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Frazzled wrote:And yet they can't beat Tau, or Demiurg, or DE. They can't improve their technology. Most of their worlds are craptacular backwards places unfit for humans here. Rule is barely maintained through a stalinist level of oppression on most worlds. Show the people an opportunity and everything changes. The UFP adapts, their imperium just loses worlds to...orks.

Imperium can't beat the Tau? Even the Tau codex admits their victory was against a toenail of the Imperium, and if the Imperium seriously cared, it could throw enough ships and men in their direction that all the rail guns and communist ideology in the world couldn't help them. Tau only exist due to the same ridiculous plot armor you're applying to the Federation.

Demiurg have no home base to speak of, they are small bands of nomads that live in their ships on the very farthest fringes of the universe where the Imperium couldn't give less of a damn. Dark Eldar have one planet in the depths of the Webway, from which they launch brief raids and turn tail as soon as the Imperium takes notice. These civilizations are mosquitoes that the Imperium can't be bothered to swat because its hands are to busy stroking itself.

Orks would overrun the UFP in a week, theirs is a warrior culture that has more going for them than a ridged asscrack for a forehead (and yet those same ridged asscrack foreheads keep giving the UFP all sorts of grief on a daily basis).

The Unending wrote:The fine people at factpile (a website that has actual debating rules for what is and isn't a logical fallacy) have already spoken on the matter.

http://www.factpile.com/warhammer-40k-vs-star-trek.htm/comment-page-1#comments

Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)

Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.

http://www.factpile.com/factpile-debating-rules.htm

if we want to have a serious debate I suggest we use them

Wait a serious debate on Star Trek vs. 40K?

Nightsbane wrote:You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*

...and the hardcore 40kers continue to remain unbathed, brush some cheetos crumbs off of their huge pot bellies before reaching for their mountain dew, and quote directly out of their rulebook a "rule" that says something about the "inexhaustable armies of the emperor".

NERD WAR!

Right, but the fat cheeto nerd could beat up the sniffly skinny nerd, if only through sheer bulk!

Frazzled wrote:

The Unending wrote:The fine people at factpile (a website that has actual debating rules for what is and isn't a logical fallacy) have already spoken on the matter.

http://www.factpile.com/warhammer-40k-vs-star-trek.htm/comment-page-1#comments

Highlights: Star Trek universe was a joke. The only defence they have is Q and even that is being debated saying the Chaos Gods would murdelize him (which they would)

Here we have the debating rules for Factpile for those who want to see them.

http://www.factpile.com/factpile-debating-rules.htm

if we want to have a serious debate I suggest we use them

Wait a serious debate on Star Trek vs. 40K?

Well as serious as two groups of nerds arguing about two fictional universe (one of which severly underpowered compared to the other) while posting pictures of peoples heads exploding can be

(I was just hoping to avoid alot of the MY SCI-FI UNIVERSE IS BETTER THAN YOUR SCI-FI UNIVERSE that al....most of us would rather be without)

The impirals will think of the UFP as a group of rebels, alien-lovers,... Put really the impirals would just nuke there small amout of worlds to a big ball of ash.
No contest .

I like both universes myself, but just the scale alone would make Star Trek cry, nevermind what's IN it.

A better comparison would be Supreme Commander versus 40k I think, but even then, SupCom shows nothing of what each faction's space-based assets are, though they DO have them.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:You can't ever have a real discussion about this topic...because trekkies always sniff their running noses, push up their broken glasses and tell you about the science of star trek being supreme to all. It doesn't matter if it is 40k, star wars, or something else you will always hear *sniff* genesis torpedo, lasers" *chuckle chuckle*

...and the hardcore 40kers continue to remain unbathed, brush some cheetos crumbs off of their huge pot bellies before reaching for their mountain dew, and quote directly out of their rulebook a "rule" that says something about the "inexhaustable armies of the emperor".

NERD WAR!

yet both are crushed under the power of unsated lust brought on by an army of star wars virginity brigade.

Ok here's my take on this, as I am a fan of both.

First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they? Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless. My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.

Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.

On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.

In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.

IGLannister wrote:Ok here's my take on this, as I am a fan of both.

First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they? Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless. My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.

Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.

On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.

In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.

Yield of UFP proton torpedos: 24 megaton
Yield of IoM missles: 610 gigaton
Strenth of Constitution-class shields: 2160 megatons
2160 megatons<<<<<610 gigatons
Chance of UFP ship survival: 0%
Pointing out how laughably wrong your idea of IoM and UFP firepower is: Pricless
Idea that numbers have no place in this battle: Mindless

IGLannister wrote:Ok here's my take on this, as I am a fan of both.

I am too, although I grow sick of the gack some Star Trek fans (Luckily not anyone on this thread) say. "Star Trek predicts the future! It is real! Star Wars? 40K? Doctor Who? Lame and unrealistic compared to Star Trek's SCIENCE!"

IGLannister wrote:First and formost, numbers count for nothing in this contest. You can have all the trillions of footsoldiers you want, but if they can't land, what good are they?

Fleet crew. Also, they can serve as occupying armies for refueling stations and conquered planets. And they can serve as workers to build spacecraft.

The simple truth is, numbers matter. And the UFP is tiny.

IGLannister wrote: Space Marines. Yeah, they're hella badass. You don't mess with the space marine. But, there again, if your marines don't land, useless.

Just board 'em.

IGLannister wrote: My point being, the IoM doesntcome close to Sector 001. They don't have the tech, the ships, or the knowhow.

Tech? They have tech, it's just not the same kind of tech Star Trek has; apples and oranges, you know? Ships? Imperium ships easily outclass Starfleet models in firepower, and their voidshields are tough. Plus, they actually HAVE weapons for Exterminatus. Knowhow? Both sides are incredibly stupid, but one is more blood-thirsting.

IGLannister wrote:Second, and this is key: this would be a purely space-fought battle. If the UFP had any, and I mean ANY backstory on the IoM, the pre-emptive strike would be terrible to behold. I don't think for a second that the UFP would play around with these boys, and Starfleet ships alone would cripple/destroy anything the IoM has floating out there. Pure naval battle. Drop pods would be destroyed before they even hit earths orbit.

Let's ignore that Imperial ships are stronger and that Astartes often board. Let's also ignore that if the UFP want to loot any resources or hold ground, they're going to have to do land-based warfare, which they suck at.

IGLannister wrote:On the other hand, if the UFP tries diplo first, they might be in trouble. A massive Imperial strike would easily take earth and Vulcan if troops landed, as starfleet has nada for troops. UFP Diplomacy = Horrifying assault before they can do anything to counter.

Diplo or a bloody first strike... Guess what the United Federation of Pansies is more likely to do?

IGLannister wrote:In the end, UFP all the way. Picard on your side gives you at MINIMUM an 85% chance of success.

Nah, Kirk all the way. But the Imperium is too damn big, powerful,

Sorry if I sound aggressive, but I always find topics like this so much fun.

40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!

Federation has Q on their side.
Nothing like tons of God Moding everywhere.

Necrosis wrote:Federation has Q on their side.
Nothing like tons of God Moding everywhere.

Q and his continuum aren't part of the Federation. He chooses sides on a whim, and has often harmed the Federation.

If you include him, give us all of 40k's deities.

Many of you are forgetting swarm examples in ST like the borg. It doesn't matter if you have the BEST projectile defense systems ever imagined, if you don't/can't keep up with the rate of invasion.

It's the same problem marines or eldar face with ork and tyranid invasion. It's easy to look at it from one side and think, EASY WIN! The technology will shoot them to pieces! BUT horde armies overwhelm, and just throw forces at gunfire until some get through.

This is what it would be like for the feds. They simply could not keep up the the waves of assault.

You guys are also talking like the warp=lightspeed. IT DOES NOT. The imperium could enter the warp, emerge at Earth and drop pod the **** out of it before half the distress calls could even be transmitted. The federation are total *** at ground combat as shown time and time again.

Nightsbane wrote:You guys are also talking like the warp=lightspeed. IT DOES NOT. The imperium could enter the warp, emerge at Earth and drop pod the **** out of it before half the distress calls could even be transmitted. The federation are total *** at ground combat as shown time and time again.

Warp travel is actually many times faster than light (In both fictions); if they actually were lightspeed, they'd take centuries to move tiny distances. However, their combat speeds are definitely sublight.

Also, another advantage of ground combat: You can capture specific persons, such as Earth's politicians. That way, you force a surrender much easier.

Note that, while the USA uses planes in its military, the significant force is ground-based infantry. Why? Because planes (Or spaceships) cannot HOLD ground or occupy. It's the same problem seen all the way back in World War 1 with tanks striking into the enemy but falling due to not being able to hold their positions.

sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!

I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.

The Unending wrote:

sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!

I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.

Star Trek ships are NOT 400 kilometers long. Maybe you meant meters?

Necroman wrote:

The Unending wrote:

sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!

I actually saw something that said that Ship mounted Lascannons Shoot beams 40km in radius and Star Trek Ships are 400km in length. But I couldn't find a source. If true you would literally be destroying a tenth of the ship with every shot.

Star Trek ships are NOT 400 kilometers long. Maybe you meant meters?

like I said I couldn't find a source (and they may have said meters now that I think about it)

As entertaining as an Imperium versus Star Trek debate is, shouldn't this be banished, er, I mean, moved to the Background forum, so that it can keep the previous Star Trek vs. 40k thread company?

But on topic, the Imperium is essentially a sleeping, lobotomized dinosaur with leprosy. Sure, it's a big, scary dinosaur and there are ships in its navy that could obliterate planets and it has a big enough fleet that if it could concentrate on any one of its enemies it would win easily. Yet, the Tau are still there, and Orks are still there, and the Eldar are still there, and on and on and on.

The Federation would win because the Imperium would tear itself apart, again, and the Federation would crawl in and "help rebuild".

solkan wrote:As entertaining as an Imperium versus Star Trek debate is, shouldn't this be banished, er, I mean, moved to the Background forum, so that it can keep the previous Star Trek vs. 40k thread company?

But on topic, the Imperium is essentially a sleeping, lobotomized dinosaur with leprosy. Sure, it's a big, scary dinosaur and there are ships in its navy that could obliterate planets and it has a big enough fleet that if it could concentrate on any one of its enemies it would win easily. Yet, the Tau are still there, and Orks are still there, and the Eldar are still there, and on and on and on.

The Federation would win because the Imperium would tear itself apart, again, and the Federation would crawl in and "help rebuild".

Because they are all fighting the Imperium at the same time. Duh. The Tau would be obliterated by a full force Imperium. They ADMIT they would be obliterated by a full force Imperium.

The Federation is just like the Tau, only without a good ground army and with transporters. The Imperium is not going to shake itself to pieces fighting the UFP unless the Imperium is also facing its other enemies, and if the other enemies WERE present the UFP would just as likely be annihilated. There's certainly no hope of them rebuilding an Imperium that is overrun by Orks, demons, chaos space marines, etc.

The whole argument here doesn't make sense. "The UFP win because they let other guys who are not part of the UFP fight for them."

Back on the topic of time travel, Imperium does have reliable time travel; the three way door. In Ravenor Rogue, Ravenor gives it specific locations to go in time. All you need is a powerful psyker and you can bring and army to Earth ( or any other Federation planet, for that matter) and wipe it out. Even though they would wipe out the Federation Fleet, they can just send troops directly to the planet without the Federation knowing until they strike.

General Seric wrote:Back on the topic of time travel, Imperium does have reliable time travel; the three way door. In Ravenor Rogue, Ravenor gives it specific locations to go in time. All you need is a powerful psyker and you can bring and army to Earth ( or any other Federation planet, for that matter) and wipe it out. Even though they would wipe out the Federation Fleet, they can just send troops directly to the planet without the Federation knowing until they strike.

Also using time travel is strictly forbidden by the UFP.

Saying that they would simply hop around time and fix it would not work for two reasons.

1. It's against their laws.

2. The Imperial forces would not exist in that timeline until they arrived. Going back would accomplish next to nothing.

sniperjolly wrote:40K, we have projectiles bigger than most of your warships!

This +1.

I'm not entirely certain, but I think the largest Federation ship is what... half a mile long? Has maybe 4-5 phaser banks and 2 torpedo tubes?

Average battleship in 40k is miles long, fires shells the size of skyscrapers, and fires them in volleys.

Hell, even the Borg wouldn't be able to stand up to that (each cube is 3km long). Their shields are A: keyed to energy weapons if I understand it right (the enterprise attacked them with some sort of anti-matter or plasma weapon from the disk, looked like fireworks), and even if they weren't, we're talking shells longer than most federation ships that are mostly solid.

Oh, and to the person mentioning that the lance batteries are 40km wide, you probably got the distance mixed up. That would imply a lance battery is miles wide, and since we're not talking the SDF-1 here (for you robotech fans ) I could easily see 40m wide. Either way that's a big chunk out of a ship that is designed with thin spindly connections between the various sections.

Everyone is going off the assumption that *POOF* the federation appears in the halo zone or something (and doesn't get eaten by 'nids the first week on the job), but what if, lets say, *POOF!* imperium is on top of the UFP instead. IMHO there woulden't be any contest. Faced with none of its old enemys, a face wreaking crusade of five entire crusiers and a battle barge (the size of the damocles gulf crusade against the tau that got called off halfway through wrecking the faces off the entire speices) walks up and invades the hell out of the feds.

Thanks for your tact, necroman. It seems that some others on this forum seem to lack the same conversational skills. But what can one expect from years sealed away in a cave with no one to talk to except your super-cool models?

*coughtheunendingcouchcouch*

excuse me. It seems I've caught a small chill...

There is no Astronomican in the Star Trek universe/time so the Imperial Navy would simply be unable to navigate.

I don't see how you can win a naval campaign if your ships cannot leave port.

Wait, I thought this was imperium vs UFP... The astronomicon is a part of the imperium, wouldent it sensibly be included in the package? If not, then yeah, navigators heads would explode, deamons would infest the hulks, the imperium would collapse and the feds would be up against ravening hordes of deamons and possesed crewmen. Good job!

You can still navigate without it, it just means that to do so safely, you need to do it in smaller jumps.

sniperjolly wrote:Wait, I thought this was imperium vs UFP... The astronomicon is a part of the imperium, wouldent it sensibly be included in the package? If not, then yeah, navigators heads would explode, deamons would infest the hulks, the imperium would collapse and the feds would be up against ravening hordes of deamons and possesed crewmen. Good job!

It's the Imperium using their advanced time-travel capability to go back to the 23rd century in order to see if they are tougher than the UFP.

Obviously there was no Astronomican in the 23rd Century.