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keezus wrote:Power levels aside for a minute... The difference between the UFP and the Imperium boils down to the fact that the UFP relies on education, and the Imperium relies on indoctrination. As a result, when confronted with a problem which requires solving, the UFP will attempt to come to a solution by pooling expertise and applying their knowledge. Once solved, this information would be shared across the UFP. Technological innovations can be easily applied using the UFP's molecular replication technology. Granted, the UFP's range of possible actions is limited by its code of ethics, and many problems can not be solved the UFP's current level of technological capability - however, they will try, and learn from the effort. The Imperium, on the other hand, would consult doctrine. Should doctrine fail to provide a prescribed solution - the Imperium invariably resolves the situation by successive applications in force. Deviations from doctrine usually result in execution. As a result, any unsuccessful innovations do not provide any learning opportunities, other than an object lesson that innovations are not tolerated. Technological knowledge is jealously guarded and not shared.

Based on the above observations - I am forced to conclude that while the Imperium could bring enough force to completely annihilate the UFP in one stroke - should they fail to do this, they will have lost their biggest advantage, as the remnants of the UFP are able to learn from each defeat and may formulate a successful counter strategy. The Imperium on the other hand, should they fail in the intial engagement (definitely possible if their strength at first contact is small), will have ceeded vital inteligence on their technology to the UFP, leaving only the option of attacking in greater force against a numerically inferior, but prepared enemy.

Indoctrination is no substitute for education.

A fair conclusion if you ask me.
Just a slight note, the Imperium doesn't rely completely on doctrine. New stuff like the Tyranids and Necrons have forced them to innovate their tactics to each enemy. The problem of course, as ever, lies with the Imperium's relative reluctance to do so unless the threat is considered great enough for it to be necessary. That's their biggest problem in such a hypothetical war, besides the cumbersome nature of their fighting machines.
The UFP, on the other hand, have their own drawbacks, such as numerical inferiority (although as pointed out most ably by Nosferatu, they have ways to lessen the impact of such a disadvantage) and most critically the reluctance to take casualties. This, I think would cost them most, as history has proven that such a reluctance can cost armies wars. If they could overcome this, then I think the war itself would be even, as the huge mass of the Imperial war machine meets the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the UFP. I think there is no point in discussing the results of a ground battle, as I don't think the Federation has a standing planetary military force. I could be wrong though.

Couldn't help using the term "Imperial War Machine," it just sounds so damn cool.

In addition, I think there is no point in discussing the results of a ground battle, as I don't think the Federation has a standing planetary military force, as that is not what they are about. I could be wrong though.
What do you think, Nosferatu? You're the trekkie expert here.

Gorskar: That's true. The Federation has no standing ground army other than whatever away teams orbiting vessels may deploy. If the Imperium gets a significant foothold on any UFP planet....you can be sure that planet will fall.

Nosferatu: =facepalm= ok....you can not say that because there is a narrative drama function involved that Federation vessels are magically much more powerful than they appear on screen, or their technology will suddenly preform much more reliably. if the teleporters have a failure rate of x% in the narrative, they have a failure rate of x% for the purposes of our discussion. if the ship's hull can take y amount of damage in the story line, then the ship can take y amount of damage in this discussion. If you have a problem with the amount of power a Federation ship has in the story line, too bad. It has that amount of power in this discussion, and it will not gain more because 'the story makes it weaker for drama.'

Additionally, your canon argument? =facepalm= If it happened on TV it's canon! That is Paramount's canon policy and that is this discussion's canon policy! You can't say, "Oh. It happened in Season 1 so it doesn't count." It happened on TV, and it is a true judgement of the combat ability of Federation FTL sensors. It clearly shows that Federation FTL sensors are ineffective even against an obsolete vessel compared to the Enterprise. If the Federation's FTL sensors don't even work against an obsolete one of their ships, I believe we can declare them combat ineffective.

ChrisWWII wrote:Gorskar: That's true. The Federation has no standing ground army other than whatever away teams orbiting vessels may deploy. If the Imperium gets a significant foothold on any UFP planet....you can be sure that planet will fall.

Nosferatu: =facepalm= ok....you can not say that because there is a narrative drama function involved that Federation vessels are magically much more powerful than they appear on screen, or their technology will suddenly preform much more reliably. if the teleporters have a failure rate of x% in the narrative, they have a failure rate of x% for the purposes of our discussion. if the ship's hull can take y amount of damage in the story line, then the ship can take y amount of damage in this discussion. If you have a problem with the amount of power a Federation ship has in the story line, too bad. It has that amount of power in this discussion, and it will not gain more because 'the story makes it weaker for drama.'

Additionally, your canon argument? =facepalm= If it happened on TV it's canon! That is Paramount's canon policy and that is this discussion's canon policy! You can't say, "Oh. It happened in Season 1 so it doesn't count." It happened on TV, and it is a true judgement of the combat ability of Federation FTL sensors. It clearly shows that Federation FTL sensors are ineffective even against an obsolete vessel compared to the Enterprise. If the Federation's FTL sensors don't even work against an obsolete one of their ships, I believe we can declare them combat ineffective.

however as the seasons of star trek next gen went on so too did the time line and improvements could have been made to those sensors

ChrisWWII - so when later series contradict "canon", what do you do? Go "lalala"?

You also entirely, 101%, missed the point - THE IMPERIUM ARE THE ONES BEING HIT BY THE PM.

OK?

Understand?

So the relative abiltiy of Trek ships to spot OTHER trek ships moving at FTL is entirely *irrelevant* to the discussion. Because it is NOT a trek ship but an IoM ship that is trying to detect the Trek ship! I will say that again: you have "proven" that the PM is effective even with FTL sensors - so IoM ships without FTL sensors are even more vulnerable, surely?

And the IoM has NO FTL sensor capable of detecting a ship moving in Warp, and even *if* you can decide that a psyker can detect the ship (arbitrary as that is, you have no evidence or rationale to determine that) the IoM ships cannot change their relative positions quickly enough (fractions of a second) to avoid an inteliigently guided missile moving at speeds much greater than c. They dont have the technology.

In addition - first season enterprise D? I raise you Enterprise E. Plus the D went through a sensor refit mid series run - and as nothing tried the PM again you have nothing to say if this helps or not. In otherwords, even if it WERE relevant to the discussion you "evidence" is sorely lacking.


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The feds definitely dont maintain a standing ground force - UFP worlds dont really have a military, just Starfleet. So yes, any successful ground incursion would be game over.

However, as stated: the "sit at the edge of space and fire ballistic warheads" tactic is frankly awful, the ships would need to get closer - from days/weeks out (depending on the warp routes) giving the feds PLENTY of time to uttterly wreck the ships.

have always wondered why the Picard maneuver is at all effective since it can be defeated with a simple logic exercise.

The point of the maneuver is to warp to point blank range and open fire and somehow confuse your enemy with your ship seeming to be in two places at once but these two places will be one at a distance and one point blank, hummm.. perhaps just maybe I should shoot at that one that's at point blank range and just so happens to be in the exact trajectory from which the ship could have moved to by use of warp drive.

Or hell with sufficient firepower I could just fire at both and it dies whichever one it is.

The only reason why the Federation would win.... Period.

Confessor - there is no requirement to be "point blank", just launch frmo a position the enemy doesnt know you are in.

When it was first actually used the Ferengi ship had no subspace sensors, so as far as it was concerned the federation vessel was at point "X", far enough away that light would take a few seconds to give there. So their defences were focussed where the attack could come from - all power to front shields, for example.

If you can jump to warp and quickly enough move to a new position, then fire, the light-speed reliant ship will not be aware you have moved - or at least it will look like you are still in the other place, if you move quickly enough, and so you are "in" two places at "once".

From the new position you can then strike without the full defences being arrayed against you.

With IoM ships this is even easier, as they have no way to move quickly - no intertial suppression meaning that changing relative position quickly just isnt happening. And as mentioned you can make it even more effective by launching torps while at warp, so you never even appear to the IoM ships - the first they know they are under attack is when your carefully timed warheads hit the engine plasma reactors / storage vessels / Novacannon warhead storage and rip your ship into atoms.

The technological difference is overwhelmingly in favuor of the feds - and if they get their nanite buddies involved (or jsut general grey goo, no need for it to be self aware) they dont even need to use explosives - just eat the ships as they make their approach. Again, target something critical and highly likely to blow up.

ChrisWWII - one final fallacy you commit. You cannot asign a %age reliability figure as you base it on incomplete data. At best you know that X occurences of Y failure occurred, but as no series ever tells a complete timeline, including the boring bits, you have no concept of the *overall* reliability of key systems. The best you know is the efficiency of the engines / sensors / plasma relays in the willy waving contest LaForge was having with another engineer one episode. Unless you have some stats on reliabilty you want to share?

Nosferatu & Tyrae: In all honesty, Occam's Razor. You have made the claim that the Enterprise underwent a refit of some kind, or that Federation technology has advanced enough to make FTL sensors effective in combat, well...please show me the episode or manual where it demonstrates this, as at the last demonstration of Federation FTL sensor technology, it was completely combat ineffective.

And Nosferatu, if later canon comes along and displaces earlier canon then fine. The newest canon is the new truth, and we ignore the old canon and take up the new one. However, on the issue of Federation FTL technology, there has been no canon to demonstrate that their FTL sensors have advanced beyond what we saw in the Stargazer episode, and we must therefore use that baseline. The second we hear Data, Janeway or someone mention the Picard Maneuver being thwarted by FTL sensors, then sure we can assume that Federation FTL sensor tech is now combat effective, but until that happens....we can't.

Not to mention, the primary reason for the PM's success is that the ship using the PM is free to fire all its weapons on the enemy ship in one salvo without being destroyed. Against the standard battles Starfleet seems to fight, which is two ships going nose to nose? That would be VERY effective. However......even assuming the ENTIRITY of Federation Starfleet gathers together, and uses the maneuver on an Imperial Fleet, and each Federation ship utterly destroys its target, what happens? The Federation ships have to reload their torpedoes, recharge their phasers.....and the dozens of surviving Imperial ships obliterate the Federation fleet with point blank lance and weapon batteries fire. Sure, the PM could be used to win minor skirmishes (like the 'Battle' of Maxia where it was invented) but it's use in a major, decisive battle would be inconsequential. That's why we don't see it used in large scale Federation battles, as regardless of whether or not either side has FTL sensors, the PM is obviously suicide when used in a pitched battle instead of a small skirmish.

Another point that I have yet to bring up is the point of fighters and bombers. The Imperium uses them, and the Federation does not. Even if the Feds pound the ships of the Imperial battle line to dust, the bombers and fighters will tear the Federation Fleet to shreds. Why? Because we saw at the Battle of DS9 (the one where the Federation fleet is trying to stop the Dominion from opening the wormhole, as there are as many battles of DS9 as there are Imperial Guardsman ), fighters are able to avoid capital ship level weapons, and even in a one on one confrontation such as the Defiant vs. the Lakota....we saw how much difficulty the Lakota had in striking the Defiant, a target about the same size as an Imperial bomber. While they WOULD suffer losses (perhaps 100% if they lose their base ships)....Imperial bombers would be able to destroy Federation ships and kill large numbers of Starfleet crewmen (escape pods = easy target practice for Imperial gunners. ). Without the industrial capacity to rebuild their lost ships, and without the proper volume of warm bodies to replace the losses....Starfleet would slowly but surely crumble.

Of course, you can't forget that if Federation captains are busy plotting courses and weapons fire to kill Imperial fighters and bombers they won't be trying to PM the Imperial cap ships, and if they ignore the fighters and bombers.......well, the point is they're screwed either way. Besides....the Imperium would only need to take one species homeworld, land troops on it, purge it, and I'm betting the Federation would sue for peace.


Edit:
Nosferatu: =sigh= that was WHY i used x% in the first place!!! I have no idea what the actual percentage is, and I can't just make one up, so I put a variable there. Neither of us knows anything about this failure rate except its existence. I wasn't trying to say 'A transporter will fail 28% of the time'. I was trying to point out that transporters DO fail canonically and will not magically work perfectly when the Imperium comes knocking.

Additionally....you do know that it is physically impossible to go into space and manuver without some form of intertial compensator? We know Imperial fighters can manuver like hell, and that cap ships can move at more than a slow drift, so there has to be SOMETHING there countering the Gs. Besides. We know the Imperium has artificial gravity tech. It'd be simple to use that tech to create some form of intertial compensator.

ChrisWWII wrote:We know the Imperium has artificial gravity tech. It'd be simple to use that tech to create some form of intertial compensator.

I assume by that you mean that they already have a STC that peforms that function, as you know what the ol' Mechanicum is like when it comes to inventing.

Also, Nosferatu, although you've made some excellent points, I feel duty-bound to point out that it is highly unlikely that a single photon torpedo would be able to destroy an entire Imperial Battleship. The sheer size of the vessel combined with the hardness of the alloys used to construct them makes that fairly unlikely, especially as we have seen in episodes that photon torpedos do not destroy Trek vessels in one hit (usually) and therefore it would be logical to assume that it would not destroy the Imperial vessel.
In addition, you haven't addressed the mentality of the Federation, that is to say, their humanitarian approach to things and the fact that casualties are a big issue for them, which would be a huge disadvantage when fighting the Imperium due to the Imperium's own "casualties mean nothing" approach to war. I'm sure you have a counter-argument for this, I would just like to hear it.
If you have addressed this issue, then my sincerest apologies.

this is why i support both sides as both sides have advantages. The imperium has numbers and they don't care how many they lose as long as they win. the federation has technology and the means to reproduce captured tech. if you discount the imperiums vast numbers and their methodology towards war the federation does have the advantage both due to their tech and their literal infinite resources because of replicators. in reality wouldn't it be easier for them to make a giant replicator to mass produce ships?

ChrisWWII: Sorry, you still miss the point. Still, despite it being explained very simply.

The ship with the ability to target the non-FTL ship is the Trek ship. There is, at no point, any need to consider FTL Sensor vs FTL sensor - because IoM does not HAVE FTL sensors, and it is the UFP that is using the PM against the IoM, not the other way around.

Your entire line of argument is moot as you are arguing about ships *with* FTL sensors being the target being able to defeat the PM - cant you see that you are arguing the wrnog way around? That in fact you have simply proven the efficacy of the PM againt a ship with no FTL sensors, as even WITH FTL sensors it is "unbeatable"?

IoM: No FTL sensors. No Interial compensation.
ST: FTL sensors. Warp Drive. Inertial Compensation.

ST ships conducts PM. IoM ship cannot see them. IoM shp explodes. Replace "IoM" with "ferengi" and you have the battle of Maxia...

The relative accuracties of FTL sensors is moot, as you KNOW that the PM works in the ST universe, all you are doing is swapping [Ferengi ship without FTL sensors] for [IoM ship without FTL sensors] - the scenario is not any different between the two. Except the IoM ship is easier to hit, of course.

Sensors: Yes, Yes there has. Voyager, for a start, where they work out how to detect non-baryonic matter.

Being destroyed by the fleet: how is the rest of the fleet seeing the ships moving at warp 5? [a nice easy cruising speed] You have yet to address how this happens, at all.

Interial compensation: sorry, please show any canon for ANY form of inertial compensation being used. You claim it is "impossible" (100% provabbly wrong, btw) for them not to have it - but you have not offered any facts. Please do so. Artifical gravity does NOT imply inertia negation, either - and certainly not trivially. Hers some more straws for you.

You also dont seem to get "relative" speeds and agility - a fighter is *relatively* more agile than a batteleship - but then it would be, as inertia increases with the square of the mass (iirc, it shouldnt be cubed anway) meaning the smaller ship has to overcome much less interia, proportionally, than the large ship. It can also reach higher speeds (less mass to accelerate) and so again is a harder target.

The battleships arent moving at a "crawl" (well, compared to c they are, and compared to 1/2c full impulse they are) it is just that relatively they are moving quite slowly - hence days to get to a planetary orbit from a warp jump.

Finally Chris - just noticed you have yet to come up with any more ways to try to make the "ballistic projectile" idea work? Do you now accept that the imperium couldnt "stealth" launch a load of projectiles? At least not with any canon imperium tech of course...

Gorskar - Structural Integrity FIelds. They reinforce the bonds between matter (increasing the electroweak if memory serves) making the matter much, much harder. That is why one torp doesnt make a ship explode.

IoM does NOT have ANY such system, thus a class 6 warhead dialed up to full city busting 200+isotons WOULD do a lot of damage - and if you breach enough plasma reactors the ship is a) dead in the water, no ability to manouver left and b) is likely to explode - there are many instances of this occuring.

[If they get zero point energy warheads (quantum torpedoes) worknig at higher yields you could theroretically one shot the ship...and they would certainly have incentive to do so, if you still disbelieve that "city size" (so, at least 5km) isnt enough]

I HAVE addressed the mentality of the federation, a number of times. I said they would, assuming they make contact first (and with superior sensors this is likely), try the diplomatic route to start- whcih wouldnt work as they would not convert to the imperium. This may, if the Administratum worked quickly enough, be a death sentence for them.

However as has been shown with the reaction to the Tau this is *not* the case - the response time is measured in YEARS, more than enough time to switch to a war footing [see DS9], analyse the first encounter (win or loss they will get SOME info frmo it) and determine weak points. Which they will exploit - that IS canon.

Whether they can bring themselves to perform the wholesale fleet slaughters they would need to do, while converting planets (seriously, give a hive world clean energy and the ability to create, from tht energy, any matter you want and watch them convert over in two seconds flat) is debateable - I reckon Janeway may be hard nosed enough to do it, Picard maybe, and if they ever let 7 get command youc an almost be DAMN sure she would be - well thats the rub. I couldnt predict that, as it is too uncertain.

One thing ISNT uncertain: the ability to fire while at warp is a HUGE advantage that the IoM has no known counter for: psykers MAY be able to locate ships, but likely all they could do is tell you an attack is coming - if you cannot neutralise the incoming torpedoes you wouldnt be any better off, just slightly faster at damage control (if that did you any good)

nosferatu1001 wrote:ChrisWWII - so when later series contradict "canon", what do you do? Go "lalala"?

You also entirely, 101%, missed the point - THE IMPERIUM ARE THE ONES BEING HIT BY THE PM.

OK?

Understand?

So the relative abiltiy of Trek ships to spot OTHER trek ships moving at FTL is entirely *irrelevant* to the discussion. Because it is NOT a trek ship but an IoM ship that is trying to detect the Trek ship! I will say that again: you have "proven" that the PM is effective even with FTL sensors - so IoM ships without FTL sensors are even more vulnerable, surely?

And the IoM has NO FTL sensor capable of detecting a ship moving in Warp, and even *if* you can decide that a psyker can detect the ship (arbitrary as that is, you have no evidence or rationale to determine that) the IoM ships cannot change their relative positions quickly enough (fractions of a second) to avoid an inteliigently guided missile moving at speeds much greater than c. They dont have the technology.

In addition - first season enterprise D? I raise you Enterprise E. Plus the D went through a sensor refit mid series run - and as nothing tried the PM again you have nothing to say if this helps or not. In otherwords, even if it WERE relevant to the discussion you "evidence" is sorely lacking.


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The feds definitely dont maintain a standing ground force - UFP worlds dont really have a military, just Starfleet. So yes, any successful ground incursion would be game over.

However, as stated: the "sit at the edge of space and fire ballistic warheads" tactic is frankly awful, the ships would need to get closer - from days/weeks out (depending on the warp routes) giving the feds PLENTY of time to uttterly wreck the ships.

Modquisition on. Lets continue to play nice and calm it down. Also, all caps means SHOUTING. Lets not SHOUT.

Sorry Frazzled...*remembers xkcd cartoon*

Its somewhat unfortunate that everyone is so hung up on the Picard maneuver and the relative weapon yields of the UFP / IoM ships. In my opinion, a UFP / IoM conflict would never involve a straight up fight. As the majority of UFP vessels are science and survey vessels, the UFP would definitely be unsucessful from the get-go. However, as these same undergunned vessels are designed to record stellar phenomena, they are uniquely equipped to record information about the IoM ships at range, and can definitely muster the speed to escape the IoM ships once initial long range scans determined that the are severly outgunned. First contact would probably consist of the UFP hailing the IoM at range, receiving demands to surrender, the UFP scanning the aggressors, and then, if still alive, engaging in a hasty retreat.

Thinking outside the box of traditional firepower considerations: IoM's warp travel is essentially a dimensional swap, where the ship exits real space, enters "warp space", travels a distance and exits again into another place in real space. Ignoring the inherent randomness of "warp space" for a minute here - the act of entering and exiting warp space should result in recordable phenomena. Trek has a noted history of detecting, determining the root cause of, and collapsing various spatial anomalies. As such, it does not seem to be too much of a stretch to suggest that the UFP may be able to collapse the "warp space" exits used by the IoM. Such a collapse would probably be catastrophic for the ships attempting to exit the warp.

Regarding conventional weapons - here is a list of documented Trek technology which I think may be easily applied to good use against an enemy such as the IoM.

Unrestricted:
Self replicating weapons - Deep Space Nine - Call to Arms
AI smart weapons - Voyager - Dreadnought (ref: 1T Antimatter, shielded, disruptor equipped)

Restricted by treaty.
Interphasic cloaking technology - ST:TNG - Pegasus

Combining said technologies to create advanced AI driven, self guiding, replicating, shielded/cloaked, interphasic torpedoes doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. A mass rollout of uncrewed super smart weapons would go far to balancing the numerical inferiority suffered by the UFP.

keezus - I've pretty much already suggested they would do exactly that - find a way to close warp rifts to either entirely prevent exit (which happened in the recent Word Bearers novel) or, more cruelly, collapse it as the ship leaves the warp.

However I dont see it beign a "conventional" engagement at all - the trek shis have *no need* to drop otu of warp to attack the IoM vessels, meaning they can hit with impunity - even if they cannot one shot the vessels, death by a thousand (or hundred, or 10) would do the job. And they would have plenty of time to do it before the IoM was in range of any UFP planet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However I dont see it beign a "conventional" engagement at all - the trek shis have *no need* to drop otu of warp to attack the IoM vessels, meaning they can hit with impunity - even if they cannot one shot the vessels, death by a thousand (or hundred, or 10) would do the job. And they would have plenty of time to do it before the IoM was in range of any UFP planet.

While this tactic is admittedly effective - the IoM may also be able to destroy the attacking ship(s) and/or incoming torpedoes by volume of firepower - otherwise known as "spray and pray". Similar strategies were employed by surface fleets against aircraft in WW2 and bomber groups against fighters. It is of course conceivable that the UFP would be able to plot a trajectory to avoid all incoming fire - but canon does not seem to support this. IIRC, proximity to planets may also limit the UFP's mobility as starships usually proceed at impulse within star systems on the TV episodes.

40k wins this argument, purely because the Star Trekkies will not be able to counter this argument. They've avoided my points twice. Now...where's the Chaos vs UFP thread??


In comes the constellation guns a'blazing.
Then in comes Eisenhorn along with his ol' buddy ol' pal cherubael. Cherbael wrecks the ship. Then twiddles his thumbs. Then wrecks more ships. Then goes away. (He destroys a warlord titan by being there ; ) ).
Or even....
Twenty Grey Knight terminators teleport in and blow up a ship (Stop telling me it's not impossible. They do it whilst into warp transition into a moving infernus class cruiser with shields and what not. It also has a psyker protecting it. That's better than a retribution class capital ship, and for the record the ship has a nova cannon )
Or even....
The Emperor blowing you up. Seriously. Not too difficult for someone who can keep the Chaos powers from invading, rip holes in the universe ie the storm of the emperors wrath whilst being on a life support machine.
Or even....
Being attacked by assasins.
Or even...
Being attacked by daemons. And don't tell me the imperium only. The imperium has captured plenty of daemons in its time.

You get my point. The imperium has so many ways of destroying the UFP, and yes they can work on a faster than light scale. If anyone wants even more methods, just ask. Heck, I'll chuck some more in if you counter argue these

The Unending wrote:


Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless

wonderful!

@ Karimabuseer: Didn't you post this already? Oh, and my dad can beat up your dad... so nyah nyah nyah!


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Sageheart wrote:

The Unending wrote:

Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless

wonderful!

There was another thread like this a while back. The trouble with the UFP / IoM comparison is that Trek is based on pesudo-science. WH40k is based on space opera fantasy. As soon as you try and scrutinize the 40k numbers, everything falls apart. Let me elaborate:

Photon Torpedo: 24 MT yeild from 1.5kg antimatter / matter reaction - a bit smaller than man sized.
IoM missile: 610 GT yield. This makes it 25417x more powerful than a photon torpedo. In order to match yields, 38.125 tons of antimatter / matter. Unfortunately, the IoM doesn't use antimatter / matter reactions. They use FUSION reactions instead, which are much less efficient... Even if they were 10% as efficient (and I doubt that it is), that would result in each torpedo clocking in at 762.5 tons of reactive materials for the warhead alone, not counting any dentonation mechanisms, drive components etc. Even composed of a dense material such as U, you would be looking at a warhead that is 40.35m3+ in materials only.

That's just a single torpedo. The fluff indicates that 10ks+ quantity of these torpedoes are carried. It begins to get silly when one considers the powerplant required to sustain fire to the ship batteries (requiring sustained power, magnitudes more powerful than the torpedoes) and engines - due to the lack of efficiency provided by Fusion reactors, the amount of space required for fuel and reactors is enormous. Given an Imperial Class ship, kms long, if one uses a figure of fusion having 10x efficiency over fission - over 50% of the ship would be needed for reactor space in order for its main guns to operate in a battlefield situation - this doesn't include engine and life support draw. It doesn't include space needed for fuel, nor space for crew, nor storage for ordinance, nor the food/water that must also be carried to sustain the enormous crew and embarked IoM navy / IG - especially since IoM ships could potentially spend MONTHS in the warp.

When compared against nonsensical fantasy technology as featured in WH40k, Trek doesn't stand a chance. It's like asking someone who would win in a fight - Hulk Hogan - based on his exaggerated (but still within the realm of human capability) in-ring exploits or The Hulk, based on the comics (utter fantasy).

keezus wrote:

When compared against nonsensical fantasy technology as featured in WH40k, Trek doesn't stand a chance. It's like asking someone who would win in a fight - Hulk Hogan - based on his exaggerated (but still within the realm of human capability) in-ring exploits or The Hulk, based on the comics (utter fantasy).

Well, yes. That's kind of the point.

Why do you think the technology used 40,000 years in the future (that would be about 7 times as long as the human race has existed so far) would BE comprehensible? I would frankly assume that it would seem utterly fantastic to us. I imagine a Sumerian king would have a very similar reaction if asked whether he thought the Assyrian army, the most advanced military of the time, could stand up to the USMC.

"Weapons that send small bits of metal flying through the air too fast to see, at ranges of hundreds of yards? Well, of COURSE, if we're discussing FANTASY, this "USMC" would win. But we're talking about REAL warfare!"

nosferatu1001 wrote:One thing ISNT uncertain: the ability to fire while at warp is a HUGE advantage that the IoM has no known counter for: psykers MAY be able to locate ships, but likely all they could do is tell you an attack is coming - if you cannot neutralise the incoming torpedoes you wouldnt be any better off, just slightly faster at damage control (if that did you any good)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
If we look at the weapons carried by say, a Lunar-Class cruiser, namely lance batteries that are more than capable of destroying country-sized areas, we see that the IoM does indeed have a massive amount of firepower at it's disposal. Now consider that the shields of the aforementioned cruiser can soak up such damage, albeit only to a certain extent. Then consider that the ship itself, without shields, can survive several strikes before any significant damage is done. Somebody recently provided ample evidence that Imperial ship weaponry is powerful on a ridiculous scale, as I recall, and even provided evidence that the Federation vessels' weapons could not compare to them in terms of brute force (as an aside, we are discussing standard armaments, right?)

Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.

As to your point about the Structural integrity fields, I have to point out that again, the Imperium makes up for that by using super-hard alloys. Seriously, Adamantium and Ceramite (as materials) are incredibly durable: Ceramite is heat-resistant to the Nth degree, and Adamantium is the hardest material in the known galaxy. I'm just saying that the Imperial vessels aren't as helpless as you seem to believe.
As a question, are Photon torpedos a traditional torpedo weapon, or an energy weapon? This is very important, y'see.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

keezus wrote:
"Weapons that send small bits of metal flying through the air too fast to see, at ranges of hundreds of yards? Well, of COURSE, if we're discussing FANTASY, this "USMC" would win. But we're talking about REAL warfare!"

Oh I agree with your assessment. "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistingushable for magic."

However, considering that most technology has been lost to the IoM, I do believe that it is debatable as to whether the technology featured in WH40k can be considered advanced - and if it is, whether it is more advanced than Trek. I would have no problem accepting all the silly power levels except for one thing. The writers made a half assed attempt to explain how things work...

It is explicity stated all over the fluff that the majority of equipment employed by IoM uses Fusion as an energy source - by nature, fusion is generation of power through smashing smaller atoms together into bigger ones, where as fission is splitting atoms. While the process could become more streamlined, eficient with smaller equipment - this basic premise shouldn't change regardless of technological advancements. Fusion also has a maximum energy yield which is less than that of antimatter-matter annihilation reactions. What doesn't change is the quantity of raw fuel required for the reaction. Considering that Trek vessels use anti-matter / matter reactions for power (with the warp core roughly 1/4 of the ship) and have weapons and shields drawing power 2 magnitudes lower than that of IoM vessels, these less efficient powerplants (again by several magnitudes) of the IoM should, by all logic be enormous.

On the one hand, you have Starships, Titans and void shields. On the other hand, you have the elite warriors of the IoM Adeptus Astartes carrying hand held caseless rocket guns riding in repurposed industrial equipment (Rhino STC). On the one hand, the IoM can bomb a planet into oblivion from orbit. On the other hand, they can't seem to overcome the Orks, while numerous, whom (outside of space craft and energy weapons) are equipped with mostly ramshackle 21th century level tech.

As a result, IMHO, 40k tech ISN'T so advanced as to be indistiguishable from magic... especially since the writers don't treat it as such.

Wait you guys are comparing Who would win the Star trek universe or the Imperium?
Imperium dude!
Grey Knights teleport on board Federation Ships. Well they are Screwed. Grey Knights Win! Terminators Win! Captain Kirk thrown into outer space by Yarrick. Inquisitors Stealing Technology from Scotty. Well imperium won basically that's How i would say it.
The Federation can't fight against superior armor, and weapons. the Imperium uses Advanced weapons. Lasers don't work. That's basically a Laspistol compared to a Bolter. End.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.

A photorp is an antimatter weapon. It doesn't matter what your hull composition is, considering that once the containment field is penetrated, the antimatter and the matter of the target's hull will mutually annihilate and give off energy. This reaction doesn't care what kind of matter the hull is made of.

In my view, the trouble is that there really isn't any clear indication of how void shields function, nor what they stop. I am fairly certain that they wouldn't stop something equipped with an interphasic cloak, but you'd definitely need higher yields than standard photorps to compete with IoM armored hulls. I think that the "Dreadnought" Cardassian weapon from the Voyager episode of the same name would be fairly effective (possibly one-shotting an IoM ship), if it were able to bypass the void shields, being that it travels up to Warp 9, is self guiding, shielded, can defend itself from enemy fighters with its disruptor banks and has a one ton antimatter payload. With such weapons in existence, it seems foolhardy to me to actually send SHIPS to engage the IoM.

keezus wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Therefore I severely doubt that Photon Torpedos, even launched from Warp Speed, would have all that much of an effect. They simply do not have the required power to do the damage you are suggesting.

A photorp is an antimatter weapon. It doesn't matter what your hull composition is, considering that once the containment field is penetrated, the antimatter and the matter of the target's hull will mutually annihilate and give off energy. This reaction doesn't care what kind of matter the hull is made of.

Seems a bit of a misnomer to call it a Photon Torpedo, then. That would imply it to be a plasma-based weapon. Damn those Trek writers, they've confused me again!

Yeah but your comparing them to a lance weapon. Lances can go through anything shields. Lances are basically superheated metals going at the speed of a asteriod x40,000. it's effect is a 400 gigaton bomb. Basically an earth shatterer. A single lance weapon form a crusier can destory an entire moon.

keezus wrote:

It is explicity stated all over the fluff that the majority of equipment employed by IoM uses Fusion as an energy source - by nature, fusion is generation of power through smashing smaller atoms together into bigger ones, where as fission is splitting atoms. While the process could become more streamlined, eficient with smaller equipment - this basic premise shouldn't change regardless of technological advancements. Fusion also has a maximum energy yield which is less than that of antimatter-matter annihilation reactions. What doesn't change is the quantity of raw fuel required for the reaction. Considering that Trek vessels use anti-matter / matter reactions for power (with the warp core roughly 1/4 of the ship) and have weapons and shields drawing power 2 magnitudes lower than that of IoM vessels, these less efficient powerplants (again by several magnitudes) of the IoM should, by all logic be enormous.

On the one hand, you have Starships, Titans and void shields. On the other hand, you have the elite warriors of the IoM Adeptus Astartes carrying hand held caseless rocket guns riding in repurposed industrial equipment (Rhino STC). On the one hand, the IoM can bomb a planet into oblivion from orbit. On the other hand, they can't seem to overcome the Orks, while numerous, whom (outside of space craft and energy weapons) are equipped with mostly ramshackle 21th century level tech.

As a result, IMHO, 40k tech ISN'T so advanced as to be indistiguishable from magic... especially since the writers don't treat it as such.

I will be the first to admit that atomic physics is not my area of expertise. Is the yield of a fusion reaction related to the atoms involved? If so, it might be that Imperial fusion technology is simply better than what we currently think of as "fusion".

For instance, the inefficiency of a fusion reaction comes from energy being dispersed as light, heat, and particle radiation, correct? If Imperial reactors included technology which, to throw out a wild example, prevented the emission of electromagnetic rays from the atoms being fused, wouldn't that increase efficiency and allow both a smaller reactor and less fuel mass? Of course, what I just said is probably psuedoscientific gobbledygook, but then we are discussing what powers city-sized starships in the far future. . .

That made my head hurt. But I still got it. I agree. We are over our heads in this matter.

Keezus - spray and pray would not work: you could not cover say, a 1 light second bubble of space (300km^3*pi*4/3$) with a sufficient density of fire to actually hit anything.

And that assumes they get as close as 1 lightsecond - double the distance? You now have to cover a sphere 8 times the size.

In addition it wouldnt work in a fleet, as they couldnt hit their own side - there would be plenty of deadzones.

Karimabuseer - actually you were answered a couple pages back. You assume that a) cherubael can go through trek shields as easily as a titans void shields, a shky assumption, that b) you can teleport onto a ship you cannot detect, through the shi9elds you dont know you can penetrate, accurately enough, or c) the emperors dead, get over it, d) how do the assasins get on the ship? Magic? e) captured daemons are daemonhosts. you know, like cherubael. Same problem as before.

Anything else, maybe add something new this time?

keezus - dont forget that the base MT yield is NOT the highest yield it can get to - the photon warheads have a dialable yield, from 25isotons to 200.

At 200isotons that vaporises a city. Or , in other words, it vaporises something about 5km from end to end...happy coincidence that!

All: Fusion releases energy by exploiting the binding energy difference between an atom and a heavier atom - witht he most efficient reaction being deuterium / tritium. well, known to us anyway, and unless theyve found a new element zero

that efficiency is at best an order of magnitude lower than matter annihilation.

And as was stated - antimatter makes your hull go away, regardless of what it is. Hits near the engines, and breaches plasma containment - well thats bye bye that engine [or bank of engines] and probably bye bye that side of the ship

Asherian - no, no it cant. Otherwise planets hit by lance strikes would nt show essentiallyt surface (not even through the crust) damage.


$=113,097,355km^3

But, if you're going to assume that ST physic = 40k physic, then you have to at least assume ST shield = 40k shield...