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ChrisCP wrote:And we are saying, it nice to let people know when you're 'house ruling'

Agreed. When I house rule something, it will be known, but since I haven't house ruled once in any video or map battle report yet, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

To be honest many people have different view points on the subject of the baron. It HAS not been proven to be true one way or another. There for how HIS group uses it is just as valid as any other. There for no need to A.) Make a rules discussion out of it. B.) Imply that he should make a notation of it at this stage. (Its a GW game... So with how the rules are written you would have to do that with tons of units and rules. That it would read more like a legal document then a battle report. )

As Buffo said fun games, nuff said. Take from it what you will and apply what ever side you take on rules discussions concerning RAW vs RAI arguments and modify them internally. Agree with the mods.

Anyway. Buffo, I played with the beasts today. Using the fun little maxed out bat squad. Nothing better then seeing your opponent's eyes pop with 60 rending attacks. They are a bit fast as well! Are you planning to use razorwings and void ravens as well? I assume yes, but don't really know.

Also what are you opinion of the Bloodbrides? They look evil if used right but do you think they are competitive vs the other elites slots?

Sha1emade wrote:Anyway. Buffo, I played with the beasts today. Using the fun little maxed out bat squad. Nothing better then seeing your opponent's eyes pop with 60 rending attacks. They are a bit fast as well!

My Beastmen units run as the following

5 Beastmasters
5 Kymarae
2 Clawed Fiends
4 Razor Flocks

I love this unit. It is so fast, and so much fun!

Are you planning to use razorwings and void ravens as well?

I have played a game versus Space Wolves with triple Razorwings.... I won't spoil it, but Razorwings kited out for anti-infantry is extremely powerful! It'll be up soon!

Also what are you opinion of the Bloodbrides? They look evil if used right but do you think they are competitive vs the other elites slots?

I love them!

For the same cost as Wyches in the old DE codex, they got a +1 LD and +1 Attack. That right there makes them worth it.

Also, triple Shardnets is so nice. Making a Hive Tyrant attack only once every turn is oh so sweet.

Try sticking a Clone field Archon, or even Urien, with Bloodbrides and watch as your opponent cannot get any attacks off on your IC model It is pretty sweet negating attacks on your IC. Urien is double nice because he just heals any wounds he takes anyway!

I will try some of those suggestions.

I only tried the beastmasters because you made them sound fun. I had some chaos hound models so I thought I would give them a try. Will try your combo and see how it works, it does seem like a great way to run them. Just need some suitable proxies. I was thinking what you said with bloodbrides but have yet to try it. Good to see you having some success with them. I have not run into a unit that does not work well yet but have not had the luxury to try as many as you have.

Your reports are like cliff notes. Many things look good / bad on paper. Experience with them in a game situation is a totally different ball game however.

Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

BuFFo wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:My biggest concern is that the lists you're playing against don't look like serious competitive lists - the kind that traditionally make DE wince.

Mech IG. Spacewolf razorback spam. Blood angel razorback spam/predator spam. Mech IG. Also Mech IG. 7+ chimeras with bigger guns for support.

\

1) My experiment is for me to learn the ins and outs of the new Dark Eldar units.

2) I have played, what you consider, WAAC lists and I have no problem beating them/nor interest in playing them. I am not doing this experiment to win games. I am doing it so I know how to use Reavers, Hellions, Scourges, all the units I never used in the last book.

3) By reading your signature, I can tell you play to win. This is fine, and I respect that, but in my area, winning takes a back seat for fun.

I knew the kind of responses I would get by posting this on Dakka. Bottom line is, nothing I field and nothing my opponent fields will ever be WAAC enough for the posters on Dakka. I can fight an army YOU consider WAAC, and I will get 10 people telling me my opponent is an idiot/fool/ignorant/noob for fielding unit x or unit y.

My blog is for your average 40k hobbyist that wants to have fun. They want to know what units work/don't work for THEM before making any purchases.

Want to beat those lists you mentioned? Spam out Blasters in a Kabal list or spam out Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades in a Cult list. Done. The only difference is WAAC IG. Whoever goes first wins.

- edit -

Only I have a WAAC IG army in my entire area. All the other IG armies are not up to what you consider WAAC. This means you won't be seeing a fight against a Chimera Army on my blog because I physically can't.

I will not play with myself either

OP: Stop referring to WAAC. Win At All Cost means doing ANYTHING to win. At ALL cost. There's a HUGE difference between being a competitive gamer and being a WAAC gamer. A chimera heavy list is a potentially competitive list. There is no such thing as a WAAC list, there are only WAAC gamers. Whether or not you have cheaters and WAAC gamers in your area or not is irrelevant, my concern remains the same - the lists you're playing against don't feel like real challenges to the capabilities of the Dark Eldar. They don't push the envelope or exploit for weaknesses. If your goal is to find out how to use those units - Reavers, Hellions, Scourges....shouldn't you be putting them to the test against armies that can test them?

I'm not discouraging you from writing battle reports, but my agenda in reading battle reports is to see how Dark Eldar can fare under different conditions, how they can prevail through different challenges.....to look for things I haven't thought of, and see how other people succeeded or failed - and without serious testing of your codex or its abilities by what the majority of people are running these days, its difficult to get value out of a batrep.

Don't find yourself a WAAC gamer to throw yourself against, but please pit yourself against a couple things that typically challenge DE. Mech IG being one of them.

Necroagogo wrote:Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

That's because they really aren't any good. I've made plenty of lists so far out of the new codex, and there's three units I've never used:

Hekatrix Bloodbrides: They aren't really bad, I've just not been able to really find a use for them.
Beastmasters: This unit confuses the hell out of me, I'm not really sure what it's place is, and the lack of interesting modelling ideas doesn't help
Mandrakes: Bad

Necroagogo wrote:Hey BuFFo .. how are you finding Mandrakes? Maybe I'm missing something but nothing about them screams 'must have!' to me ... although the models are extremely nice.

You see, if people played Pinning as the main rule book has it, then the unit would be fine, but people want to play pinning with its super nerfed iteration in the FAQ, so I see no point to play with this unit outside some outflanking shenanigans.

I will be play testing this unit a few times though.

Dashofpepper wrote:OP: Stop referring to WAAC. Win At All Cost means doing ANYTHING to win. At ALL cost. There's a HUGE difference between being a competitive gamer and being a WAAC gamer. A chimera heavy list is a potentially competitive list. There is no such thing as a WAAC list, there are only WAAC gamers. Whether or not you have cheaters and WAAC gamers in your area or not is irrelevant, my concern remains the same - the lists you're playing against don't feel like real challenges to the capabilities of the Dark Eldar. They don't push the envelope or exploit for weaknesses. If your goal is to find out how to use those units - Reavers, Hellions, Scourges....shouldn't you be putting them to the test against armies that can test them?

I'm not discouraging you from writing battle reports, but my agenda in reading battle reports is to see how Dark Eldar can fare under different conditions, how they can prevail through different challenges.....to look for things I haven't thought of, and see how other people succeeded or failed - and without serious testing of your codex or its abilities by what the majority of people are running these days, its difficult to get value out of a batrep.

Don't find yourself a WAAC gamer to throw yourself against, but please pit yourself against a couple things that typically challenge DE. Mech IG being one of them.

Nice opinion. Just take a minute to stop and breathe, and remember, it is just your opinion.

Not to derail too much, but I agree to an extent. Lists have varying levels of competitiveness. I have had great games being stomped by very hard lists and I have had awful games against soft lists piloted by WAAC gamers.

I think the important piece to take out of it is your play group is composed of great players who do not fall into this WAAC category. Their lists may not be as hard as some people want to see, but it looks like your games are tons of fun.

In general, thanks for sharing them with us.

I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate.

Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you want to talk about the Duke's rules. Stop dragging this thread off topic, when the thread's originator has expressed his opinion and rationale and indicated that he would prefer not to debate it further here.

Mannahnin wrote:I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate. Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you care that much.

No, not at all, because in the context of who I was playing, they were WAAC players.

I am not here to debate the meaning of WAAC because there is none. Everyone has their own opinion at to what it means.

What I am saying is that in some of the games I have played, and some of the the people I have played, WAAC fits them perfectly because they make a list just to win. Not to be fair, not to make the game fun for BOTH players, but just to win.

Now if you guys want WAAC to include an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win, then that is fine, but I am not.

I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

I don't see anything negative about such a term.

BuFFo wrote:
...an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win...

This made me laugh. I would hate to have to buy new tires.

calypso2ts wrote:

BuFFo wrote:
...an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win...

This made me laugh. I would hate to have to buy new tires.

LOL!!!!

Wait... What???

Rape and Murder doesn't bother you, but spending resources does?

You ARE a Dark Eldar, aren't you?

BuFFo, you don't get to redefine words.

WAAC is exactly that - winning at all cost. You've been keen on advising other posters in here on what the moderators have said, so I'll extend you the same courtesey. When they say that WAAC has a clear negative meaning, that using it too loosely is insulting, or too harsh - you should take that under advisement.

Just because YOU are comfortable calling someone a name doesn't make it right to do so; otherwise there would be no turmoil over epithets relating to racial, social, political or religious affairs. I *CAN* tell you that if someone calls me a WAAC gamer, I'm going to very strongly encourage them to pack up their models and exit the premises immediately while I'm feeling generous enough to make the offer. Because doing so is calling me a cheater and a liar.

In case you're not being deliberately obtuse about what WAAC is, you can mouse over it to see what it stands for; Win At All Costs. Anything that secures the win, any exploitation of the rules, loophole, cheating, extra measurement, ANYTHING that will garner you an advantage unfair or not is justified in pursuit of the win. That is *not* in the same category, or even the same hemisphere as someone who plays competitively or plays to win.

Buffo wrote:
I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

Right. And calling black people any name you like is ok. THEY are the ones associating negative connotations. And affectionately calling my wife a dirty slut is also ok; she just needs to know my personal definition of the word, not the actual one.

This topic has come about because in response to a constructive request for you to find some competitive opponents, or to play against some competitive lists as a means of providing some truly useful feedback on the capabilities and limitations of the codex, you went berzerk with the WAAC bit.

Relax.

Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

rivers64 wrote:Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

Will you buy me a Valentine Days gift?

BuFFo wrote:

rivers64 wrote:Buffo good job. Just play against who you want to play against and I'll keep enjoying the awesome reports.

Will you buy me a Valentine Days gift?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

So..... when is the next betrep going to be up already?

Really enjoying the reports so far Buffo!!
Its nice to get a heads up on DE before I have to face them..
Oh and good job deflecting all the flame artists too....
You've conducted yourself like a gent in this thread, which by the way is very un Dark eldar of you. You should go enslave and torture some kittens to make ammends imo.

kaiservonhugal wrote:So..... when is the next betrep going to be up already?

Working on it right now actually, and uploading it in about an hour!

Holy~Heretic wrote:Really enjoying the reports so far Buffo!!
Its nice to get a heads up on DE before I have to face them..
Oh and good job deflecting all the flame artists too....
You've conducted yourself like a gent in this thread, which by the way is very un Dark eldar of you. You should go enslave and torture some kittens to make ammends imo.

It is HARD to change your tune once you become the center of attention, as my blog has made me lately. When you have a following, it is your responsibility to be mature and level headed. God I hate politics.... I have been banned on tons of forums because I tend to speak my mind (usually to the Mods, never the posters, go figure), but not this time!

Torture kittens? Why yes! I am a Dog person after all....

New game is up!!

1500 Cult/Coven/Cabal versus Ultramarines - Game 8

Nice to see a unorthodox list with no real focus in battle. Your lack of Dark light weapons made that game a uphill battle vs a armored foe. Don't want to spoil it for anyone but good to see ya make the most out of a bad situation. If it worked or not people will have to read for themselves.

Have you/ will you be fighting any necron opponents? Just curious to see how the two armies will face off. Would be cool to see drazar in action as well. He is not in my plans for the future but I like the concept of him. Keep the reports coming. Most of us just like reading / watching the reports and could care less about the little things. If you get to 45 games we will all get what we need out of them one way or another. Hopefully even you.

hey Buffo can you try to find an IG army to play against? im dieing to see how they roll.

Sha1emade wrote:Nice to see a unorthodox list with no real focus in battle. Your lack of Dark light weapons made that game a uphill battle vs a armored foe. Don't want to spoil it for anyone but good to see ya make the most out of a bad situation. If it worked or not people will have to read for themselves.

Yeah, I thought it was a good exercise in "how to not let your fears dictate your Strategies".

Have you/ will you be fighting any necron opponents? Just curious to see how the two armies will face off.

All Necron players in my area have either given up the army or actually given up on GW products. No exaggeration either. I have no Necron opponents to play against, even with 20+ people in my area.

Would be cool to see drazar in action as well.

He is so horrible. I tried him in a game, and, ugh, he just isn't good at all. I will try him a few more times, but I really don't like him. He isn't an IC killer like you think he SHOULD be, and he is WAAAY too expensive to be a unit killer. Mephiston he is not!

TheMicah25 wrote:hey Buffo can you try to find an IG army to play against? im dieing to see how they roll.

In my area, I am the only IG player. There is another person, but he doesn't come to the store anymore due to baby mama drama.

I know of a person in my area who actually reads Dakka, maybe he'll get a game in sometime. We aren't really friends, so who knows.

I could lend someone my army, and that is the best I could do.

Great job Buffo, i enjoy reading all your reports. Very clear and concise!

Keep doing what you are doing, its all good. And dont listen to people demanding that you play "competative" lists. I have never played against anyone that has ran a RB spam SW list or whatever else is deemed "strong" by people desperate to win, and i enjoy reading these nice fun reports.

The thing that i dont understand about "competative" lists is, how many people actually make them? I just sorta.. fell into the hobby and as a result bought a whole mish mash of models. Which is why i like your reports cos it seems like most people do the same, none of the UM/Vanilla lists look that disimilar from armies i would put out. You know, devestators, VV, regular termies, assault marines.. all the things that powergames wont touch! But i bought em, and i painted em, so i want to use them! And that takes a back seat to making an optimised list in my book. (I spent AGES on my sweet thunderfire cannon!)

I really dont think i have turned up anywhere and seen a SM list that has been 9 Razorbacks or 5 double AC dreds or whatever, because i just dont think many people ignore all the cool fun models and buy like 10 of the same thing unless they play tourneys.

Do they?! Ive got about 6000 points but i wouldnt be able to run a "competative" list because i dont have more than three of one model! I HAVE got one of pretty much everything in the codex though. It might not make a spam list that wins alot, but its fun to make all sorts of different lists and play with them.

BuFFo wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I'll agree that the label "WAAC" does have the general connotation of a player who goes to inappropriate and unsportsmanlike lengths (often including inaccurate measurements and/or misinterpreting the rules in ways favorable to themselves) to win the game. "At all costs" has a pretty clear negative meaning.

I think Buffo's position on how he plays his games and who and what he plays them against is totally legitimate. But I do think he was a bit off-base and harsh when he referred to an "optimized" or "maximized" army as being WAAC.

---------------

ChrisCP, Brother Ramses, I asked politely for people to drop the rules debate. This interpretation is one where people have legitimate differences of opinion, and labeling the interpretation you disagree with as a "house rule" is inflammatory and unnecessarily confrontational.

To be clear- further posts debating that particular rule in this thread are off topic and inappropriate. Make a new thread in You Make Da Call if you care that much.

No, not at all, because in the context of who I was playing, they were WAAC players.

I am not here to debate the meaning of WAAC because there is none. Everyone has their own opinion at to what it means.

What I am saying is that in some of the games I have played, and some of the the people I have played, WAAC fits them perfectly because they make a list just to win. Not to be fair, not to make the game fun for BOTH players, but just to win.

Now if you guys want WAAC to include an opponent who will slash your tires, rape your sister and commit murder to win, then that is fine, but I am not.

I will continue to call my opponents who just want to win WAAC players. Any negative connotations put on that term is up to YOU guys. I never did any such thing. I like being a WAAC player from time to time, but ONLY if my opponent knows I am doing so.

I don't see anything negative about such a term.

If you enjoy loosing games and playing against incompetant lists then by all means have a blast.

Hey, Winning isnt for everyone Buffo.

Here is a concept, Smitty0305 and other nay Sayers, make your own battle reports the way you want them. VS the types you want to play against.

What Buffo is doing is like entertaining school. Fast, loose and fun. You get what you want out of them. Give the guy a break already. He has spoken his peace and is doing his thing. Please stop derailing his thread with the negative attitude comments. This thread is one of the main reasons myself and a few others come to dakka.

I say this as I am a competitive player who does not use power lists like you are requesting, fight them sure, but not very often. This thread is valuable information for players like me who play fun armies but also do well with them. Normal gaming in many parts of the country do not see power lists all the time.

Please don't be so negative vs this thread. It would appear the negativity vs Buffo is in the minority and MODS, buffo, myself and others have asked polity to stop with the negative comments. Please respect our right to a great thread. We do not want this locked or worse yet have Buffo stop.

Also remember the way he is playing is for the best. DE are tricky to use. He is putting them threw the motions. Figuring out how they work best. I will bet you after he knows all the units and knows them well we will see the DE vs some of the very tough cookies, like Mech Ig and the rest. Its like prize fighting. You don't go after the title in your fist couple of fights. You will get K.O'd in no time and you will learn nothing by it, except that he punches hard. You have to be ready and prepared. Buffo seems to be training. I do not doubt later in the 45 games the games will become more challenging. Just let the guy do some push ups first.

I go after the prize with my first few fights

Couldn't help it. Continue!

When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

thedarksaint wrote:When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

Never!

(I like how a living shadow is ID by a multi laser)

Sha1emade wrote:Here is a concept, Smitty0305 and other nay Sayers, make your own battle reports the way you want them. VS the types you want to play against.

They won't, and you know it... These people are just lazy arm chair generals. Literally. I doubt they can get out of their chairs. lol!

I do not doubt later in the 45 games the games will become more challenging. Just let the guy do some push ups first.

I have already faced games that are 'more challenging'. Tell me, why do you not consider an Eldar list tailored to beat Dark Eldar, a typical WAAC Blood Angels build, and two Space Wolf builds with 15 Long Fangs (twice), not challenging?

What do you want me to do, play the games blindfolded?

thedarksaint wrote:When do we get to see some hawt Mandrake action?

One day I'll make a list with some Mandrakes, don't you worry your pretty little head!