heretical. There is no mercy or post set as what is going to far. The UFP could not hope to compete with an enemy of such resolve.

The imperium (although totally kick ***!) is meant to show the horror of the dark ages and superstition halting progress.

The UFP is meant to show the ultimate evolution of mankind.

Utopia will most likely always lose to undying determination and hatred, just as it does on a day to day basis in our modern lives. Why do you think those of us that are American are still forced to live in a system where we actually have a for profit health care system?? Hate and profit dominates good will.

Terminus - the quality of your posts continues to impress. Any chance of adding anything usefuL?

BeRzErKeR wrote:I absolutely assume a similar rate of progress/scientific basis for technological progress, because otherwise a conflict cannot be talked about. If we DON'T assume that, then it's entirely likely that neither side will be able to harm or even communicate with each other. For one thing, do we even actually know that Geller fields and void shields are electromagnetic in basis? Maybe they work off of sorcery. If that was the case, Starfleet couldn't replicate either, no matter how hard they tried, until they accepted the reality of magic and the Warp; something utterly counter to their idealistic, humanist philosophy.

Except, as I showed, the technologies *are* different, and the rate of progress is similarly different - there is no intertia compensating system in 40k, no SIF, etc. They just dont exist - and given the rabid degree to which the AM retain knowledge (not understanding) it is unlikely in the extreme that it would be utterly unmentioned in any of the background.

Yes, we know Geller fields are EM based, the generators for them are mentioned repeatedly as being normal machines PLUS they exist preNavigator gene, as they are necessary for even short trips (unless you want your trip to be *really* short. Or long, depending on which god takes a fancy..) - same for Void shields, which definitely exist without a psychic (none on oard titans, and they were not maintained by any psykers on the Gas mining city when the blood pact used them as a trap; again, void shield generators are mentioned)

Additionally - are you sure it is magic, and not just "another dimension" properties, aka power derived from the warp? For example "Q" appears to work by "magic" yet they have found an explanation for it, same as for psychics (gene manipulation, ref Khan) and even Galactic barrier (edge and inner - turns out both a "Q" entities" that have been exiled) entities.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Granted, with reservations, but irrelevent. There are many things the Admech as a whole does not understand about the technology of the past.

Finally you Admit the point! The POINT is that they do not understand the *HOW*, meaning adapting to new enemies is something they frankly cannot do technologically. WHich is why if the Tau get rolling theyre screwed. Or it the NEcrons fully awaken theyre screwed. They are culturally and religiiously incapable of making change - the Imperium is the perfect example of a declining culture in terms of power and understanding. Frankly, everythings held together by spit and prayer.

BeRzErKeR wrote: The AdMech has a very utilitarian approach; they don't need to understand why a thing works, as long as it does. The STC exists, and so the vehicle or ship can be produced. Minor changes or improvements are made, at a very slow pace, and that suffices.

Except when they need to innovate. Which they are strongly prohibited from doing, with any "change" taking centuries.

Hell the Noosphere only got widespread adoption because of the crisis on Mars, otherwise you may not have seen that for anotehr 1k years.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Absolutely, the IoM ships have to exit a ways away from a star. And yes, they leave a rift behind them; a rift which will cause daemonic manifestations on any Federation ships which approach it

How close is this rifts influence? Remember they have sensors which can pinpoint starships over lightyears of distance. They have probes with small warp drives for extended range.

Again, you have a fundamental gap in understanding of Star Trek technology.

BeRzErKeR wrote:, a rift which leads into a universe of shifting nightmare navigable only with the aid of powerful, specially-trained psykers that the Federation DOESN'T HAVE.

Yet. The Federation knows of at least 3 psychic races (betazoids, Organians, VUlcans, I would include those from the Pilot however they seem happy to stay on their own planet and not be seen elsewhere) plus immense individuals that may be part of other races (the Traveller, Will Crusher at the end) that could be easily powerful enough to detect something as strnog as the AStronomicon. Again, you are too used to thinking in 40k terms, where nothing of substance changes - this is the antithesis of how trek science works. where change is the norm.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In short, a rift that is utterly useless to the Federation. If for some reason an IoM force were ever to retreat, and the Federation tried to pursue them into the Warp, even assuming they could duplicate the Geller field, even assuming they could hold off the daemons, they would still be adrift in the Warp, unable to detect anything, unable to know where they are or even to leave safely. In short, they'd all be dead.

And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.

And replicated.

Because this is a society entirely, 100% diametrically opposed to the way the Imperium works. They understand their technology, they continually research and develop new technology, and the implement it quickly.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That being so, at the very least Warp travel gives the Imperium constant strategic surprise and an unassailable way out of any sticky situations they find themselves in. Militarily, that's an enormous advantage which the Federation would be utterly unable to counter, and which more than compensates for the higher tactical speed and maneuverability of Starfleet vessels.

Again, you make a fundamentally incorrect assumption: that it woudl be always unassailble. The Federation already use other dimensions to sense objects (subspace, phase space, etc), are aware of and know how to travel to entirely different universes (Mirror onwards) and even universes that potentially are supersets of our own (Fluidic space, when you read the other books around the subject) - so saying they would be "utterly unable to counter" is a flawed statement - demonstrably so.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, what makes you think IoM ships would need to approach closely to Earth? If they wanted to invade, true, they'd need to land ships, but if they simply wanted to destroy it (as well they might), they simply exit the Warp, pinpoint Earth, compute a ballistic trajectory to it's future location given the speed of their projectiles (which is within our current computing capacity, let alone theirs), fire a few broadsides of macro-cannon shells, and enter the Warp again. Good luck to Starfleet in detecting and intercepting thousands upon thousands of small, inert metallic objects before they sweep through Earth's path and pulverize everything in orbit, along with large areas of the Earth's surface. The IoM can do that as many times as they want, and Starfleet can't do jack about it.

WOw, again a fundamental lack of understanding of sensor technology. Given that we can detect inert objects (small asteroids) NOW, with basic Radar (essentially, some use of LIDAR and optical occlusion) on objects the size of a MC shell, you really think a race that can detect small ships across LIGHT YEARS would struggle?

That is the worst idea yet, completely bafflingly simple to defeat. Orbital defences. Track and kill. Ballistic trajectories are an awful tactic...

And yes, for the 100th time: THEY HAVE FTL SENSORS. Their sensors, and comms, work on subspace, a region where "normal speed" is faster than light. Hence why their communications are lag free (almost, 9.9999 is as high as a boosted signal gets, so at 10k parsecs you have a small delay) and they can work out what is happening in a system 10 light years away *now*, not 10 years ago. Saying otherwise is laughable. Please, stop it - ignore that flaw in your argument if you want, but please stop repeating the error.

Now, to everyone (bar Terminus, there is no hope there) that loves to use the "trekkie nerd" epithet - get over yourselves, as youre all 40k nerds. There is no superiority complex allowed here! I'm both a trek AND 40K fan, and I find the 40k universe MORE engrossing than trek because, well, its more horrifying - Trek end-of-voyager is fairly settled, as they have significantly reduced all the threats and, generally, things are looking up. As opposed to 40k, with the emperor dead, the imperium losing more worlds pemanently to chaos (you cannot recolonise a chaos planet) meaning they are shrinking (some minor wins, but minor losses as well - in the long run the trend is down) or the necrons awakening and going "boo!" while murdering everyone and your sun in the process - this is a more interesting place to be.

However I can at least see and understand (something some people here severely lack) the huge advantage simply *understanding stuff* is as far as ST vs IoM goes - yes, the IoM have huge ships and, like Leafblower (yuck, awful name) if they get a good first strike in that would probably it. HOwever to simply pretend that big == best is just naive, and shows a clear lack of understanding of the differences between the two cultures.

AS I have already said - the Feds would probably try diplomacy, whcih wouldnt work against the space xenophobes and may well doom them. However the Imperium would have to react *very* quickly in order to stop them in one go, before the tech superiority of the federation starts to bring them level again - and that is something that is impossible for the IoM to do. The administratum works in *years*, with it being acknowledged many times that warp travel is slow (months or years to reach destinations, re Brotherhood of the Snake, various guard novels, the Black Ships taking years to travel round their assigned routes, etc) enough that a combined strike isnt possible. Even AStropathic comms take time, as they have to be relayed between minds, after being decoded (not instantaneous), translated from the encoding to something the pskyer can retransmit (again, not instantaneous - each pskyer has a way they transmit that is personal to them) and then broadcast again.

Finally Bezerker - I noticed you failed to concede the point explicitly, but I assume you accept that an event not measured in hours is difficult for a IoM ship to deal with? In otherwords the PM would work in so much as even ASSUMING the psyker can pinpoint a ship travelling at warp (a huge assumption), it could not relay that information to the ship AND have the ship react in any *meaningful* way in time to stop it? Avoiding whether you think the PM would work or not (that is irrelevant) you must still, assuming you have any knowledge of space battles in 40k, that this is a true statement?

Edit: Finally, yes I think the Necrons would scare the poop out of Star Trek, as probably only biogel computers would be "safe" from remote shutdown. This is one area where the backwardness of the imperium, much like in BSG, woudl save them - you cannot hack a servitor remotely. Well, not as easily as a networked, almsot sentient (or actually sentient, Data, M39, various others) computer that seems to be quite trusting.

However hulls that repair themselves arent unknown in Trek - they have adaptive armour at the end of voyager, in order to shake off the Borg. It probably has something to do with the deflector dish though....but still, the Necrons are a far harder threat to the Feds than the IoM, just because everything ST does the Necrons seem to do better - hell, even their redshirts get to die repeatedly, rather than just once!

Edit2: Psychic dampeners. They are definitely not "magic" as so could be researched and replicated, range increased etc. SUddeny "but we have psychics!!!!" becomes a rather poor argument. Take away psychics and the imperium REALLY struggles, as they can only make short warp jumps, massively increasing their travel time.

Reading this thread. I find it extremely funny that the 40k fanbois are so down on the trekkies.

This entire thread is a treatise on "Nerd Rage"

LOL

Kurgash wrote:

Terminus wrote:Trekkie nerds are allergic to facts when it relates to their technology not being superior to everything everywhere always forever.

This thread really isn't about IoM vs. UFP anymore, for at least the last 4-5 pages. Now it's more a social experiment to see just how obstinate and dense a Trekkie can be. It's been a fascinating study so far.

God forbid someone tell them about Necron tech then. Phase jumps, unscannable ships unless firing/moving enough to detect, regenerating hulls and legions of deathless robots that would sooner hack computer systems and Rick roll the entire enemy ship rather than open a hailing frequency.

Sounds like the Borg equipped with Romulan cloaking technology.

funny thing is the federation would win against the imperium. simply because eventually the star trek timeline becomes the Andromeda time line.... sneaky federation using elorg ships

I was thinking that - Wraiths seem to use phase shifting tech, which the Federation knows about and can probably create a dampening (much like the tech device used in the souldrinkers 5th novel - a Magos had it) given enough incentive...which scary things coming through the wall would do

Additionally - the ships are only "undetectable" to Imperium sensors, they may be detectable on subspace sensor XYY - but it would be at least an interesting match up.

As it is the Feds vs IoM would be the equivalent of jet fighters (not bombers, or fighter bombers, if you insist on the weapon yield) vs 18/19th century galleons. One side is vastly more manourable, with better abiltiy to "see" you, and with better guided weaponry. The other side has bigger vessels.

Terminus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Edit: Terminus. Case in point that you add nothing to this thread? That, in fact, you may as well have just added "post count +1!!!" as that would have slighlty increased the value of your post?

And the angry trekkie nerd tirade reiterating the same tired arguments of the last 4 pages continues.

Please, do go on, you're providing ample evidence for the overall thesis of this thread.

Modquisition on
You're trolling on the thread about people having fun arguing about the number of angels on a pin. Cease a desist or you risk suspension.

This is a warning to all posters from this point forward on this thread. Cease the personal attacks and snide remarks. Argue points and have fun or don't post.

Specialized technology targeting the dangers of IoM's technology would be the only chance The Fedreation has, but that is after all what they do best.
Early encounter with the borg: "We can't hurt them, they adapt to our weapons": They build a specialized weapon then borg can't adapt too (Infinity Modulator).
Early encounter with the Dominion: "Their weapons ignore our shields": They manage to adapt their shields to repel this new kind of weapon.
Species 8472: "Even the borg can't hurt the bioships with their weapons": Voyager designs warheads using modified borg nanoprobes that are effective.
IoM: "Captain, a large asteroid field just appeared 4 light years ahead emmiting multiple energy signatures. Oh , it's a fleet of ships and they are powering weapons.":
The TV screen goes black and "To be continued" appears.

This is pretty much what the Star Trek narrative is based on (this and how important diplomacy and the (temporal) prime directive is), and why people who have seen a lot of Star Trek
feel the strength of the Federation is how they can adapt their technology to deal with pretty much everything even when they are seriously outclassed.
The Warhammer 40k universe is more realistic there in their accounts, where whoever has the most powerful ships/best strategy wins, with heavy losses on both sides in most cases,
not the one that can adapt a technology to cancel out whatever benefit the other one has.

One other interesting tactic for the federation to use, would be a small cloaked ship (using the cloak from the Reman warbird Scimitar (from Star Trek Nemesis) for example)
Crewed by specially trained Vulcans/Betazoid/other psychic race (who are trained to be hard to detect by other psykers), or shielded against psychic detection with technology
(some form of dampening field) or both.
Then arm the ship with a special weapon designed to overload the Gellar Field device on imperial starships.

The tactic would be to send these small ships to find imperial fleets, and disable their Gellar Fields just as they are moving in to the warp, and watch them being eaten by demons.
The federation would most likely not use a tactic like that(but they might think they just disabled their engines or desperate and be ok with it).
It would take a lot of time, and isn't really large scale enough to take on the IoM, but it could be effective as one of many specialized weapons to deal with the IoM.

Plus if there suddenly was a 1 in 10 chance (maybe not that good, but several magnitudes higher than normal) that the Gellar field didn't work, the Commissars would have even more work to do than normal.

But as I have noted in earlier posts, they would need some kind of doomsday device or equivalent power to really make up for their vast disadvantage in numbers, and they are generally too nice to
make something like that (they prohibit research in cloaking, biogenic weapons, genetic engineering, and Polaric ion energy to name a few).
Or they would need the time and resources to build their own huge armada.

While writing this, the best hope I can think of for the federation, is a device that creates a massive warp storm, and just blanket the entire federation with devices like this, preventing the IoM
from entering federation space at any useful speed. Since Federation FTL travel is not dependant on the warp, there would be no downside.
Edit2: Other than the possibility of a demonic incursion

The entire Imperium of Man vs. United Federation of Planets would most likely boil down to: "Can the UFP design a technology that gives them a chance against the Imperial fleet that is
larger in every way before they are wiped out?"
There is no way to prove this true of false, but the odds are against the UFP since they start at a disadvantage and have to design/build their advantage.
In addition the UFP are weighted down by morals giving them a further disadvantage, as they would most likely reject any development that exterminates the IoM
for "humanitarian" reasons.

In an objective confrontation between the two forces, logic dictates that IoM should win by sheer size and power, but there is a chance (not saying that it is a high one, but greater than zero) that UFP could develop something
giving them an advantage (after all that is what they do best and this shouldn't be ignored).


Edit: Btw, is it only me, or would people like to see more scifi where different races and factions have different ways of achieving FTL travel?
(Go 40k, necrons/nids don't travel through the warp ).

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:funny thing is the federation would win against the imperium. simply because eventually the star trek timeline becomes the Andromeda time line.... sneaky federation using elorg ships

Actually, the Star Trek writers would simply write up an episode in which Picard leaps in and saves the day thanks to his sheer awesomeness.
Truth be told, it's probably pointless comparing the two anyway, as they are so different in writing style and general plot that no matter what each side respectively says, there'll never be a resolution.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and someone back there brought up an interesting point, which I didn't think of. Both the Eldar and Tau have immensely advanced tech compared to the stagnant Imperium, and yet they have not utterly destroyed the Imperium; far from it, the Imperium has won many battles against the fleets of these two races, and indeed has driven the Tau back from the areas of Ultramar and other Eastern Front provinces. They did this through a mix of massive firepower and numbers.
I'm not throwing out Nosferatu's point in any way, just saying that technology doesn't always win battles.

Except that the Eldar are a dying race, they really dont have ANY numbers, and Tau are still fledgling.

Plus both Eldar and Tau have a similar tech base - Lances, Immaterium travel, etc. Compare this to the tech base of the Necron, or the UFP, and you should see the disparity - hence why the Imperium struggles so much with the Necrons; the way they operate is so far outside what they know AND the tech is so advanced it is a double whammy.

Besides, usually what happens in ST is it turns out either Crusher can sort it, Data can sort it, or its the Deflector dish - or all 3.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that the Eldar are a dying race, they really dont have ANY numbers, and Tau are still fledgling.

Plus both Eldar and Tau have a similar tech base - Lances, Immaterium travel, etc. Compare this to the tech base of the Necron, or the UFP, and you should see the disparity - hence why the Imperium struggles so much with the Necrons; the way they operate is so far outside what they know AND the tech is so advanced it is a double whammy.

Besides, usually what happens in ST is it turns out either Crusher can sort it, Data can sort it, or its the Deflector dish - or all 3.

They have enough numbers to rain all kinds of hell on anyone who tries attacking a Craftworld
And the Tau are no pushovers when it comes to space combat either, but I see your point, I suppose the Eldar/Tau do have similar doctrines to the Imperium when it comes to battling.

On the subject of the Necrons, it should be noted that the Imperium is in fact developing anti-Cron tactics, and has managed to defeat the 'crons on occasion. My point is that the war between the Imperium and the UFP would not be as one-sided as you say.

Well, now that the mods have come in and started to be heavy handed I think I'm done. Since both supported the thinking that star trek would win I'm not surprised.

You can't reason with a star trek fanboy, and now that we have been muzzled there is no point in continuing on.

However they are still in their infancy, and mainly around battling them on the ground where their mode of fighting still seems similar to the Imperium. In space they cant spot the ships before they arrive, and have huge dificulty with the necron weaponry. The fact they drain suns to refuel doesnt help either!

Nightsbane - fair enough, your "contributions" have been...enlightening.

Modquisition on:
Carry on people. Private warnings have been sent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yes, we know Geller fields are EM based, the generators for them are mentioned repeatedly as being normal machines PLUS they exist preNavigator gene, as they are necessary for even short trips (unless you want your trip to be *really* short. Or long, depending on which god takes a fancy..) - same for Void shields, which definitely exist without a psychic (none on oard titans, and they were not maintained by any psykers on the Gas mining city when the blood pact used them as a trap; again, void shield generators are mentioned)

Additionally - are you sure it is magic, and not just "another dimension" properties, aka power derived from the warp? For example "Q" appears to work by "magic" yet they have found an explanation for it, same as for psychics (gene manipulation, ref Khan) and even Galactic barrier (edge and inner - turns out both a "Q" entities" that have been exiled) entities.

So we know Geller fields are generated by a machine, and aren't Navigators. That doesn't actually make them EM, necessarily. For all we know, they run off voodoo. In fact, given the whole WH40k setting, it's entirely probable that they run off voodoo!

As for magic vs. Warp properties, certainly, that's what it is. But my point is that Warp properties ARE effectively magic; effects occuring, which have no visible cause in the real universe. Since the ST universe couldn't use the Warp effectively (I'll deal with that later) they could never find out what would be causing it, either, leaving them pretty much helpless to counter anything Warp-related.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How close is this rifts influence? Remember they have sensors which can pinpoint starships over lightyears of distance. They have probes with small warp drives for extended range.

Again, you have a fundamental gap in understanding of Star Trek technology.

I wasn't suggesting ST ships would have to enter the Warp in order to scan the rift; I was merely stating that they couldn't learn anything of substance except (possibly) how to open a rift without doing so. And learning how to open a rift would just be a bad thing for them.

The area over which a Warp rift has influence is highly variable, depending on the size of the rift, the phase of the moon, and how bored the Chaos gods are at the moment. Not far enough to effect the planet, I would think.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet. The Federation knows of at least 3 psychic races (betazoids, Organians, VUlcans, I would include those from the Pilot however they seem happy to stay on their own planet and not be seen elsewhere) plus immense individuals that may be part of other races (the Traveller, Will Crusher at the end) that could be easily powerful enough to detect something as strnog as the AStronomicon. Again, you are too used to thinking in 40k terms, where nothing of substance changes - this is the antithesis of how trek science works. where change is the norm.

But are they psychic in the same way as the Imperium? And furthermore, have they ever seen the Warp?

You are making a serious of very sketchy claims. First, that the Federation could replicate the ability to open rifts into the Warp. I'll grant that; let's assume that as soon as they see a Warp rift, they analyze it up, down and sideways and figure out how to open their own. "Great!" they say, "Here's a key to the enemy transport system!"

Then they open a Warp rift in a laboratory, to see how it works, and lose a planet (or space station, depending on where the rift was opened) in record time as ravening daemons overrun the scientists. Good job, Starfleet!

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.

Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again, you make a fundamentally incorrect assumption: that it woudl be always unassailble. The Federation already use other dimensions to sense objects (subspace, phase space, etc), are aware of and know how to travel to entirely different universes (Mirror onwards) and even universes that potentially are supersets of our own (Fluidic space, when you read the other books around the subject) - so saying they would be "utterly unable to counter" is a flawed statement - demonstrably so.

Eventually, after years of intensive research and careful analysis and a generations-long breeding program, the Federation MIGHT be able to challenge the Imperium in Warp travel; assuming they had survived that long. However, they can do all the research they want, but no Navigators means no effective Warp travel. Without Navigators, trying to sail the Warp is basically playing Russian roulette.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WOw, again a fundamental lack of understanding of sensor technology. Given that we can detect inert objects (small asteroids) NOW, with basic Radar (essentially, some use of LIDAR and optical occlusion) on objects the size of a MC shell, you really think a race that can detect small ships across LIGHT YEARS would struggle?

That is the worst idea yet, completely bafflingly simple to defeat. Orbital defences. Track and kill. Ballistic trajectories are an awful tactic...

Yes, I do think they would struggle. Why? Because advanced sensor systems are generally designed to detect emissions. So sure, a ship can be detected light-years away; it's broadcasting all sorts of energy on multiple wavelengths, commonly at very high power.

A ballistic explosive shell, by contrast, is broadcasting nothing. If it's black, it's not even reflecting light.

So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion. Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Finally Bezerker - I noticed you failed to concede the point explicitly, but I assume you accept that an event not measured in hours is difficult for a IoM ship to deal with? In otherwords the PM would work in so much as even ASSUMING the psyker can pinpoint a ship travelling at warp (a huge assumption), it could not relay that information to the ship AND have the ship react in any *meaningful* way in time to stop it? Avoiding whether you think the PM would work or not (that is irrelevant) you must still, assuming you have any knowledge of space battles in 40k, that this is a true statement?

No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.

Since Imperial warships have a relatively low speed when not in the Warp, they commonly have hours or days of time before an engagement, that's true. However, once engaged, guns can cycle, engines can fire and orders can be issued within seconds, not hours.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Edit2: Psychic dampeners. They are definitely not "magic" as so could be researched and replicated, range increased etc. SUddeny "but we have psychics!!!!" becomes a rather poor argument. Take away psychics and the imperium REALLY struggles, as they can only make short warp jumps, massively increasing their travel time.

True. But why would they? How would a Starfleet officer even recognize what is happening as "psychic"? As far as I know the use of psychic powers doesn't generate any characteristic energy signature or anything like that. SO what would even turn the minds of Starfleet towards psychic dampeners?

Star Trek people! Read my argument two pages back, where I clearly show that 40k can win . I won't show it for fear of being marked a spammer, but at least try and counter argue my points. If you don't, it's clear 40k have won this

nosferatu1001 wrote:And yes, for the 100th time: THEY HAVE FTL SENSORS. Their sensors, and comms, work on subspace, a region where "normal speed" is faster than light. Hence why their communications are lag free (almost, 9.9999 is as high as a boosted signal gets, so at 10k parsecs you have a small delay) and they can work out what is happening in a system 10 light years away *now*, not 10 years ago. Saying otherwise is laughable. Please, stop it - ignore that flaw in your argument if you want, but please stop repeating the error.

Nosferatu, you still have ignored my point about the lack of use of these FTL sensors in the Stargazer attack against the Enterprise. I don't have time to reelaborate this point, but you have ignored this point again and again in favor of repeating your claim that FTL sensors exist. You need to respond to this point, or else your claim that FTL sensors exist, and are combat effective, is in serious doubt.

I like this thread. I have watched Star Trek with joy in my child/teen years and I really like most of the series.

I don't really want to join the detail discussion, because there's so few hard data about both universes concerning ship-to-ship combat. I'd say we can agree that IoM weaponry generally produces a larger Badaboom than most (!) Star Trek weaponry, but it is slower and less precise. Determining which shielding will be good against what and what kind of maneuver is fast enough to counter what is a difficult thing to do.

I'd try and make up a comparison. Let's say Star Trek technology is really far more advanced than the IoM technology. Then downscale both technologies to something more of our level for this comparison.

Star Trek could be a squad of high-tech equipped modern soldiers, carrying assault rifles with long range, quite effective ammunition and good sighting optics...some grenades, maybe mines, all kind of little gimmicks.

On the other side: IoM. A few thousand determined soldiers, driven by religious zeal, with no real self-preservation kind of thinking. Each of them carries a HUGE big fething gun, although they can't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Additionally, some of them can wield warpcraft...which is, I'd think, a really unclear factor, but it should be mentioned. And remember, these guys are not dumb, they don't necessarily run at the enemy ignoring cover and similar advantages just to get gunned down.


I'd argue that, while the high-tech elite squad will kill dozens and dozens of IoM equivalents, they will, through attrition, eventually make a mistake and lose. Every move they make, every shot they take must be executed perfectly, because if someone gets accidentally hit by a stray round of IoM BFGs he's mincemeat and if they let the lunatics get too close once they'll probably be drowned under the bodies of suicide warriors. Morale might be another thing. Star Trek captains and officers have seen their fair share of troubles, I guess, but I don't think your average captain is prepared to face an onslaught of IoM scale and still is able to give only the perfect order for every situation. I think my basic point is, because the IoM can field huge numbers and has a huge destructive (if unprecise) potential, they need to get lucky only once - while the Star Trek guys need to get lucky all the time and avoid every single mistake to avoid getting butchered by overwhelming numbers, religious zeal and superior firepower.


Postscriptum: A further thing about philosophy and morale. In this conflict, it will probably happen that both sides will get the opportunity of taking hostages of the opposing side.

1. The Federation of Planets is able to capture a few Imperial officers, crewmen, guardsmen, whatever. They worship diplomacy and will probably try to use the hostages to create a cease-fire or to stop the IoM in some kind of way. - Result: Whoever is in charge of the Imperial armada will not think a nanosecond about these hostages. This is the Imperium of Man. The hostages are seen as dead, their deaths will be remembered - all weapons fire. Nothing gained for the Federation of Plantes.

2. The Imperium of Man captures some Starfleet officers or maybe civilians. Cunning IoM generals will use these people as hostages and the humanistic, diplomatic Federation of Planets will try to work out a way to get these hostages back alive. Whatever the deal is: The IoM will not honor it. They regard the FoP as filthy xeno-collaboratists and will use any little advantage they can get and make a trap out of every diplomatic solution worked out. The peace-loving way of the FoP will be their downfall in more than one battle, I think.



Post-postscriptum: I have to stress the point that any kind of ground war is autowon by the Imperium of Man. Numbers, numbers, numbers, morale, morale, morale. Even if Phasers are something like S5 AP4, that doesn't help against whole regiments being thrown at the enemy with the iron will of the commissars behind this.

I can just imagine this...the last surviving, scared-to-death starfleet Ensign left of the whole starfleet outpost is standing, weaponless and shivering, on the edge of the burning central command post, surrounded by guardsmen. The a huge commissar walks up to the dude, who goes "This...this is madness!" The commissar stops for a second, asks "Madness?", turns to the next NCO and back before screaming "THIS...IS...THE MAILED FIST OF THE EMPEROR!" and putting three bolt rounds in quick succession through the chest of the poor Ensing.

I'm not sure about space combat, but you have to agree that ground combat would be a terrible, terrible one-sided thing.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Nosferatu, you still have ignored my point about the lack of use of these FTL sensors in the Stargazer attack against the Enterprise. I don't have time to reelaborate this point, but you have ignored this point again and again in favor of repeating your claim that FTL sensors exist. You need to respond to this point, or else your claim that FTL sensors exist, and are combat effective, is in serious doubt.

Sorry, apparently youy cannot do your own 2 second google?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sensor

Note the types of scans: subspace is an area where "normal" is defined as being Faster than our light speed. Ref subspace communications.

Secondly "tachyon" - you know, those things that are faster than light?

BeRzErKeR wrote:So we know Geller fields are generated by a machine, and aren't Navigators. That doesn't actually make them EM, necessarily. For all we know, they run off voodoo. In fact, given the whole WH40k setting, it's entirely probable that they run off voodoo!

No, they do not run off voodoo. they are one of the earliest creations. So no, they are normal EM based systems, as NOWHERE in 40k do they mention anything other than "normal" power generation - eveen plasma reactors still generate "electricity"

BeRzErKeR wrote:As for magic vs. Warp properties, certainly, that's what it is. But my point is that Warp properties ARE effectively magic; effects occuring, which have no visible cause in the real universe. Since the ST universe couldn't use the Warp effectively (I'll deal with that later) they could never find out what would be causing it, either, leaving them pretty much helpless to counter anything Warp-related.

Um, Q. Q is, in essence, magic. Doesnt stop them from learning about the Q continuum now, does it?

You are assuming no rational explanation exists - however given that psychic dampeners work on normal EM principles it is *highly highly* unlikely that this property is as magtical as you believe.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I wasn't suggesting ST ships would have to enter the Warp in order to scan the rift; I was merely stating that they couldn't learn anything of substance except (possibly) how to open a rift without doing so. And learning how to open a rift would just be a bad thing for them.

The same methods used to open the rift are those used to close the rifts behind the craft. Same principles. DO you see any value in being able to close rifts as they open? I cant....

BeRzErKeR wrote:The area over which a Warp rift has influence is highly variable, depending on the size of the rift, the phase of the moon, and how bored the Chaos gods are at the moment. Not far enough to effect the planet, I would think.

So FTL sensors on a machine body (no nice unprotected minds to influence) would have afield day. literally

BeRzErKeR wrote:But are they psychic in the same way as the Imperium? And furthermore, have they ever seen the Warp?

Well here you have to assume psychic == psychic, in the same way you have to assume EM = EM, otherwise there is no point of contact. Why would they have seent he warp int eh ST universe? Again, observation would be the key - they would not innately know it, however would deduce it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:You are making a serious of very sketchy claims. First, that the Federation could replicate the ability to open rifts into the Warp. I'll grant that; let's assume that as soon as they see a Warp rift, they analyze it up, down and sideways and figure out how to open their own. "Great!" they say, "Here's a key to the enemy transport system!"

Then they open a Warp rift in a laboratory, to see how it works, and lose a planet (or space station, depending on where the rift was opened) in record time as ravening daemons overrun the scientists. Good job, Starfleet!

Normally these are carried out on space stations. So what if they lose a space station? At least they would learn from it. The IoM would rerun it a couple times, just to be sure!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.

Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.

I just thought I would leave my quote in there: your "wrong" has NOTHING to do with what I wrote, please Reread. I stated that ENTERING AND LEAVING THE WARP does not require psykers. THIS IS TRUE. Yes, that means you can only make limited use of the warp....and? All they need to do is be able to peer into it to see your "invisible ships". Which they could do. In an automated fashion as they have competent systems...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Eventually, after years of intensive research and careful analysis and a generations-long breeding program, the Federation MIGHT be able to challenge the Imperium in Warp travel; assuming they had survived that long. However, they can do all the research they want, but no Navigators means no effective Warp travel. Without Navigators, trying to sail the Warp is basically playing Russian roulette.

You miss the point *again*t: they do not need to challenge the imperium in warp travel, they have a superior method of travel already.

All they need to do is peer enough into the imaterium to see your "invisible2 ships coming. and close the rifts on them - preferably with the ship coming through.

BeRzErKeR wrote:A ballistic explosive shell, by contrast, is broadcasting nothing. If it's black, it's not even reflecting light.

And? It is a HUGE chunk of nice, highly dense metal. Do you have any idea how reflective these are? We can detect carbon black asteroids (dirty balls) which have very low radar reflection *now* - and you think that a MC shell, which DOES have active components (it has active electronics for the fuse, for a start) couldnt be detected by a race that can detetrmine what the interior of a star is doing. really?

BeRzErKeR wrote:So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion.

So the HUGE BATTLECRUISER dropping out of warp inside the planetary system, waiting while it makes planetary measurements (remember, it has to be exact) including noting any major asteroids (as the tug from them woudl be enough to alter the course of the ballistic missile) which it HAS to do using active sensors (ie HERE I AM!!! LOOK AT ME!!!) wouldnt be noticed?

Seriously, I assume you are now kidding - this isnt exactly well thought out now, is it?

BeRzErKeR wrote: Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.

And as I pointed out you have picked one method (occlusion) and decided that was the only way to detect them. they have sensitive mass sensors to read the local gravitational flux, a *by your own admission* HUGE MC shell really, really wouldnt be an issue.

So, as I said - a n entirely naive suggestion that, if only due to our supposed lack of space borne weaponry, is barely effective now, never mind 400 years time. They have functional and repeatable time travel and interuniverse travel. 40k has biiig ships.

BeRzErKeR wrote:No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.

Yes - however how fast does the ship move out of the way in that time? Again, look at BFG, note the rules on manouvering ships - a 5KM long ship, with no interia supressing mechanisms, does NOT change direction quickly. Not at all.

Which is the point - it has to avoid the incoming, faster than light torpedo (whcih they cannot see) as you cannot shoot something you cannot see - and to change direction in any significant way does *not* happen in 0.1 seconds. Please, PLEASE have a look at BFG to see how complex manouvering is, given how far ahead you have to think. Even eldar ships cannot turn as fast as fed ships are shown to.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Since Imperial warships have a relatively low speed when not in the Warp, they commonly have hours or days of time before an engagement, that's true. However, once engaged, guns can cycle, engines can fire and orders can be issued within seconds, not hours.

Sigh, again you miss the point. I did not say the order could not be issued (although the psyker, even making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that it can see a ship at warp *and* pinpoint its velocity precisely enough, which you still have as a major assumption thatt you neatly gloss over) it would just be the amount of time to react *meaningfullY* would not be enough. the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships.

BeRzErKeR wrote:True. But why would they? How would a Starfleet officer even recognize what is happening as "psychic"? As far as I know the use of psychic powers doesn't generate any characteristic energy signature or anything like that. SO what would even turn the minds of Starfleet towards psychic dampeners?

See above. Psychic power in the 40k universe can be damped by an EM field generator of some kind, therefore CAN be detected by sensitive enough sensors. You assume a level of incuriousity of their surroundings that does not match ST fluff at all - they are the very opposite in fact, curious to the point of lunacy at times.

nosferatu1001 wrote: No, they do not run off voodoo. they are one of the earliest creations. So no, they are normal EM based systems, as NOWHERE in 40k do they mention anything other than "normal" power generation - eveen plasma reactors still generate "electricity"

Hardly comprehensive proof.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Um, Q. Q is, in essence, magic. Doesnt stop them from learning about the Q continuum now, does it?

If "been told things by Q" is what you mean by "learned about the Q continuum", then sure. But Daemons aren't about to explain the workings of the Warp to Starfleet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well here you have to assume psychic == psychic, in the same way you have to assume EM = EM, otherwise there is no point of contact. Why would they have seent he warp int eh ST universe? Again, observation would be the key - they would not innately know it, however would deduce it.

Why, exactly, would Star Trek psychic be the same thing as 40k psychic? In Star Trek, for one thing, people with psychic abilities aren't usually taken over by horrific beings from another dimension and used as unwilling portals to devour entire worlds. That's fairly indicative of some difference.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, as I pointed out: leaving and entering the Warp does NOT require Psykers. It cannot do otherwise the Tau wouldnt be able to utilise it. So the *first time* an IoM ship leaves the warp the field generator used would be examined (again, fluff shows it remains operational until you are fully out of the warp), at distance, the effects noted and analysed.

Wrong. The lack of psykers is EXACTLY why the T'au can make only the most limited use of the Warp. Only a very specially trained psyker can see within the Warp, so anyone else (ie Starfleet) would just be flailing around blind. They'd be like someone wearing a blindfold paddling a rowboat made of raw steak through the Caribbean; shark food.

I just thought I would leave my quote in there: your "wrong" has NOTHING to do with what I wrote, please Reread. I stated that ENTERING AND LEAVING THE WARP does not require psykers. THIS IS TRUE. Yes, that means you can only make limited use of the warp....and? All they need to do is be able to peer into it to see your "invisible ships". Which they could do. In an automated fashion as they have competent systems...

You're forgetting something. The psyker is the only person who can SEE into the Warp. So no, Starfleet couldn't "peer into it". All they could do would be to open a rift (once again, even assuming they got that far), and stare stupidly into something they can't make heads nor tails of.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You miss the point *again*t: they do not need to challenge the imperium in warp travel, they have a superior method of travel already.

All they need to do is peer enough into the imaterium to see your "invisible2 ships coming. and close the rifts on them - preferably with the ship coming through.

See above; "peering into" the Warp is flatly impossible without a Navigator, and the Federation does not have access to the Navigator gene. As I said, perhaps they could develop it. . . but not without years and years of time, time which they wouldn't really have.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And? It is a HUGE chunk of nice, highly dense metal. Do you have any idea how reflective these are? We can detect carbon black asteroids (dirty balls) which have very low radar reflection *now* - and you think that a MC shell, which DOES have active components (it has active electronics for the fuse, for a start) couldnt be detected by a race that can detetrmine what the interior of a star is doing. really?

We can. . . if we're really, really lucky. Nobody knows how many NEOs (near-Earth objects) exist, because we can never be sure we've found them all. The best guesstimates are currently that we won't find even 90% of them for at least another decade. Why? Because occlusion IS, inf act, the only way to find a small, non-radiating body. It won't show up well on radar, it won't show up well on lidar, it's small (by stellar standards) which means anything you DO try to paint it with will invariably miss unless you know exactly where it is and how fast it's moving, which you CAN'T know until you find it in the first place!

As for "mass sensors", the gravitational effect of an object perhaps 50 meters across is so tiny that I cannot imagine it could be detected at interplanetary distances. Particularly not given that this is taking place in a solar system full of much, much, much bigger objects.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:So first off, Starfleet probably wouldn't even know the IoM fleet had done anything unless someone, by random chance, happened to notice an occlusion.

So the HUGE BATTLECRUISER dropping out of warp inside the planetary system, waiting while it makes planetary measurements (remember, it has to be exact) including noting any major asteroids (as the tug from them woudl be enough to alter the course of the ballistic missile) which it HAS to do using active sensors (ie HERE I AM!!! LOOK AT ME!!!) wouldnt be noticed?

Oh, the ship might well be noticed; please do recall that on a planetary scale, even the largest starship is a very, very small object. Still, Starfleet has good sensors, so assuming they were watching for it it would probably be noticed. But what it's doing? Not easy to determine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: Second, they wouldn't know how many shells had been launched, or what they were; nuclear, antimatter, plasma, etc; which means they would have to get ALL of them. . . and of course, they don't know how many that is. They would have to find each and every single one by occlusion, meaning a computer with telescopes, then intercept them all and shoot them all down. Depending on how many ships are in the area and how many shells were fired, that could easily be completely impossible.

And as I pointed out you have picked one method (occlusion) and decided that was the only way to detect them. they have sensitive mass sensors to read the local gravitational flux, a *by your own admission* HUGE MC shell really, really wouldnt be an issue.

So, as I said - a n entirely naive suggestion that, if only due to our supposed lack of space borne weaponry, is barely effective now, never mind 400 years time. They have functional and repeatable time travel and interuniverse travel. 40k has biiig ships.

Lots of false statements here.

1. Occlusion is, in fact, basically the only method. On an interplanetary scale, if something isn't radiating or reflecting light, it might as well not be there. We've found a lot of asteroids only because we were specifically looking for them, and we knew basically where they would be. Without those advantages (a defined target and a search zone), finding an object of this kind is simply a crapshoot. Even WITH those advantages it's a crapshoot, just with slightly better odds.

2. A gravitational sensor would be worth exactly jack squat. A 50m diameter antimatter-armed shell is huge, and would suffice to do serious damage to anything is struck, including Earth itself. But on an interplanetary scale, it's so small that its gravitational effects are entirely negligible.

3. If you're talking about modern-day, an attack of this kind would obliterate half the planet (whichever hemisphere happened to be facing the bombardment) and probably wipe out every satellite in orbit. Against Federation Earth, the damage would be significantly mitigated - after all, the Federation would catch some of them - but would still probably suffice to deal a crippling blow to Starfleet command and control, and well as destroy any ships that happened to be in orbit when the bombardment struck.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:No, I don't accept that, because it's not correct. For instance, in Legion, when the battle-barge Beta attacks the Imperial warfleet, the fighting occurs on a time-scale of seconds.

Yes - however how fast does the ship move out of the way in that time? Again, look at BFG, note the rules on manouvering ships - a 5KM long ship, with no interia supressing mechanisms, does NOT change direction quickly. Not at all.

Which is the point - it has to avoid the incoming, faster than light torpedo (whcih they cannot see) as you cannot shoot something you cannot see - and to change direction in any significant way does *not* happen in 0.1 seconds. Please, PLEASE have a look at BFG to see how complex manouvering is, given how far ahead you have to think. Even eldar ships cannot turn as fast as fed ships are shown to.

Sigh, again you miss the point. I did not say the order could not be issued (although the psyker, even making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that it can see a ship at warp *and* pinpoint its velocity precisely enough, which you still have as a major assumption thatt you neatly gloss over) it would just be the amount of time to react *meaningfullY* would not be enough. the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships.

In Legion the attack is an ambush; in a matter of seconds, the Beta moves into the center of the Imperial fleet and tears it to ribbons. So yes, it moves quite fast. Not as fast as Federation ships, but not exactly lumbering, either.

You say "the ship would have to displace its position by quite a lot to avoid the torpedo. You try doing that with teratonnage ships." And I say, sure, if I have proportional engine power. In space, size DOES NOT MATTER. The ONLY thing that matters is the proportion of thrust to mass. Imperial ships have huge engines; why couldn't they turn rapidly?

Perhaps the disconnect is in our views of BFG. I view a BFG turn as being perhaps 15-30 seconds long. The starships in question are moving hundreds of thousands of kilometers a minute, exchanging volleys of fire at ranges of several planetary diameters, and turning extremely quickly. On a dime? No. But they're not lumbering, either. Because, I repeat, in space size does not matter. The biggest ship in the universe can turn as quickly as the smallest, given a powerful enough engine; and if there's one thing the Imperial Navy has in plenty, it's power.

@ nosferatu1001: Give me a reason to believe that FTL travel is possible for anything INSIDE this dimension, there are several but I won't make it that easy for you, and I'll give you at least three reasons it isn't. I liked ST growing up to, but the more I learned about actual science the more I lost interest in Gene Rodenberry. PM me if you want I'm interested in this on an academic level.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Sorry, apparently youy cannot do your own 2 second google?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sensor

Note the types of scans: subspace is an area where "normal" is defined as being Faster than our light speed. Ref subspace communications.

Secondly "tachyon" - you know, those things that are faster than light?

I was rather rushed this morning Nosferatu, and I'm not perfect at this, so I didn't even think about using google. t to find me a situation where

But, alright. The Federation has FTL sensors....but so what? The episode with the Stargazer CLEARLY shows that the use of FTL sensors is not practical in a ship to ship combat situation. You have yet to provide a counter example to this damning piece of evidence.

Additionally, on the morale issue, we have to note the way Federation views the deaths of its officers and crew, and not to mention the level of training each individual Starfleet officer has. How many times have we seen the head of the ship itself take personal notice of the death of even a small number of crewmen under his or her command? Not to mention the way the Federation's culture is shaped to try and save every life it can. On the other hand, the Imperium will spend life as it needs, and not care about the loss of life.

Not to mention, each and every crewmen seems to have gone to Starfleet Academy. Even NCOs like Chief O'Brien went to the Academy. The sheer amount of resources that the Federation spends on even a basic crewman shows that they'd burn through their existing crew quickly, and would almost have zero hope of replacing their losses in a short amount of time without crewing their vessels with untrained crew members. Given the tempermentality of Trek ships....one would think keeping inexperienced crew on board would result in the ship being destroyed somehow before even making it to battle!

Bezerker:

1) Nothing you have stated even *approaches* persuasive, never mind conclusive, proof. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Geller fields, et al, all use conventional electricity. Now it is up to you to find something I0M based using nonstandard electricity and maybe, just maybe, cite some actual "evidence" yourself, hmm?

Right, now we have the "conclusive proof" bullcrap out the way, which is a hilariously bad argument to make about two fictional scifi universes meeting and what would happen....

2) VOyager et al told them a lot more about the Q area, plus there were th books afterwards...again, you base your assumptions from incomplete nkowledge.

3) So if you displace IoM universe into ST timeline, someone in the ST lot would be 40K-psychic.

Hence why the two terms are interchangeable - it may not be the same races in both "universes", but that is irrelevant.

And again, you ignore that anti=psyker stuff is created using standard EM based generators. Meaning that the effects must be detectable. If they can be detected they can be analysed, replicated and, because this is ST and it is what they DO improved on. Say, system wide anti=psyker fields. Love to see you navigate at that point!

4) Again, invalid assumptions wreck your argument. It is 40k canon that psykers can be defeated using normal, EM based machines. Guess what the Feds are really, really good at doing?

5) You contradict yourself.

Occlusion is NOT the only way to find a NEO, as you yourself state - and it is only carbonaceous asteroids that show up badly on radar. Oddly enough something made of dense metal alloys would show up brilliantly well. Especially to sensors that can detect dark matter. Average baryonic matter is millions of times more "visible" than dark matter...and anything moving in an earth intercept orbit would trigger alarms - remember, you only have limited orbits which can intercept earth BEFORE all those pertubations rweck your shot.

6) "The ship may be noticed"?

Right, you do know what ACTIVE sensors mean? Radar/Lidar/etc all screaming "LOOK AT ME, IM A BIG ENERGY SOURCE THAT HAS JUST APPEARED IN YOUR SYSTEM! IM OVER HERE!" - the point is they dont NEED to be "looking" for your ship, as your ship does the equivalent of walking up to your front door and leaning on the door bell while blowing an air horn.

Quiet it aint.

7) You assume a graviational sensor is worth squat - which is a false assumption. A sensitive enough sensor with enough range WOULD notice a nice, dense lump of metal moving through space. Its path is noted, fractions of a nanosecond later the intersect path is noted and an alarm raised, and automated defenses kill it.

And remember - tehy WOULD know something is going on, because a) they can see the ship that is laying them and b) they can see the ship that is laying them. Meaning the origin points are well known, the ship wouldnt get time to lay many before FTL ships say hello, and the orbits of each ballistic object would be known from the trajectory they were given at launch.

So you have two major flaws in your naive "tactic" - 1) the ship WILL be noticed, see above and 2) the trajectory of each will be noted as they can see the ship launching the projectiles.

Never mind that they DO have sensitive enough sensors to find them EVEN IF they didnt have the advantage (which they would have) of seeing the ship launching them.

Ready to concede your error on this "tactic" and move on? Or will you dismis it as "well, the ship MAY be seen..."

8) The Beta was moving wsith higher relative velocity. Higher relative velocity does not imply more manoueverable.

Additionally you lack understanding of intertia and its effects. Size DOES matter as momentum is geometric....and you certainly CANNOT alter your "relative" position by sufficient amounts to miss an "FTL" projectile which has more advanced guidance in its warhead than your entire ship has.

And you STILL ASSUME that your psykers could see the ship in both positions, one while a ship is in FTL, AND determine the positions accurately enough AND relay an order quickly enough AND have a ship that can magically ignore interia to quickly shift its relative position by sufficjent that a highly intelligent FTL warhead would miss striking the 5KM long ship.

Phew, and you say my assumptions are invalid? Please provide some evidence that pskyers can detect a ship travelling at ST:Warp accurately enough to give a meaningful order - given the known imprecision of 40k psychic powers. [I assume you know how imprecise even a simple Astropathic message is, yes? Never mind something as complicated as 4D positioning of an FTL object]

ChrisWWII - no, it shows that IN THIS INSTANCE it was not practical. However that is utterly, 100% irrelevant: the ship with FTL sensors AND FTL drive is the one attacking the 40k ship.

It is the 40K ship that needs to be able to see the ST ship, not the other way around.

Show how a ship without FTL sensors would "see" a ship travelling FTL firing a projectile that is also travelling FTL, and react quickly enough.

In fact your evidence that *even* a ship WITH FTL sensors would struggle against this type of attack is damning on the 40k side, no?

[The reason they struggled in ST? Apart from the obvious narrative plot lines? Who knows. It reeks of narrative plot though - and NOT conclusive proof either way. Especially it being season 1 and all which is hardly ever considered a reliable "canon" source in any show, as they like to change their mind too often]

Yes, there is a crew issue - hwoever you are still assuming there would be massive casualties that would need replacing, when you have yet to explain HOW the 40k ships would a) see and b) hit a target moving at FTL speeds...explain HOW you get casualties (apart from the usual "transporter system blows up because having transporters would be inconvenient right now" that the writers of ST use, the lazy gits!*) then we can move onto HOW the feds would respond.

Given they do have some form of forced learning systems (picards lifetime in another body, reg barclays fun and games with the holodeck, etc) it is possible they would use them - or just find a way to make the Deflector Dish do all the work.

*seriously, the perceived fragility of ST ships seems to be more likely narrative convenience - the likelhood of the transporters being down JUST when they would instantly, qickoly and without tension resolve the situation seems to approach 100%

Wait, what is this EM anti psyker tech of wich you speak? The Geller fields? Thats proposterous! if they were anti-psycic feilds, navigators and astropaths aboard ships would be useless, and my guard would have one bolted to a tank.

sniperjolly - Black Ships have them, as does Eisenhorn and sort of Ciaphus (his sidekick is a null and has a machine whcih damps this effect out).

Null rods do the same, if you have a WH/DH codex handy (certainly in WH, I would imagine!)

Both are based on standard power generation (as no nonstandard power generation is ever mentioned, its all quite dull - plasma reactors seem to be some form of fusion, other than that its all fairly "normal" sounding)

They are certainly not common, and occasionally they fail (Black Ships which lose containment) suggesting either an upper limit on their ability to dampen in toto, or jsut that machine ran out of power to damp the psyker where a more powerful machine / power supply would have done the job.

Geller fields are what protect starships from the warp, and are again standard machines - they cannot be "psychic" based as a) that would be a bad thing in the warp and b) exist in non-psychic societies (Tau) and pre-Navigator gene (Human empire pre Dark Age of tech) and again there is no evidence that these have a weird power source that is unfathomable in this universe.

The point is that, given the many possible ways the Feds would become aware of either / both devices, and their functions, and the Feds ability to take onedevice, reverse engineer and improve on it, having the Warp as your big "I retreat here" button may not work for very long - never mind that the tech to open / close rifts to the Immaterium is also based on this-universe technology so could also be stolen by the Feds and used against IoM.

It would be interesting to see if they could either prevent warp rifts from opening (entirely possible, happened ina recent BL novel with a chaos fleet, think it was the curretn Word Bearers novel) or, more destructively, closing the rift while the IoM ship is still exiting. I dont know of any fluff wher this has happened, however I cant imagine the ship survived. Morally a *tad* dubious, but they have tainted their ethics previously to defeat big bads.

Power levels aside for a minute... The difference between the UFP and the Imperium boils down to the fact that the UFP relies on education, and the Imperium relies on indoctrination. As a result, when confronted with a problem which requires solving, the UFP will attempt to come to a solution by pooling expertise and applying their knowledge. Once solved, this information would be shared across the UFP. Technological innovations can be easily applied using the UFP's molecular replication technology. Granted, the UFP's range of possible actions is limited by its code of ethics, and many problems can not be solved the UFP's current level of technological capability - however, they will try, and learn from the effort. The Imperium, on the other hand, would consult doctrine. Should doctrine fail to provide a prescribed solution - the Imperium invariably resolves the situation by successive applications in force. Deviations from doctrine usually result in execution. As a result, any unsuccessful innovations do not provide any learning opportunities, other than an object lesson that innovations are not tolerated. Technological knowledge is jealously guarded and not shared.

Based on the above observations - I am forced to conclude that while the Imperium could bring enough force to completely annihilate the UFP in one stroke - should they fail to do this, they will have lost their biggest advantage, as the remnants of the UFP are able to learn from each defeat and may formulate a successful counter strategy. The Imperium on the other hand, should they fail in the intial engagement (definitely possible if their strength at first contact is small), will have ceeded vital inteligence on their technology to the UFP, leaving only the option of attacking in greater force against a numerically inferior, but prepared enemy.

Indoctrination is no substitute for education.