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THe GK can teleport remember. And they're an arm of the Imperium, And they can teleport through space. Onto other ships. OWNT

To the person mentioning gigatons - all that is useless if the ship you are firing at over there, is suddenly the other side of you *before* your sensors have picked them up.

Look up the PIcard manouver for what happens to ships with lightspeed sensors that face ships that can move faster than light. All that gigatons is useless unless it, you know, actually hits anything. Which it wont. Inertialess manouvering means that the UFP ships can change direction faster than the servitor can register the change, never mind actually anticipate where the subject will be. Even light speed (lances) doesnt work when the distances are big enough - the subspace sensors pick up the lance and your ship moves, so the beam misses.

The UFP ships would laugh at BFG style ideas. Marines on boarding torpedoes wouldnt get within a planetary orbit of any UFP ship!

Also phasers dont destroy anything? OK, they just hook up the disruptors that disrupt atomic bonds. Hook them up on wide beam and just start to eat ships. All while moving faster than the sensors can register you.

Quantum torpedoes are hugely more powerful than PHOTON (not proton...) torpedoes.

They DO have reliable, this timeline time travel, used many times in voyager and next gen with the various earth stories. Oh, and that good old 4th and 8th films where they went back and altered the current timeline. And the timecops are part of the Federation, like starfleet they are an agency within the organisation. Etc.

Soooo much rubbish spouted here...

Startrek does not, I repeat does not NEED planets - they dont mine resources, they simply replicate the elements they need (apart from latinum, but that is a gold-substitute and has no practical use anyway) as long as they have power - and any gas giant provides that. They have direct energy -> matter conversion. The abiltiy to build any structure from the sub-quark level up (esp if they get their nanite buddies, a certain Crusher creation, on board)

As Frazzled (i think) mentioned - the UFP thrives on technology. They are ahead of the imperium in everything bar Immaterium travel (as the warp doesnt exist int he UFP universe...) , AND, more importantly - *understand how it works and how to build more* - something the imperium cannot do.

So if they find a dormant tomb world and succeed in obtaining a bit of tech - they will understand and replicate it. And improve on it.

They also do have psykers, in many guises and power levels, so any argument predicated on "well they couldnt do X as they dont have psykers" is flawed. Fatally so.

Anyway, its all moot - like the SW vs ST each side is too entrenched. I loooove 40k, however weight of arms means nothing if you have no ability to bring those weights to bear. The tactics and abilities of the IoM do not match well to the abilities of the trek universe.

I really thing we need to look at the move advanced sections of the Imperium of Man. A squad of Grey Knights teleporting could wreck ST ships. Also, seeing as this is ONLY the Imperium vs the FoP. The Emperor spends all his time keeping Chaos from wrecking reality. And he still manages to rip holes through the galaxy (The Storm of The Emperors Wrath). Assuming he wasn't constantly fighting off the powers of Chaos, he could probably destroy the whole of the Fed in the blink of an eye.

It doesn't matter if they're fast, if the ships can't actually do any damage to 40k ships. The offensive capabilities of Star Trek ships are fairly limited compared to 40k ships.

Kilkrazy wrote:There is no Astronomican in the Star Trek universe/time so the Imperial Navy would simply be unable to navigate.

I don't see how you can win a naval campaign if your ships cannot leave port.

uh... no . You can navigate the warp without the Astronomican. The Astronomican makes it much, MUCH easier and less risky, but not impossible.

karima - they have enough difficulty with teleporting onto a planet, whereas you reckon they could teleport safely onto a starship moving at warp 9? Through Shields? Um, unlikely.

Melissia - have you seen the quoted output for quantum torpedoes? disruptors? Remember you are dealing with targetting sstems light years ahead of the imperium so they can accurately target key systems on board the imperium ship, they dont rely on *rolling freaking broadsides* as a viable tactic...

As for those saying the UFP couldnt go into the warp - so they couldnt create Geller fields? Theyd analyse the first ship to leave warp, work out the EM signature and replicate it. Like the do with everything else.

I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.

All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.

In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.

The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).

The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.

Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.

From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.

Melissia wrote:It doesn't matter if they're fast, if the ships can't actually do any damage to 40k ships. The offensive capabilities of Star Trek ships are fairly limited compared to 40k ships.

Kilkrazy wrote:There is no Astronomican in the Star Trek universe/time so the Imperial Navy would simply be unable to navigate.

I don't see how you can win a naval campaign if your ships cannot leave port.

uh... no . You can navigate the warp without the Astronomican. The Astronomican makes it much, MUCH easier and less risky, but not impossible.

Void shields don't block torpedoes. Thats nuke strikes on bare hull. or one drop of redmatter turning your battleship into eensy weensy version of itself-The Master would be proud.

incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.

All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.

In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.

The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).

The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.

Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.

From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.

Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

Nightsbane wrote:

incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.

All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.

In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.

The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).

The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.

Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.

From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.

Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).

OK, so basiacally, ST ships fly rings around 40K ships and let there planets get destroyed, while compleately failing to scratch any of the hulls of the smallest crusier?

OK, so the IoM has a new outpost with a bigger than usual pirate problem... so what?

Hold on... If we are assuming that ST exists in the IoM's distant past... (if we get over the whole "having lightseed and no warp" thing) then who is the Emperor?! Kirk? Picard? If you kill them, then the entire timeline would collapse in a puff of logic.

Listen to my self, assuming that someone could kill a Kirk/Emperor hybrid... Perish the thought!

sniperjolly wrote:OK, so basiacally, ST ships fly rings around 40K ships and let there planets get destroyed, while compleately failing to scratch any of the hulls of the smallest crusier?

OK, so the IoM has a new outpost with a bigger than usual pirate problem... so what?

Hold on... If we are assuming that ST exists in the IoM's distant past... (if we get over the whole "having lightseed and no warp" thing) then who is the Emperor?! Kirk? Picard? If you kill them, then the entire timeline would collapse in a puff of logic.

Listen to my self, assuming that someone could kill a Kirk/Emperor hybrid... Perish the thought!

Well lets leave Kirk and the Emprah out i guess.

They would have no problem "scratching the hull." if tiny bombers can destroy a battleship, and unkillable UFP cruiser could do much better. I don't know what an isoton is, but a 25 isoton round can destroy a city (memory Alpha) and quantum torpedoes are up to 200 isotons each with the Enterprise E.

sniper - and has been pointed out "barely scratching the hull" is an entirely false statement. You keep believing that though.

Again: the people who believe that the immaterium cannot be detected by UFP are correct. Once. After the first time the breach is opened and a ship comes through, the mass of subspace and better sensors will have mapped the mechanic used to open the breach, the warp beyond the breach, and the geller fields used to protect the ship.

Which is then communicated at WF 9.999 (max boosted subspace speed) to every other ship in the fleet.

Still, you keep belieiving that the 40k battelships would survive, its kinda funny.

Modquisition on. Lets all be polite, myself included.

Plus there are always people like Harry Kim - no matter how many times he dies, they always find a way to bring him back from some alternate dimension, clone, save him from the afterlife, paint a cardboard cut out of him and put it on the bridge, etc...

Perhaps Harry Kim is the Emp, since he can't be killed?

SilverMK2 wrote:Plus there are always people like Harry Kim - no matter how many times he dies, they always find a way to bring him back from some alternate dimension, clone, save him from the afterlife, paint a cardboard cut out of him and put it on the bridge, etc...

Perhaps Harry Kim is the Emp, since he can't be killed?

Close. He's Cypher.

Frazzled wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:

incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.

All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.

In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.

The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).

The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.

Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.

From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.

Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).

I thought that to be a given. Anyone who watches any ST at all, knows that it takes days and weeks for them to get anywhere. The primary fleets would not ever make it back in time to stop an invasion.

Besides, the argument that "Shields and lasers lulz!" for Star Trek is just stupid. Star Trek fanboys always claim that their ships can't be hit by anything, hence the star wars vs star trek debacle.

If you have a race of man that has the know how to in case the dead or near dead into suits or armor, live thousands of years, and create the massive structures shown...it is heavily understood that coming across a UFP ship they would figure out a way to blow it out of the sky. They aren't going to sit on their thumbs saying, "oh well guys, their shields stop our weaponry...let's go home"

Nightsbane wrote:
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

I did read the entire thread. The discussion didn’t seem to be put to bed and so I elected to add to it in hopes of swaying those who either don’t understand or willfully choose not to understand out of blind 40k devotion. I can understand your fury – it’s a purely hypothetical fantasy comparison that has no bearing on anything of relevance. If THAT’S not worth being rude and curt, what is?

I will respond by saying you don’t completely understand how 40k space travel works. A 40k ship takes days, sometimes weeks, to move to or from a systems jump point before slipping into the warp or arriving at its planetary destination. Star Trek ships simply pop into orbit around whatever they want. We could say that a federation ship has no ability to detect a 40k ship while it’s in the warp, even still, the federation’s ability to react to and annihilate approaching fleets before they’re in a position to attack a planet gives them an enormous advantage that the Imperium would be unable to overcome.

incarna wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:
Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

I did read the entire thread. The discussion didn’t seem to be put to bed and so I elected to add to it in hopes of swaying those who either don’t understand or willfully choose not to understand out of blind 40k devotion. I can understand your fury – it’s a purely hypothetical fantasy comparison that has no bearing on anything of relevance. If THAT’S not worth being rude and curt, what is?

I will respond by saying you don’t completely understand how 40k space travel works. A 40k ship takes days, sometimes weeks, to move to or from a systems jump point before slipping into the warp or arriving at its planetary destination. Star Trek ships simply pop into orbit around whatever they want. We could say that a federation ship has no ability to detect a 40k ship while it’s in the warp, even still, the federation’s ability to react to and annihilate approaching fleets before they’re in a position to attack a planet gives them an enormous advantage that the Imperium would be unable to overcome.

true to a limited point, but look what I just posted. It takes them a long time to travel. It would be days or weeks until they got back to Earth, and by then, too late.

Also this is assuming that UFP would win space battles, which I would doubt that they would. The imperium is not going to roll over after facing new technology.

Nightsbane wrote:
true to a limited point, but look what I just posted. It takes them a long time to travel. It would be days or weeks until they got back to Earth, and by then, too late.

Also this is assuming that UFP would win space battles, which I would doubt that they would. The imperium is not going to roll over after facing new technology.

The Federation isn’t going to send its entire armada off to attack the Imperium. Planets would have garrisons and defense fleets. Whenever an Imperial attack group emerged in the system the defense fleets would engage it and send a distress message to nearby attack fleets. With the maneuverability issues outlined in this discussion the UFP should be able to wreak untold devastation before the fleet even gets close enough to their target to attack.

I know you doubt that the UFP would win space battles but I disagree. The UFP star ship is to a Imperial warship as a F-22 Raptor is unto a Messerschmitt Bf 109. The Imperium will certainly not roll over and die but they will be defeated.

While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.

Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it. they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly. They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.

Luke_Prowler wrote:While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.

Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it.

This is a misunderstanding of the technological state of the Imperium. The foundation of the Imperial analogy is the Dark Ages – a state of superstition, technological stagnation, and intellectual decline. If an Imperial Titan is destroyed it cannot be replaced. The knowledge to build new things is severely limited by both the information that’s available and a zealously superstitious culture.

Luke_Prowler wrote:they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information but this is simply incorrect. Even if you’re exaggerating, the exaggeration is ludicrous… regardless, the point is moot. A modern thermonuclear missile capable of unleashing around fifty times the destruction of Hiroshima is housed in a casing about the size of a large dog.

Luke_Prowler wrote:They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.

No one is disputing the destructive capability of the imperial weapons, the discussion is largely whether the imperium can hit a target that basically has unlimited faster-than-light hit and run capability. By the time a Nova cannon is moved into position to target a Federation star ship, that ship will have unleashed a volley of torpedoes, warped out, and warped back in again ten times over.

Assuming the Imperial ship even gets a chance to fire it’s weapons the Fed ship is gone before the projectile reaches it’s destination… the Imperial ship if left lumbering along while photon torpedo after photon torpedo slams into it with impunity – to say nothing of phasers which will eventually wear down the ships defenses and slice it apart.

Luke_Prowler wrote:While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'll try to shed some light into the subject.

Quite a few people have mentioned that the UFP are much more technologically advanced that the Imperium. The thing is, the Imperium are as tech savvy as the UFP, but are simply superstitious about it. they also have more of it, and at bigger scale. the Enterprise's proton torpedo are about man size. the average 40k's torpedo are about skyscraper sized. now scale the ships accordingly. They have laser Lances that can wreck smaller ships in one shot. If anything, I'd like to see what the UFP's answer to nova cannons are. I also hear that UFP ships are magically faster. at warp speed, sure, but they can't fire at that speed, I i doubt they can use their scanners either, so they would have to know where the imperial ships are ahead of time, and I doubt tha they to much faster that the other ships at impulse speed.

You're thinking 2 dimensionally.

The UFP's answer to the Nova cannon is that it won't be there. UFP ships will literally never be able to be targetted because the UFP ships will be dancing ftster than light. The eldar give Imperials fits because their ships are faster and their location is blurry. Thats nothing when the enemy's location is nonexistent. The only think the imperium ships will know is the explosions when the torpedoes impact, and then they die.

A more apt comparison than above would be a sailing ship of the line fighting at night against a Vought Corsair. Sure the ship can hear the plane but so what. You can't hit it. meanwhile it pounds you to jelly with 20MM fire and rockets. It can't take you out in one broadside but it will destory the ship's ability to fight in a few passes.

I can't beleive this thread is still going, with people debating about the exact same things.

lets see if I can sum this up in a nutshell....

40K fans beleive that with their superior numbers, firepower, ground force, space marines, and technology, they would win out over the UFP

UFP fan beleive that IoM weapons won't damage their ships because they are too fast, could sense an imperial fleet from awhile away, their shields are better, and that tactically, they will outsmart the IoM and make their paltry numbers make up for it by taking out xxx amount of ships for every one of theirs.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've watched Star trek episodes....pretty much all seasons, from TNG - Voyager. Not once have I seen a fleet of feds come out of warp, blast away an enemy fleet, hit their warp engines to go into warp so they dont get hit, then warp back, rinse and repeat. I think If i remember correctly they can't do this because once they put shields up and engage weapons, they take away too much energy from warp engines. Not to mention if they disengaged they would be left open to be destroyed. No commander would drop shields, turn around, and take the chance of warping, leaving themselves open for attack for up to 10 seconds or more. Im not saying this tactic would work...im just saying they would most likely lose alot of ships inthe process. Oh wait. that won't happen because IoM weapons are too weak and unsophisticated to break their shields. My question is this...If the imperium can take on Eldar and win (technology which would be at least on par with UFP, if not much more advanced, to be fair) then why would the UFP be any different? Remember Eldar = Former rulers of Galaxy. just cause they lost numbers doesn't mean they lost their technology.

Not to mention, does anyone honestly and truly beleive that the IoM doesn't have tracking and targeting systems? during battle UFP ships are usually on impulse, not warp. Even at max impulse , do they honeslty think they will out run an imperial ship? It's time for all to just face the facts...The IoM may not have every little gadget the UFP does, but they're not in the stone age either. They have shields as well, torpedos, las cannons, many different hosts of weapons, so does UFP. I don't know why people are still trying to deny that either side is not going to be capable of destroying the other....UFP lose ships to many different races of aliens, even some who's technology isn't as on par with theirs.

simple fact is that both sides would find a way to kill each other effectively. the UFP arn't a bunch of idiots, neither are the IoM. There would be huge battles, tons of losses on both sides. Anyone who says different, whether they be on the 40K side or UFP side, is just being ignorant and won't see the other side of the story.

nosferatu1001 wrote:karima - they have enough difficulty with teleporting onto a planet, whereas you reckon they could teleport safely onto a starship moving at warp 9? Through Shields? Um, unlikely.

They CAN. In Dark Creed, they teleport through space, through shields into an infernus class ship which is protected by a psyker (an this is no weak psyker. This is a LOL I PICK UP MARINE SQUADS/DREADS AND CHUCK EM ABOUT AND COVER THE WHOLE OF MY SHIP WITH A PSYCHIC SHIELD AND BLOW UP 13 ENEMY PSYKERS AT THE SAME TIME Psyker . And by the way, to all you people saying that UFPs light travel will own the imperium- A cairn tombship travels faster than light, and it still took ages to reach the boros gate. I win

Gorgarak wrote:I can't beleive this thread is still going, with people debating about the exact same things.

lets see if I can sum this up in a nutshell....

40K fans beleive that with their superior numbers, firepower, ground force, space marines, and technology, they would win out over the UFP

UFP fan beleive that IoM weapons won't damage their ships because they are too fast, could sense an imperial fleet from awhile away, their shields are better, and that tactically, they will outsmart the IoM and make their paltry numbers make up for it by taking out xxx amount of ships for every one of theirs.

I don't know if it's just me, but I've watched Star trek episodes....pretty much all seasons, from TNG - Voyager. Not once have I seen a fleet of feds come out of warp, blast away an enemy fleet, hit their warp engines to go into warp so they dont get hit, then warp back, rinse and repeat. I think If i remember correctly they can't do this because once they put shields up and engage weapons, they take away too much energy from warp engines. Not to mention if they disengaged they would be left open to be destroyed. No commander would drop shields, turn around, and take the chance of warping, leaving themselves open for attack for up to 10 seconds or more. Im not saying this tactic would work...im just saying they would most likely lose alot of ships inthe process. Oh wait. that won't happen because IoM weapons are too weak and unsophisticated to break their shields. My question is this...If the imperium can take on Eldar and win (technology which would be at least on par with UFP, if not much more advanced, to be fair) then why would the UFP be any different? Remember Eldar = Former rulers of Galaxy. just cause they lost numbers doesn't mean they lost their technology.

Not to mention, does anyone honestly and truly beleive that the IoM doesn't have tracking and targeting systems? during battle UFP ships are usually on impulse, not warp. Even at max impulse , do they honeslty think they will out run an imperial ship? It's time for all to just face the facts...The IoM may not have every little gadget the UFP does, but they're not in the stone age either. They have shields as well, torpedos, las cannons, many different hosts of weapons, so does UFP. I don't know why people are still trying to deny that either side is not going to be capable of destroying the other....UFP lose ships to many different races of aliens, even some who's technology isn't as on par with theirs.

simple fact is that both sides would find a way to kill each other effectively. the UFP arn't a bunch of idiots, neither are the IoM. There would be huge battles, tons of losses on both sides. Anyone who says different, whether they be on the 40K side or UFP side, is just being ignorant and won't see the other side of the story.

I am arguing on behalf of the Federation and I consider myself a 40k fan much more than a Star Trek fan. I know you’ve watched all the Star Trek episodes but I think you’d have to agree that many of the Star Trek writers are kinda dumb – possessing a high degree of technological and scientific understanding but lacking in practical common sense.

I for one will never get over why Fed captains don’t simply beam unrecognized life signs aboard the ship into space during a boarding action. In one STNG episode two Klingons tear-ass through the Enterprise whopping on every security guard they encounter. The whole time Picard coulda just had the two Klingon life signs beamed into a holding cell. In episodes where the Trekkies are constantly beamed aboard Borg ships, instead of fiddling with all the scanners and relays and whatnot they could just have Jori whip up a nuke (I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard being that it’s like 400-year-old tech) and beam it into the middle of the Borg cube.

From a tactical/military perspective I don’t think the Star trek writers are as finely honed as your average 13-year-old 40k player. So strategic comparisons fall apart pretty quickly.

Nightsbane wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:

incarna wrote:I’ve been browsing this thread on and off and I have some points to make. Let me preface by saying I’m not a huge Star trek fan. I like Star Trek, I really really like 40k.

All fanboi Kirk/Spock/Picard/Warf/Data-worship aside – The federation wins from both a purely military perspective and also from a cultural perspective. Both genre’s ships have weapons capable of destroying one another. Bothe genre’s ships have defenses capable of protecting them.

In the 40k universe, ships fight like 3D naval battles in the void. Titanic warships plod methodically forward bringing their guns, missiles, fighters, and bombers to bear on the enemy reminiscent of a World War 2 naval battle. There are no sophisticated weapons guidance systems, sensitive sensor arrays, or instant battlefield teleportation via warp speed. Just a big bruiser of a ship lumbering into combat and thundering away with its armament.

The federation can sense a 40k ship from light years away, warp into position, unleash a volley of photon torpedoes, and warp away before the 40k crew even comprehends what’s happening. Star Trek battles happen at speeds that boggle the mind. Boarding actions wouldn’t even be possible and, in the unfathomably rare occasions that they do happen, the Trekkies just lock onto the intruders and beam them into space (I never understood why this didn’t happen more often in the show).

The disparity gets even more severe when you consider 40K logistics and supply lines and how vulnerable they’d be compared to the minimal supply lines of the Federation whose ships don’t rely nearly as heavily on supply chains as those of the 40k universe.

Land wars would be much more difficult for the Feds as the Imperium has superior capabilities in that area. The Federation would have to resort to some pretty ruthless un-Federation-like tactics in order to win.

From a cultural perspective the Federation wins as well. The countless worlds under brutal oppression would join the Federated war effort very quickly. That’s probably how the Feds would eventually win out – by isolating every planet from orbit and turning the population on its ruling class. Even Space marines can’t hold out for ever without supplies.

Maybe you should have actually READ the WHOLE thread instead of part of it, because this was already covered. IMP doesn't use lightspeed, they use the warp. There would be nothing to detect. As soon as they headed off they would disappear off of any sensors and reappear at earth. The battle would be over with a surrender in under an hour.

Inversely it would be helpful if you read the appropriate fluff. Warp capable ships can't jump right next to a planet, they have to be far away from gravity wells and other phenomena. This generally requires several hours to several days to get within firing solution of a planet (BFG, fluff). Once they hit real space its watch the battleship burn time. They would literally never be able to see a UFP ship because the UFP is boogying faster than light, and their torpedoes are not stopped by shields (BFG).

I thought that to be a given. Anyone who watches any ST at all, knows that it takes days and weeks for them to get anywhere. The primary fleets would not ever make it back in time to stop an invasion.

Besides, the argument that "Shields and lasers lulz!" for Star Trek is just stupid. Star Trek fanboys always claim that their ships can't be hit by anything, hence the star wars vs star trek debacle.

If you have a race of man that has the know how to in case the dead or near dead into suits or armor, live thousands of years, and create the massive structures shown...it is heavily understood that coming across a UFP ship they would figure out a way to blow it out of the sky. They aren't going to sit on their thumbs saying, "oh well guys, their shields stop our weaponry...let's go home"

It took the Imperium 7,000 years to come up with the idea of putting a twin heavy bolter on top of the Rhino.

In STOS the Enterprise was in combat with a Klingon cruiser. The Klingon cruiser was doing warp speed strafing runs. No big deal but the Enterprise was boobytrooped and couldn't do same until Scotty put downt he bottle for a minute and pressed the GO button. They were getting pounded because they literally couldn't pivot the ship and its guns fast enough to get a bead.

Picard maneuver is short warp hop that has the effect of putting the ship in two places at once, and more importantly appearing/firing point blank in front of you.

In multiple engagements Enterprise is firing and being fired upon by opposing ships at warp speed. Torpedoes are specifically noted as being capable of being fired at warp speed. The imperium literally can't track that.

The Imperium is too myriad to be beaten by your puny federation!
Various threats to the FoP
-The Grey Knights going LOL and teleporting and owning
-The Emperor blasting them to smithereens
-The Daemonhost Cherubael going LOL I CAN KILL WARLORD TITANS BY FLYING AT IT REALLY FAST. WHEN I'M WAAY BELOW STRENGTH. I EAT SHIPS RAWR!
-Assassins
-Psykers (much more prevalent in Imperium).
-Galen Marek pulling their Star Destroyers out of the sky. (Had to say it )
-Heat seeking missiles (gothic war omnibus)
-Seeing into the future.
-Void torpedos (I rip a hole in spaaace )
-The Templars Psykologis. (Infiltration/sapping enemy morale ftw)
-Officio Sabatorum (need explaining?)

for one will never get over why Fed captains don’t simply beam unrecognized life signs aboard the ship into space during a boarding action. In one STNG episode two Klingons tear-ass through the Enterprise whopping on every security guard they encounter. The whole time Picard coulda just had the two Klingon life signs beamed into a holding cell. In episodes where the Trekkies are constantly beamed aboard Borg ships, instead of fiddling with all the scanners and relays and whatnot they could just have Jori whip up a nuke (I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard being that it’s like 400-year-old tech) and beam it into the middle of the Borg cube.

I agree 100 percent. Maybe they cant do it because of the signature on their com badges or something..maybe they consantly keep enemy teleporters from locking on and warping them away. Thats all I could think of.

In STOS the Enterprise was in combat with a Klingon cruiser. The Klingon cruiser was doing warp speed strafing runs. No big deal but the Enterprise was boobytrooped and couldn't do same until Scotty put downt he bottle for a minute and pressed the GO button. They were getting pounded because they literally couldn't pivot the ship and its guns fast enough to get a bead.

Picard maneuver is short warp hop that has the effect of putting the ship in two places at once, and more importantly appearing/firing point blank in front of you.

In multiple engagements Enterprise is firing and being fired upon by opposing ships at warp speed. Torpedoes are specifically noted as being capable of being fired at warp speed. The imperium literally can't track that.

Touche. It sounds completly doable. The one thing I wonder is could an entire fleet of star ships do that at once? or how many times could they do it before the imperium got used to the tactic? Im not saying they would. Im just curious to see how it all would turn out. It would be funny seeing some imperial captain shooting his pilots on the ship because they can't track a UFP ship. lol. It would be a funny sight.

If only Macharius was still alive. You'd actually just lose. Not even GF