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Star Trek would be a hell of a lot better if they just plugged in the AI and let it run their ships at super-human speeds and stopped just sitting in front of one another blasting away.

Terminus wrote:Well, ST could probably easily take on Babylon 5, but the latter still wins the moral victory due to superior writing.

Well Yea. B5 uber alles. Shadows would warp in, KILL EVERYTHING and the warp right back out without even slowing down.

Why are star trek fans so aggressively obnoxious? No other setting seems to breed large quantities of fans unable to accept that another fictional setting might have a higher technology level then their fictional setting.

It's like the superhero A vs superhero B arguments I use to see on the playground when I was at primary school.

Scott: In all honesty, I think it's a reaction to the way society views Trek fans. I mean the word 'Trekkie' is something understood by everyone, and it seems saying that you like Trek to someone automatically labels you a rabid Trekkie who goes around in a Starfleet uniform, and fantasizes about Uhura and all the other chars. Saying your like other scifi series hasn't had that same reaction from others....or at least that's what happened in my personal experience. I'd almost think that their determination to prove Trek is the best comes from this. If they're gonna be labeled a crazy fan of a series, might as well insist that your series is the best EVAR!!!!one1!!

Also, because there's all kinds of fandoms and all kinds of fans. Know what I mean? There's some in 40K who are like that, too.

Every fandom has a couple that are OTT. With ST though it seems to be a bigger chunk and they are dedicated not to telling everyone that their show is better (which is at least rational) but that their fictional technology is better (which just makes no sense, especially for a relatively near future show with no significant military aspects)

To take the SW vs ST that seems to crop up all the time, to argue the relative merits of the films might be interesting. To argue the relative levels of technology is bizarre.

Maybe it's like ChrisWWII said, and it's a self-defence mechanism.

I doubt that trekkies get any more ostracized than people who collect toy soldiers, but maybe I'm wrong.

I like Star Trek; the Original Series and the Next Generation were both good shows, and Deep Space 9 was decent (If a Babylon 5 knockoff at times). However, the fanbase manages to tick me off enough to actually make me often on the other side of Star Trek debates. When I see an "Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer" thread online, you'll typically find a thousand rabid online fans screaming about how it doesn't matter that the Star Destroyer has firepower that can destroy the surface of a planet, far superior traveling speed, and shields that can withstand whatever the Enterprise puts out: The answer will always be "The Enterprise finds some ridiculously complicated technical solution that I can't specify and SAVES THE DAY!"

These fans are like Star Wars fans who talk about Jedi being better than any other fictional heroes, or Halo fans who think that the Master Chief can take on entire armies of Space Marines; they don't reflect well upon the rest of the people who watch the show.

Then there are the REALLY rabid fans. The people who go to conventions in Darth Vader helmets or Spock ears...

Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?

Nightsbane - the manouver is almost "never" used because other ships have >light speed sensors. It was used against the Ferengi ship precisely because it didnt have subspace sensors.

Chris
Yes, yes they do have FTL sensors - how do you think they navigate at warp, guess work? S you b s p a c e. its hoew they see whats happening light years away, ya know?

3) each photon torpedo makes a cruise missile lok like a dummy. It has waaaay more accurate weapons than the 40k universe, as it isnt a mostly dumb projectile.

And why did they flit around the cube? becuause the closer they are the hard er it is to lock onto someone as your relative angle changes faster? Which against a 40k vessel with the turning circle of a planetary orbit...

4) You 've never heard of dialable yield have you. 200isoton is level 10. level 1 is fireworks. ALL mark 6s can go up to level 10. Again, research, try it some time. 200 isoton is what they *can* use on *every single* warhead. Except it breaks their current treaties on size of weapons. Quantum torpedoes go even higher.

There is plenty examples of 40k battles in fluff - try the current Word Bearers novel, for example. Its naval warfare, 18th century style, with rolling broadsides and an occasional nmod to the 3rd dimension.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nightsbane - the manouver is almost "never" used because other ships have >light speed sensors. It was used against the Ferengi ship precisely because it didnt have subspace sensors.

Chris
Yes, yes they do have FTL sensors - how do you think they navigate at warp, guess work? S you b s p a c e. its hoew they see whats happening light years away, ya know?

3) each photon torpedo makes a cruise missile lok like a dummy. It has waaaay more accurate weapons than the 40k universe, as it isnt a mostly dumb projectile.

And why did they flit around the cube? becuause the closer they are the hard er it is to lock onto someone as your relative angle changes faster? Which against a 40k vessel with the turning circle of a planetary orbit...

4) You 've never heard of dialable yield have you. 200isoton is level 10. level 1 is fireworks. ALL mark 6s can go up to level 10. Again, research, try it some time. 200 isoton is what they *can* use on *every single* warhead. Except it breaks their current treaties on size of weapons. Quantum torpedoes go even higher.

There is plenty examples of 40k battles in fluff - try the current Word Bearers novel, for example. Its naval warfare, 18th century style, with rolling broadsides and an occasional nmod to the 3rd dimension.

Let's talk about that 200-isoton yield.

1. For starters, the Deep Space Nine Tech Manual states that quantum torpedos have a yield of 50+ isotons.

2. In First Contact, it requires 4 quantum torpedoes to destroy a Borg sphere.

3. Therefore, a Borg sphere requires at least 200 isotons-worth of fire to destroy, by simple arithmetic.

4. A Borg sphere is TINY compared to an Imperial battleship. Perhaps the size of a frigate.

5. So yes, a Starfleet ship could possibly destroy an Imperial Frigate with a single torpedo. It would take a hell of a lot more than that to take out a capital ship, however, and this is all assuming that shielding and armour technology are comparable, which is an enormous assumption. It's entirely possible that neither side would be able to hurt the other at all, because their shields run on entirely different principles.

6. Furthermore, if that Starfleet ship takes a single shot during this engagement, it's dead meat. No question about that, the energy generated by Imperial weapons is orders of magnitude higher than that created by phasors, cutting beams, or any standard ship-borne weapon in ST.

7. It'll also need to keep on the bounce constantly, which will sort of mess up firing solutions, because if it stands still for a minute the Imperials will simply teleport troops aboard, and if there is one area where the Federation simply cannot compete it is man-to-man combat.

8. And no, teleportation is not unreliable against an enemy that has no way of jamming it. Scatter is explicitly stated to represent knowing enemy action to jam teleportation, through sorcery,

6. You ignore the thing called a Structural Integrity field, which makes a phsyical object MUCH more resilient to damage.

Something the Imperium lacks.

The way I see it, 40k would win this fight since Starfleet hasn't been a real military power since they made peace with the Klingons in the late Kirk era.
The USS Defiant that arrives in the later part of the Deep Space 9 series is the first federation warship to be built in a long time.
Some of the alternate reality federations (like the one that never made peace with the Klingons) might stand a better chance devoting more time and resources to warfare.

In general Star Trek tech seems more reliable and uses more finesse, while Imperium tech is unreliable (to the extreme in some cases like warp travel) and relies more on raw strength.

The Necrons seem to have the closest parallel to Federation warp drive (much faster than light without passing through the warp), and they have managed to land on Mars
bypassing the patrolling Imperial navy (but the last ship was destroyed after landing). A real star trek tech level armada could do real damage to the Imperium with surprise
attacks. Main difference between Star Trek Warp drive, and Necron propulsion systems seems to be that Necrons drop below light speed to fire their weapons, while
star trek frequently targets a hostile vessels warp drive while travelling at high warp themselves to stop them (enterprise is frequently the target of this kind of attack though).

Comparing weapon tech, both sides have weapons capable of tearing a hole in reality with the Imperium having an advantage in numbers here since they exist in a state of constant warfare.
Starfleet being more explorers and police than an army have less weapons on their vessels, and less powerful standard armaments.

Comparing the Imperium to one of the star trek antagonist races would be a more even fight (in some cases, warping to the home planet of a species and erasing the entire species
from history is just plain cheating).
The Dominion and the Borg would most likely have a better chance (hmmmm, Borg assimilating Space Marines, would their superior physiology manage to neutralize the
Borg nanoprobes like species 8472?. On the other hand, Space Marines adapting to most weapons fire neutralizing it completely ) since both races have a culture more suited for warfare.

In a straight up fight, the Imperium would win hands down, but each side given a 100 year warning would tip the scales in favour of Starfleet with their superior technology.

Necroman wrote:Then there are the REALLY rabid fans. The people who go to conventions in Darth Vader helmets or Spock ears...

There's a full video of a Star Wars-themed wedding floating around the internet. The bride was Leia (of course), but the really bizarre part was the groom dressed as Vader.

Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?

Good motion. This topic has definatly become possibly the worst beaten horse I've seen on this site yet, and I contributed to it. Dont think i've had a bigger 40K pride moment in all my life.

But I'd have to say I kinda prefer the star trek setting for the universe. The fact is most intelligent life forms out there would most likely have some room for diplomacy. Not all, but alot. I dont know bout anyone else, but if an alien species landed on earth tomorrow i'd be thrilled to meet a potential new being, knowing I wasn't alone in the Galaxy.

Although I must admit, the 40K version of the universe is the worst potential outcome. Everyone constantly wanting to kill each other, daemons posessing bodies and killing humans all over, random alien species without number who's only purpose is eating or killing all. I think the Star trek universe is more realitic for sure. 40K is just damn cool =)

Terminus wrote:The bride was Leia (of course), but the really bizarre part was the groom dressed as Vader.

I find that slightly disturbing, given the history between Leia & Vader...

This WAS Kentucky.

I'd have to say that my preferred setting is 40k....I mean, I enjoy Star Trek, but the naivete and the communist tendencies of the Federation tend to really grate on me. In all honesty, one of the reasons I love 40k is the fact that 40k kind of has that modern fantasy feel, which is a genre I really want to see more exploration into. Hell, my friends and I once had a nice discussion on how to fight the Battle of Pelennor Fields with World War 2 tech. It was actually quite fun. =D (Image of Stukas pounding the crap out of Minas Tirith much?)

But as to beating a dead horse....this trope went TOTALLY off topic from what I wanted. I didn't want a 'Which side would kick the other sides ass?' debate like what we got.....I wanted a 'What would each sides reactions be to the other?' discussion. But ah well....you get what you get.

Reactions? The UFP would try to get the Imperium to join, and if that didnt work would try a "neutral zone" style treaty. If that didnt work they would beat the enemy back to the home planet and then...stop. And look for a treaty again.

Kirks era was much simpler - hit it or sh*g it seemed to be the order of the day!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Picard Manouver, Picard manouver, Picard Manouver.

Got that?

Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.

The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.

Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.

Is that easy enough to grasp?

Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.

200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.

Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.

Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.

Seconded.

Besides, if you want to play broken tactics, I'll just get on the phone to Abbadon and see if I can borrow his Blackstone Fortresses and Planet Killer. He's usually cool with it, as long as I don't scratch the paintwork.

That made me laugh

By the way people, read what I posted before, as it completely wrecks your argument
In comes the constellation guns a'blazing.
Then in comes Eisenhorn along with his ol' buddy ol' pal cherubael. Cherbael wrecks the ship. Then twiddles his thumbs. Then wrecks more ships. Then goes away. (He destroys a warlord titan by being there ; ) ).
Or even....
Twenty Grey Knight terminators teleport in and blow up a ship (Stop telling me it's not impossible. They do it whilst into warp transition into a moving infernus class cruiser with shields and what not. It also has a psyker protecting it. That's better than a retribution class capital ship, and for the record the ship has a nova cannon )
Or even....
The Emperor blowing you up. Seriously. Not too difficult for someone who can keep the Chaos powers from invading, rip holes in the universe ie the storm of the emperors wrath whilst being on a life support machine.
Or even....
Being attacked by assasins.
Or even...
Being attacked by daemons. And don't tell me the imperium only. The imperium has captured plenty of daemons in its time.

You get my point. The imperium has so many ways of destroying the UFP, and yes they can work on a faster than light scale. If anyone wants even more methods, just ask

nosferatu1001 wrote:6. You ignore the thing called a Structural Integrity field, which makes a phsyical object MUCH more resilient to damage.

Something the Imperium lacks.

Probably because it isn't necessary given the hardness of the materials from which Imperial vessels are made.

Anyway, back to the point in hand. I prefer 40K, as it just feels more realistic than Star Trek does (to a certain extent, anyway; there's still daemons kicking aorund, after all)
In addition, the units, races and vehicles just look, well, cooler. This is of course subjective, but I think I'd rather have a guard regiment as ship's troops than a federation ensign mob any day.

Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...

Karimabuseer - find an example where the GK teleport onto a ship moving by warping space time around it. Then you can use them as your be all and end all. Bearing in mind you can neither see nor sense the ship...

They see Cherubael coming, warp "backwards", shoot. rinse, repeat. Cherubael speed <<<<< FTL.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...

Harder than Adamantium, the hardest known substance? Possibly. Depends on how inventive they were feeling, and how much time they had to come up with it.
And if we're going down the "Imperium can't invent stuff," route, I think you'll find that the Imperium's vessels aren't all ancient designs. The BFG book is full of ships that were "experimental," or a reconfiguration of an older design.

Also, the Federation is a UN-style peacekeeping force to my knowledge, and so would be at a disadvantage when fighting a force dedicated to war and war alone. Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Tau can invent still, and so would have no problem keeping up with the Federation's tech by inventing things to counter it.

Hardest known substance...to 40k science.

the key there is "known", and comparing the two is kinda tricky.

The Imperium *occasionally*, with the tech priests sanctions, come up with something new. The noosphere for example - and Magos are known for customising their own vessels. However a widely known part of 40k is "the older the better" - literally the older ships ARE the best they have, anything more recent is not as good.

The UFP have been at war a number of times (Romulan, Klingon, Dominion, Borg sort of) - they have the ability to mass produce starships (the defiant class for example) when they need to. They are essentially in the same situation as the UK in WWII - loads of planes, nto enough pilots. The human element is the sticking point.


Interestingly the one areas where the imperium definitely WAS ahead was in Thinking Machines. Data is still a pain to replicate yet they managed to get thinking machines into an STC!

I love the trek universe mainly for the hope it brings - it is exactly the opposite of the 40k universe, where there IS no hope - mankind is doomed to a long, slow death. Unless Chaos finally get their act together....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hardest known substance...to 40k science.

the key there is "known", and comparing the two is kinda tricky.

Hence why I didn't just say "and so Trek couldn't come up with a way to get around that." Don't worry, I'm not planning fanboy-related attacks, just interested in a debate.
Also, interesting "thinking machines," point. Yeah, a lot of Imperial technology has rudimentary sentience, which is a little strange when you come to think of it.

Necroman wrote:
Now, how about a different topic: Which is the cooler setting, the Star Trek universe with its more positive outlook, or Warhammer 40,000 with its GRIMDARK out the ears?

I think 40K is the more interesting setting once you delve deeper than the whole "universe at war" thing. With the immense variety of planets in the Imperium, there are any number of settings, whether from cyberpunk dystopias, to apocalyptic Mad Max-style settings, to ultra-high tech planets full of politics and intrigue, nearly feudal/medieval settings, et al. Once we move into the Dark Heresy-level of 40K, there is a lot more there than just GRIMDARK and superhuman soldiers fighting unimaginable horrors. Commies in Space are kind of bleh by comparison.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol, so you think that the federation (tech >>>>>>> imperium tech) cant come up with a harder material compared to a dark age society using 10,000 year old ships they worship? Unlikely in the extreme...

The majority of the Imperium is in complete dark of the technology and treat it with reverence (and even then it depends on the individual planet and how widespread technological sophistication is), but the Adepts of Mars are very much aware of this tech's inner workings. And just because the technology is 10,000 years old, doesn't mean it's inferior. We have a number of examples of creations from the Dark Age of Technology that make the borg look like kittens with mittens.

No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.

Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they have spirits, they are NOT thinking machines - which is outlawed. Thge big & old machine spirits (imperator, old ships) seem to be on a par with federation computers that have been given more freedoms - however the apparent sentience could be a ghost of the way techpriests to princeps link to the machines - MIUs. In otherwords the machine "spirits" are just echoes of all the different people that have connected.

Actual Thinking Machines (TM) are entirely banned - considered a tech heresy by the mechanicus. So data would be really, really REALLY hated by the AM

Not necessarily, technically the AM believes that every machine is alive in a sense. I'd guess that the average machine-spirit was an A.I considered acceptable by the AM as it did not display full sentience, which is what IS outlawed.

Terminus - actually even the adepts still treat them as religious icons, without a deep understanding of the "how" - hence why STCs are so prized. They understand ho0w to fix, not create - if what you are saying is true why do they treat the loss of a Titan as an irreplaceable loss of machinery? Your version of the truth would allow them to still create titans - whcih they cannot (especially as the STC for titans went a little...wrong....)

Same for Baneblades: they CANNOT create new baneblades without the STC. Hence you have the Malcador and Macharius, which are attempts to make something superheavy - but clearly inferior.

This inability to create truly new (remember, ALL the is True is already known and has been recorded as holy STCs, that is a core AM belief) technology, merely fix and possibly tinker (but in limited, proscribed ways, with any change requiring *hundreds* of years befroe acceptance) is the hugest weakness: ST ships innovate *all* the time (even if it IS normally the deflector dish that holds the key.... ) and the pace of techniology change has yet to plateau - hell, theyre only a few years away from developing "easy" time travel (Voyager, final episode) if they need to!

So any Dark Age advantage, if used, would be analysed, reverse engieneered, and duplicated or defeated as needed. Precise, FAST communication ensures that for a start. My predictions would be Geller fields neutralised in minutes, probably involving channelling the warp drive throught he deflector dish to create an Imaginarion pulse....

Just to correct you, but I think that Malcadors and Macharius tanks are actually precursors to the Baneblade.

The lower ranks don't, and sure they all follow the proscribed rituals, but in any number of books featuring the higher ranking Adepts, they know far more about their technology than you give them credit. They have plenty of "new" technological wonders to introduce, they just wait a few centuries and discuss things ad nauseaum in committees before they do so, lest they somehow trigger another Dark Age. Everything in the Imperium moves at the pace of decades, if not centuries.

But all this is inconsequential to the topic at hand. Once we dismiss the ludicrous idea that the Imperial ships couldn't even touch the Federation's (which half a dozen people have done conclusively), the war is over. The UFP's idea of a powerful fleet is 40 ships, and losing 39 of them is absolutely crippling. The Imperium wouldn't even notice 40 ships being destroyed. Just by sheer attrition would they win, not to mention having far far far far far far far more powerful weaponry. Hell, they don't even have to hit the Federation ships to kill half the crew onboard. A nova cannon blast passing within a few kilometers would probably create a shockwave that at least shakes up the Federation ship a little, which means the 90%-standing crew gets tossed down the hallway or fried by exploding control boards. The end.