Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Double post. Even dakka agrees

The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will.

I'm going to bow out of this argument with what I started with.

This is pointless, star trek fanboys are more annoying than any other kind of fanboy. They believe that the ships and "science" (ha ha) are superior to anything else that has ever, and will ever exist. There is no budging with them. They believe that UPF shielding and beam weapons can destroy all, even though as I stated this technology was uttery devastated by the klingons, romulans, borg, and dominion. Each time their shields nor beams did hold.

You have a foe made up of primarily scientists and humanitarians facing a vastly larger foe with absolutely no reservations about slaughtering every single living being in a system of destroying entire planets. Starfleet has NEVER faced a foe like that. The klingons wanted territory, the borg wanted to assimilate their collective and improve it, the dominion wanted control, and the romulans want power. Not a single one of these factions would go anywhere near the lengths of the imperium, which would be absolutely contented in leaving all quadrants in smoking ruin with no life remaining.

The "almighty" federation is constantly beat to pieces and those "superior" warships and shields get one shotted constantly in on screen battles.

You guys are fanboys and making crap up.

In show examples are given of how long it takes for fleets to move about, and how little defenses can hold up vs. the enemy in movies, deep space nine primarily. The imperium would alter their technology after the first failed salvo (even though that wouldn't happen) and quickly find new ways of fighting a new foe. They survived the chaos forces, tyranids, eldar, necron, tau, orks ...... all of these forces and more are infinitely more powerful than the UFP.

You aren't even considering the ramifications of such a fight. Blown engines tearing holes in the warp and causing evil to poor onto the alpha quadrant. Or sucking the ships into the warp altogether while making a jump. There are many things that fed ships simply would not be equipped to deal with.



We know you love Star Trek. I love Star Trek. BUT, the roving progressive band of scientists, explorers, and philosophers could not ever take on 40k, star wars, battlestar galactica, or anything else at all of a genre made for war. PERIOD

Well, ST could probably easily take on Babylon 5, but the latter still wins the moral victory due to superior writing.

I'm getting weird Deja vu about hammer legion members who keep saying that the Daleks stand no chance against the Federation.

Terminus wrote:The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will.

I doubt it would go that far. they'd probably just launch a bunch of mines and watch the fireworks.

A lot of trek stuff works on plottonium, so there no definite numbers to work with.

Well, this thread has gone completely off from my original intentions for it, but ah well, might as well contribute my own two cents.

Now, I just have to refute the idea that Federation ships can flit around at warp, and appear, fire and run away before the Imperial Navy can reply and thus destroy a 40k fleet without any damage to itself. We have to note that Trek weapons simply aren't that powerful. The payload for a photon torpedo is 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter which results in a total yield of about 64 megatons, while a ship level phaser seems to dish out 3.6 gigawatts of energy a minute. The shields on a front line Federation ship like the Galaxy class can handle about 3311 gigawatts of energy being pumped into it before total collapse.
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html << calc citatations 359,

Now, I don't know what the yield of 40k weapon is, but if lances are powerful enough to 'obliterate continents' and the average 40k ship can survive a hit from a lance then we must assume that the shield on a 40k ship are enough to stand up to that amount of firepower without being destroyed. I don't know about you but I think it'd take a LOT more than 3311 gigawatts of power to obliterate a continent. This means that even a glancing hit from a 40k weapon would totally annihilate a front line Federation vessel. Even if the crews of a battleship were told to fire blindly into the Federation fleet....sooner or later they'd get a hit. And sooner or later the fleet would be ground down due to a simple lack of numbers. After Wolf 359, the loss of a mere 39 starships was considered a HUGE defeat that took a whole year to recover from.

Furthermore, we have to remember that Federation starships do not travel in fleets. How many times have we seen the Enterprise be the ONLY vessel in range to deal with major crises? Even along the Romulan Neutral Zone and in the Sol system itself, it seems that the Enterprise is the only ship to deal with problems. If the Imperial Navy blind jumped into a random planet, even a major one like Holy---I mean, Earth or Vulcan. They'd have a high chance of coming in with no space borne opposition. They'd be able to land troops and have a significant presence on the surface of the ground before the Federation could get a sizable fleet together. And given that the Romulans expected to conquer Vulcan with a mere 2000 troops (TNG: Unification), I'd expect ANY Federation planet to fall to either the Guard or Space Marines without too much of a fight.

And finally, refuting the claim that Federation ships don't have any supply lines to sever, we only have to look at Voyager. If Voyager could refill ANY system without stopping at a specialized Federation refueling, rearming and restocking station, why would they have had to ration their replicators and bring a chef on board? Why would the Enterprise have to return to space stations for routine maintenance? (TNG: Starship Mine) It's quite obvious that the Federation needs its supply bases and planets as much as any other scifi civilization.

The Culture doesn't need supply bases and planets. In fact they don't really bother with planets.

Kilkrazy wrote:The Culture doesn't need supply bases and planets. In fact they don't really bother with planets.

then it is very strange that they are constantly stopping for resupply...examples are given MANY times in every series, movie, ect.

Nightsbane - The Culture is from Ian M Banks series of novels. They leave "AI"s (actually that doesnt give you an idea of how advanced they are...) to manage everything, and leave themselves just pre-Sublimation

Chris WWII - you ignore that a) the Imp shields dont stop torpedoes b) you have to hit the ship that can out manourver you before its shield strength is important and c) that means seeing the ship - which can jump to warp whenever it needs to AND can travel at .5c (full impulse) which is significantly faster than an Imp ship AND can turn on the spot due to inertialess movement - with your lightspeed sensors.

As for destructive power the 200isoton load can kill a planet. More than enough to deal with an un-reinforced by SIF Imp ship. *1* torpedo.

The reason Voyager had issues was it was heavily damaged after the travel and had its energy reserves reduced. Assuming it has enough energy it can create anything it wants.

Additionally the space dock was to remove madeup particle a - which in later episodes could be removed without the need for a space dock.

So, advantages that make an ST ship unkillable as far as 40k ships are concerned:

1) 0 - 0.5c instantly. No 40k ship can approach this speed
2) To allow above inertialess manourvdering. You know in BFG when changing direction takes forever?

ST ships dont have to worry about that. They can turn on a pin and move in another direction, effectively instantly.

3) Faster than light sensors, which for the illinformed above DO work at warp speed - so they know wehere you are from light years away.

4) The ability to launch torpedoes while at warp.

While the torps dont have Warp drives they do have a warp gen in the launch tube. At warp this means they have a "hand off" warp field to let them cross between bubbles.

So the Imp ship, which cannot see the ST ship, gets hit by somethiung it cannot see that goes straight through its shields, one shotting it - as they can target areas precisely, like ooooh that 1KM long engine. Bang, gone. As is your ship.

5) The ability to LEARN NEW STUFF. In the imperium this gets you executed.

And we're back to regurgitating the same technobabble nonsense that has been struck down repeatedly. I'm starting to see what Nightbane meant about Star Trek nerds. Haha.

I think the reason why the Trek fanboys keep saying the imeperiums technology and speed, etc, doesnt match star trek is based on a simple fact....there is hardly any recordings of imperial ship battles. Perhaps people who play battle fleet gothic may have some decent ideas on ship backrounds and powers, shields etc, but think of it this way...star trek was a TV series that has had hundreds of episodes to think up and rehash the same old stories with new excitements. They got into ship on ship tactics alot, maneuvers, etc. Just because the 40k universe doesn't talk about its ships that much (except when they say they show up to do an exterminatus) doesn't mean their ships are all of a sudden incapable of standing toe to toe with enemy ships, or employ no strategy or power to engage enemy fleets.

I found this online, I suggest everyone read it.

Design features of Imperial Navy vesselsOffensive WeaponryWeapons batteries usually are the primary armament for most warships. Since each battery consists of numerous ranks of individual weapons, whole sections of the starship's hull can be covered by gun ports, launcher systems, turrets and weapon housings. The weapons employed vary immensely: plasma projectors, close-range missile launchers, laser cannons, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars have been found on Imperial ships. These batteries fire in co-ordinated salvoes, to increase the chances to hit and amount of damage done to a target.

Lances are energy weapons of extreme power. Usually mounted in large and heavily armoured turrets, lances use triple or even quad energy projectors to focus its energy into a concentrated beam, capable of burning through even the most armoured hull and cutting smaller vessels in half.

Torpedoes are long-range missiles carried by many Imperial Navy vessels. From ~60 feet (on destroyers) to ~200 feet (on cruisers) to ~300 feet (on battleships) in length, these weapons are powered by a fusion-based plasma reactor which also doubles as its warhead. Once launched, the plasma drive propels the torpedo towards its foe, whilst starting an energy build-up that will detonate the projectile once it reaches its target. Most torpedoes only have limited detection capabilities and will not track and engage its target unless its passes within a few thousand kilometres of the target vessel. Unlike weapons batteries and lances, torpedoes cannot be deflected by a ship's void shields - most shields intercept incoming fire based on its speed. Torpedoes travel slowly enough (relatively speaking) that shields will not intercept them and they can pass through these powerful energy barriers unimpeded.

Nova Cannons are huge weapons. Normally mounted in the prow of the ship so that the ship's engines can compensate for the recoil, these guns use gravimetric impellers to propel a projectile close to the speed of light. After reaching a preset distance, the projectile implodes with a force potent enough to cripple most vessels and/or damage several at once.

As all have read, that is the weapons array of an imperial ship. The only weapon it says has problems tracking enemies is the torpedo, and it says that it only has problems tracking unless it passes within a few thousand Kilmoeters of the target vessel. From what I know, most UFP weapons are around 10-20 KM range or so i think. I could be wrong about that of course, but fact is they would definatly be close enough for a torpedo to track and hit.

every other weapon mentioned sounds legit. Missles not so much, but the rail gun, nova cannon, lances and torpedos sound like they would be able to do some good damage. AND still track the enemy ships.

Again, im not sitting here saying the UFP wouldn't be able to destroy an imperial ship. Im saying that it's compelte and utter nonsense to beleive that the imperium wouldnt be able to kill a UFP ship. If someone can't face those very simple facts...then keep on whining fan boys.

Star Trek NEVER got into ship to ship or any kind of tactics.

I like the argument that the trekkies try to make about being able to B*-slap the opponent and run away since this NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OF THE SHOWS IN ANY VERSION! How many times in how many versions of Star Trek did the combat consist of either parking in front of their opponent and sissy-laser fighting it out or one ship running away from another while getting shot up the wa-zoo? Even the infantry shoot outs are sit behind something and pop-up to shoot after your opponent has ducked for no apparent reason. The cover by the way doesn't look like it could stop a BB gun.

Here is how the Imperium would win. Drop on top of their objective from another dimension, target planet Exterminatus, move on. It doesn't matter how many Imperial ships you think you can shoot and run away when I've just ended your life and carrier. Yeah that's right, no pension for you because the people you were fighting for are now a collection of nuclear ashes. No chance to start a family or political carrier because %80 of your species is now dead. "Oh but we have collonies on other plantes". No, you have Pit Stops with perminant residence, maybe 200 people a piece, who after they hear how miserably you failed to do your job will treat you like a leper. You say you will vow vengence? Hunt me down until the stars burn out and all of that emo-poetic crap? Fine, I'll just keep burning everything you share a chromosome with until there is nothing left.

I wonder what this thread would look like on a Trekkie Fan-boi site.

EDIT: Don't get me started on Hand to Hand Combat!

ComputerGeek01 wrote:Star Trek NEVER got into ship to ship or any kind of tactics.

I like the argument that the trekkies try to make about being able to B*-slap the opponent and run away since this NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OF THE SHOWS IN ANY VERSION! How many times in how many versions of Star Trek did the combat consist of either parking in front of their opponent and sissy-laser fighting it out or one ship running away from another while getting shot up the wa-zoo? Even the infantry shoot outs are sit behind something and pop-up to shoot after your opponent has ducked for no apparent reason. The cover by the way doesn't look like it could stop a BB gun.

Here is how the Imperium would win. Drop on top of their objective from another dimension, target planet Exterminatus, move on. It doesn't matter how many Imperial ships you think you can shoot and run away when I've just ended your life and carrier. Yeah that's right, no pension for you because the people you were fighting for are now a collection of nuclear ashes. No chance to start a family or political carrier because %80 of your species is now dead. "Oh but we have collonies on other plantes". No, you have Pit Stops with perminant residence, maybe 200 people a piece, who after they hear how miserably you failed to do your job will treat you like a leper. You say you will vow vengence? Hunt me down until the stars burn out and all of that emo-poetic crap? Fine, I'll just keep burning everything you share a chromosome with until there is nothing left.

I wonder what this thread would look like on a Trekkie Fan-boi site.

EDIT: Don't get me started on Hand to Hand Combat!

Yes, outside of defiant battles, all star trek ships fights come down to this:
http://biobreak.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/021109-slap-fight1.jpg

Anyone who has claimed that ships turn around instantly or warp instantly has not watched a single damned episode. Warp drives take time and energy to engage. As far as turning:

DS9: Galaxy glass ship tries to turn and run from jem-hadar = KRAAAAKBOOM explodes will turning like a million ton semi
The example is repeated throughout that series, the previous series, and much of the movies. The big ships turn slower whether they should or not.

If you guys are such huge star trek fans, you should know that it's combat is based off of imperial sea battles of the 17-18th centuries. Not modern dogfighting. Ships move in slowly, orbit each other and fire broadsides. They arrive, prepare, and fight. They do not warp in, blast, and warp out over and over.

Frankly for all of their technology the UFP fights battles like a bunch of monkeys with space age battle rifles... They have the technology, but don't know what to do with it outside making a lot of noice and hitting something once in awhile.

Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength

OK, Can I revize my satement?

40K, we have more ships than you have torpedoes!

Keep in mind that, by my calculations, the nova cannon's explosion has an aproximate diameter of 21 THOUSAND kilometers. Lets assume that a ship's base is about 3.5K K, (it is given as "a few thousand" and IRL, it is about 12.5mm (1/2 of 25mm) then each mm is .28 Km in BFG and nova cannons use the standard 3" template, giving it a diameter of 76mm, or 21 thousand Km BFG scale. The diameter of earth is 12.7 thousand kilometers. Have Fun!

Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength

You know, I always wondered why Star Trek never introduced seats with harnesses to the bridge, so half the essential personnel isn't thrown down the hallway every time the ship shakes.

Terminus wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength

You know, I always wondered why Star Trek never introduced seats with harnesses to the bridge, so half the essential personnel isn't thrown down the hallway every time the ship shakes.

Nightsbane wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The Culture doesn't need supply bases and planets. In fact they don't really bother with planets.

then it is very strange that they are constantly stopping for resupply...examples are given MANY times in every series, movie, ect.

You're thinking of Star Trek

There aren't any series or movies about The Culture, only books.

I am giving it as an example of an SF 'faction' which doesn't use supply bases and planets.

That's true, and the Trekkie fanboys always seem to LOVE making up ideas for their fleets that would offer HUGE combat advantages. So why haven't the Trek captains used it? Yes, irl it's cause the people who write Trek know nothing of military tactics, but if we're looking at it from an in universe perspective.....Trek captain's aren't idiots. Naive? Yes. But dumb? No. Picard showed himself to be a kind of tactical genius (not as good as CREED but good nonetheless ). If he could do this warp in, fire weapons, warp out, repeat tactics that the fanboys swear will destroy the Imperium....then he would have! He would have used it on the Borg. Hell, all of Starfleet would have done it at Wolf 359, and NOT lost 39 out of 40 ships.

And to nosferatu1001

True, they don't stop torpedoes. But 40k torpedoes are VERY different from Star Trek torpedoes. A 40k torpedo is a massive, slow moving projectile, fired at extreme range, and even those torpedoes can be intercepted once they get within a few thousand kilometers. A Star Trek photon torpedo on the other hand bears much more in common to the weapons batteries of a 40k ship. A fast moving projectile fired at a few thousand kilometers of range. These weapons are more than capable of being intercepted by void shields. And, of course a 200 isoton weapon can destroy a planet you say? Well, 2 things:
1) Please give me source for that. As according to VOY: Scorpion, the yield of an average photon torpedo is 200 isotons, and that yield seems to be nowhere near the amount necessary to destroy a planet.
2) The Romulans and Federation have to have reasonably equivalent technology, otherwise one or more of the factions would have just....annihilated each other with superior tech. This implies that if the Federation can manufacture a planet busting 200 isoton weapons, then the Romulans would possess such weapons themselves. If they had such a weapon, then why wouldn't they have used it against the Founder's Planet?

As to logistics....we have to note that the Federation's replicators isn't a magical device. It has limits. It does not create matter, it merely reassembles it into a new form. When the raw material that the replicators utilizes runs out.....what do they do? They have to return to a station to resupply. If those supply stations have been overrun.....what can they do? They can either surrender....or starve. And even a large ship like the Enterprise must constantly stop for resupply, and replacement of materials that can't be replicated. If replicators can make anything...why does the Enterprise need to stop to get components like a warp core hatch? Why does the Federation assemble ships in shipyards instead of building a giant replicator and saying, 'Galaxy class ship' ? Obviously...they can't. They need their supply base just like any other civilization.

Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.

Unless you are the Imperium, in which case you can only use designs made thousands of years ago, which were found in an archaelogical dig and sanctioned by the Adepts of Mars.

Killkrazy wrote:Once you have anti-matter technology making a weapon capable of blowing up a planet is simple a matter of scaling things up.

That's true....but the Federation hasn't shown it has the ability to scale up to the level necessary to destroy a planet. Just because they can build a 64 megaton anti-matter warhead. The example given is humanity right now. We've begun to develop antimatter technology, and we can create some antimatter. That doesn't mean we can create massive anti matter bombs. And even if they COULD build a planet destroying bomb....would it be a practical military weapon? Once again, we can look at current humanity. We can build 50~100 megaton nukes like Tsar Bomba, but those weapons are NOT practical. It's not just a simple matter of scaling up.

Nightsbane wrote:Last point: If Star Trek science is so advanced and amazing, why the hell do they still lose SO many crewmen to exploding consoles?! In all those years and advances they couldn't design them out of non-explosive materials?! Half the bridge of any ship or more always dies to plasma burns from the bloody things when shields are only down to half farking strength

Fuses.

It's not difficult.

And yet they still don't use them. Maybe they should get some electricians and, you know, pay them. (I know they have this bs communist-utopia-we-don't-need-currency thing but beer and wimmens would do).

Picard Manouver, Picard manouver, Picard Manouver.

Got that?

Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.

The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.

Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.

Is that easy enough to grasp?

Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.

200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.

Haha! Look at the angry Trekkie nerd.

Stand back folks, he's about to drop a Genesis torpedo in his pants!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Picard Manouver, Picard manouver, Picard Manouver.

Got that?

Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.

The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.

Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.

Is that easy enough to grasp?

Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.

200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.

Oh no, we just lost a planet. That only leaves, what, millions left?
Attrition. That's what will win the Imperium this war.

Star Trek is a joke they wouldn't survive a day in the 40k universe!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Picard Manouver, Picard manouver, Picard Manouver.

Got that?

Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.

The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.

Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.

Is that easy enough to grasp?

Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.

200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.

Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.

Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.

Nightsbane wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Picard Manouver, Picard manouver, Picard Manouver.

Got that?

Its what happens when a side with light speed sensors (thats the imperium for your fols who are paying attention) fights a side with 1) warp speed and 2) faster than light sensors.

The reason why none oif the battles are warp in and warp out in the TV shows are GASP because both sides have warp drives. Meaning it isnt a viable tactic.

Now, when one side (the imperium) DOESNT have that capability it DOES become a viable tactic.

Is that easy enough to grasp?

Photon torpedoes - in 2367 they had a 1 light second range. A photon torpedo is a lot like a lance? uh, no.

200 isotons is the maximum load of a class 6, not that that is the load normally used. 25 isotons is normally used as 200, or level 10, exceeds SALT.

Is this easy enough for YOU to grasp? The Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver, Picard maneuver is almost never used. Why? because it is a nigh impossible move used by the most experienced captains. You aren't going to have the whole fleet doing it, and still it is not done over an over.

Seriously. You people watch one episode or movie, see one cool last ditch effort, and say, "HOLY CRAP starfleet can do that all the time!!!shiftone1!" Some of you need to try actually watching the series you blather about so much, because their warp fighting capabilities are much, MUCH lower than you perceive them to be. Also as stated a zillion times, the imperium isn't going to be slowly advancing at lightspeed to earth. They will use the warp.

Seconded.

Besides, if you want to play broken tactics, I'll just get on the phone to Abbadon and see if I can borrow his Blackstone Fortresses and Planet Killer. He's usually cool with it, as long as I don't scratch the paintwork.

=Chuckles= Thank you Terminus. I've noticed that Trek nerds are the ones who get the most pissed off when you say someone could beat the Federation. I think it's cause they realized that the scale of the Federation versus any other scifi civ that they can't really survive if threatened. It's quite amusing in all honesty..

But in all honesty.....to nosferatu.

1) Picard Maneuver: If the Federation has these magic ftl sensors that makes the Picard maneuver ineffective against Federation ships, why did Data have to rely on technobabble compression of deep space gasses in order to counter it? How come he didn't say, "Well, sir. I can activate the FTL sensors and see that the Stargazer is ACTUALLY right here." ?

2) Warp Combat: Alright....so quick question. DS9. That station doesn't have warp drive, does it? It's pretty much fixed in place, right? So why did the Klingons and Dominion not use this fancy, warp in, blast, warp out tactics? If the only thing stopping a fleet from doing that tactic is there enemy possessing the same warp drive....how come they didn't use it against DS9? Or why didn't the Breen use it on Earth? There are so many situation when that tactic would have been useful IF they could actually utilize it. The fact that they don't either shows that they can't do it, or it's not a viable tactic.

3) Photon torpedoes (Range). I never said they were like a lance. I said they weren't like Imperial torpedoes, and that they were more similar to the missile launchers in Imperial weapons batteries. I only compared it to a lance, when i said that the damage yield of a lance and a 200 isoton photo torp were roughly equivalent. Not to mention, sure. The photon torpedo can physically travel 1 light second, but that really doesn't matter....can they accurately TARGET something at one light second? The answer is quite simply: no. Federation ships seem to engage OTHER SHIPS at distances of a few kilometers as seen in the few major space battles Trek has shown. If they were capable of hitting targets at one light second....why didn't they do so? Why do we see Federation ships flitter around the Borg cube in First Contact instead of stay one light second away and pound it with photon torpedoes?

4) Photon Torpedo (Yield): You kind of just beat yourself there. If a 200 isoton weapon isn't even standard supply, then most likely Trek ships owuld be firing those 25 isoton weapons at Imperial ships, and we've demonstrated that an Imperial ship could take a 200 isoton weapon, then a 25 isoton weapon is going to be child's play. But ummmmmmm, what the feth does SALT have to do with any of this? I'm mildly confused by your statement there.....


If you'd like some further reading, I recommend: http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/ . The site it's from is Star Wars vs. Star Trek, but the Trek calculations and analysis are perfectly valid for our discussion here.

Also, in the latest offering of Star Trek filmography, take note that the Romulan vessel, a former mining ship, utterly destroyed a Federation peacekeeping force within moments of it's arrival. That was a mining vessel. Not a warship, or a doomsday device, but a mining vessel. Imagine, then, what a fully prepared Retribution Battleship could inflict on the same fleet. Added to the points provided by ChrisWWII above, and you'll see why such a conflict is so one-sided.