Are you really leaving GW?

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**jerseydevil**

I just can not afford it anymore, with a wife and two kids and no time to play much it just dose not make sence anymore. I have three armies and plenty of extras to build and paint to last me for a long time. I just can not justify paying $30.00 for 10 ork boyz. sorry GW, you just don't do it for me anymore.

**Chimera_Calvin**

Sam__theRelentless wrote:The hobby is enjoyable. The best way for me to experience it is by GW miniature monopoly. It's that simple, enough said.

Fixed that for you

**scarletsquig**

I already switched to mantic a year ago.

Mantic = awesome. I bought a ton of dwarves and undead for 30p per model, brand new.. or over 80% off GW's usual prices.

Yes, they really are *that* cheap... check out some of their army boxes!

The prices they sell their models at just shows up how much of a bad deal GW really is.

**FITZZ**

Sam__theRelentless wrote:
FITZZ wrote:
Sam__theRelentless wrote:See? Exactly. It's not going to stop it, just slow it down...

People love the game and love the miniatures, even if they don't like GW's business practices

...But, as more and more people opt to simply "complete" current armies ( especially if they use ebay/swaps to do so) and refuse to start "new" armies, then surely this affects GW on some level.
A company can not exist simply by selling "starter boxes" to "new" customers, and at some point the exodus of "veteran" players must make some impact.

Indeed, but it's not like there aren't going to be ANY new people starting, in the same way that the majority of the veterans will in fact stay.

Perhaps so, but clearly the start up cost will put a great deal of perspective "new"players off,and in the cases of those with no (or little) income of their own, put their parents off.
And in the case of many veteran players, those who do continue to purchase will, in many cases, cut back on what they buy...and opt against starting new armies.

**Sam__theRelentless**

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Sam__theRelentless wrote:The hobby is enjoyable. The best way for me to experience it is by GW miniature monopoly. It's that simple, enough said.

Fixed that for you

Sorry. My meaning was not clear, what I wanted to get across was that the general consensus is that GW's miniatures, ignoring price, are the best. Minus Finecast, of course.
Hence, the point that the most wargames are played with GW miniatures. Ergo

scarletsquig wrote:I already switched to mantic a year ago.

Mantic = awesome. I bought a ton of dwarves and undead for 30p per model, brand new.. or over 80% off GW's usual prices.

Yes, they really are *that* cheap... check out some of their army boxes!

The prices they sell their models at just shows up how much of a bad deal GW really is.

I'm not saying they aren't, that really isn't my point. I for one don't know any miniatures save GW's, and thus am automatically allied to their products. I'm sure there are others like me, and I will stay in the hobby until I can be called a "veteran"

**Scott-S6**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:You could have ordered non-GW stuff from Maelstrom. You can continue to order non-GW stuff from Maelstrom.
Instead you bought some more GW stuff despite the many, many complaining posts from yourself.

I have bought several non-GW products over the past week and a bit, including Warmachine and BattleTech miniatures.
Happy yet?

Nope. Despite all your complaining you still went and ordered more GW stuff. Way to protest!

**FITZZ**

Scott-S6 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:You could have ordered non-GW stuff from Maelstrom. You can continue to order non-GW stuff from Maelstrom.
Instead you bought some more GW stuff despite the many, many complaining posts from yourself.

I have bought several non-GW products over the past week and a bit, including Warmachine and BattleTech miniatures.
Happy yet?

Nope. Despite all your complaining you still went and ordered more GW stuff. Way to protest!

Should partially completed armies that have been under construction for a given time simply be left unfinished ?
Completing a started project doesn't negate the fact that someone is unsatisfied with a companies performance ...nor does it indicate that they will begin any new projects using the companies products.

**Scott-S6**

FITZZ wrote: Should partially completed armies that have been under construction for a given time simply be left unfinished ?

Teach them a lesson by only buying stuff that you need.

FITZZ wrote: Completing a started project doesn't negate the fact that someone is unsatisfied with a companies performance ...nor does it indicate that they will begin any new projects using the companies products.

Nor does it indicate that they won't begin any new projects.

**FITZZ**

Scott-S6 wrote:
FITZZ wrote: Should partially completed armies that have been under construction for a given time simply be left unfinished ?

Teach them a lesson by only buying stuff that you need.

FITZZ wrote: Completing a started project doesn't negate the fact that someone is unsatisfied with a companies performance ...nor does it indicate that they will begin any new projects using the companies products.

Nor does it indicate that they won't begin any new projects.

I suppose so, In my own case I have a Praetorian army that I've been working on for almost a year...and have wanted for over a decade, it's been built on second hand purchases and swaps, and I hope to complete it in much the same way.
After that army is finished...so am I (with GW at least).

**johnscott10**

Just calculated how much it would be to finish off my current armies and its gonna cost £500 ish. But thats with the GW prices.

The majority i can get on wayland games and what i cant will be from gw(hey what can i say, i want to support the guys who have helped me out alot).

**Delephont**

FITZZ wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:You could have ordered non-GW stuff from Maelstrom. You can continue to order non-GW stuff from Maelstrom.
Instead you bought some more GW stuff despite the many, many complaining posts from yourself.

I have bought several non-GW products over the past week and a bit, including Warmachine and BattleTech miniatures.
Happy yet?

Nope. Despite all your complaining you still went and ordered more GW stuff. Way to protest!

Should partially completed armies that have been under construction for a given time simply be left unfinished ?
Completing a started project doesn't negate the fact that someone is unsatisfied with a companies performance ...nor does it indicate that they will begin any new projects using the companies products.

I agree with Scott-S6, don't get me wrong, I don't want to kick dirt into H.B.M.C.s face, but there's some serious hating going on right now (understandably) and showing GW you mean business by ordering from them (either directly or via a indie retailer) isn't really showing them anything but your credit card number.

I understand the point about "finishing" an army....but what does that mean exactly? I'm fortunate in so much as I have a completed (built and painted) IG army....I will continue to play with it, but I won't buy anything else from GW, including rulesets...this is my personal stand for me...now, is my IG army "finished"...well, I don't have every variant of vehicle, or infantry unit, but given my stance...I consider my army to be finished.

If I play WH40K with friends, I can play with the points limit that my army covers....full stop. Would I be standing by my point of view if I decided, well, I hate GW, but I'm going to just go out and buy some more vehicles so I can field more of my IG....blah blah blah....where does it end? When will I be finished? The truth is, the way GW have structured their games, you'll never be finished......and I think that's what makes H.B.M.C.s argument difficult to swallow.

I think people need to pick a side in this debate and stick to it, anything else simply cheapens their point of view in the eyes of their peers.

**H.B.M.C.**

You people are insane...

**Delephont**

H.B.M.C. wrote:You people are insane...

You need to aim that gun when you fire it

If your comment was aimed at me, then all I can say is....I dislike GWs policies, and I dislike their new product direction....I haven't bought anything from them or their distribution network, and anything I've started but isn't finished is being sold to fund alternatives to GW.

I don't know, seems pretty logical to me.

**mikhaila**

Delephont wrote:I think people need to pick a side in this debate and stick to it, anything else simply cheapens their point of view in the eyes of their peers.

Naw, it's the internet. People can buy whatever they want, and claim something totally different on the internet.

I saw H.B.M.C buy 6 dreadknights from a GW store, tip the sales rep who pressured him into it, and then sent Jervis a thank you card.

I bet he denies it though.

**Delephont**

**solkan**

Last year I reached the point where what I really, really wanted a decent game that I could play with my existing miniatures. At this point, I believe I've found the games that I'm looking for, so my interest in the "car crash waiting to happen" spectacle that is the rules in each new codex and each new edition of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k is entirely out of morbid interest and habit.

You'd be amazed how much more relaxing you can buy a model just because it looks nice, and not because you need to buy four of them for the awesome new elite unit in the codex.

Does that count as leaving GW?

**mikhaila**

Delephont wrote:....I haven't bought anything from them or their distribution network, and anything I've started but isn't finished is being sold to fund alternatives to GW.

I don't know, seems pretty logical to me.

See, you just aren't thinking this through enough. By supporting GW, you support the growth of alternatives.

-John Paul Bersigotti, John Mattews, and Jeff Smith (and about 20 others) are making WWII and Vietnam stuff at Battlefront.
-Ronnie, Steve, and Joe Neet are putting out good stuff at Mantic.
-John Stollard and Paul Sawyer are doing great Romans and historicals at Warlord.
-Perry's are over at Foundry, producing new plastic historicals, and put out Black Powder and Hail Ceasar!
-The 'Eavy Metal crew from Northern Europe has a cool line of stuff call Army Painter.
-Lonnie Mullins is at Wargames Factory
-Earnie and Barb Baker are running Architects of War, making some nice terrain and distributing historicals.
-Felix has his Avatars of War line, making great character figures.
-Bob Watts founded Heartbreaker Hobbies, produced all the Warzone figures, worked for RalPartha, and WOTC, founded Sabertooth, and now runs Privateer's manufacturing in Europe and translates the game for other countries.

Just think what we'll have in another decade if we keep buying GW figures, they keep training ex-GW employees, who then run off and start up new companies. It makes me proud to think that every time I sell space marines to another 12 year old that I'm really supporting all sorts of other games!

**FITZZ**

I guess I should clarify my definition of "finish"...
I had a set list of items I wanted to include in my army...which would bring it to a 2,000 point force.
Upon getting those items (again through the use of swap/Ebay when I can) I would consider that army finished.

**H.B.M.C.**

There are dozens of people who have 'quit' who ordered from online discounters before the embargo came in. We even had two whole threads on the subject of final purchases.

Yet y'all come after me?

Real cute...

**solkan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are dozens of people who have 'quit' who ordered from online discounters before the embargo came in. We even had two whole threads on the subject of final purchases.

Yet y'all come after me?

But H.B.M.C., you must understand how your continued patronage of GW, however brief, is an absolute betrayal of everyone else who's annoyed at the latest troubles.

The Internet demands blood!

**-Loki-**

Maybe since he's not buying GW stuff, H.B.M.C will finally paint his stuff.

**H.B.M.C.**

Now that’s just crazy talk!

**warboss**

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are dozens of people who have 'quit' who ordered from online discounters before the embargo came in. We even had two whole threads on the subject of final purchases.

Yet y'all come after me?

Real cute...

It could because you have the highest number of posts complaining about it as well as the highest bile content... so when you place an order worth several hundred dollars despite all this, people take note that you scream "I WANT GW TO FAIL" but then your actions add the caveat of " right after my next order.... unless I need something later so then after that order in that case..."

**MeanGreenStompa**

For those of you taking issue with HBMC, let me give you this to ponder on the tree of woe...

If he didn't love the product, he wouldn't be so vitriolic now would he? He wouldn't own 3 square miles of unpainted Imperial Guard tanks if he thought they were gak, now would he?

He gets angry for the same reasons I got angry (before my gnashing of teeth just became a Charlie Brown styled sigh and muttering of 'good grief'), because we love the game, the background, the minis and we've been into it for a very long time.

The end stages of a long term relationship are never easy and parting is, for me certainly, a sad time. I wanted 3 new armies this year and next, but I can't stomach the price any more, I actually couldn't stomach the price a while back but kept buying because of my love for the game and my involvement and attachment to everything to do with the GW games, whilst that conflict was occurring, it left me angry with GW, well I'm not now, they are under no obligation to sell their goods to me at any price other than the one they set. I am the one who says 'yes I will pay for that' or 'feth me, no bloody way' and now that I have gone a good many degrees past my patience with the pricing, no more armies, just some 'tidying up' purchases to my existing projects and then GW gets no more of my money.

Plenty more fish in the sea.

**AvatarForm**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:Now, as I said this is not a representative sample, but, I think it is fair to qualify these results as "overwhelmingly negative".
Of a small, vocal minority off GW's customerbase and not even the target audiance.

Wrong.

That mentality, the one where this forum and others are places only frequented by old and bitter bastards like me, is false.

The target audience, the younger players, buy their figures and white dwarf magazine, and then they go online. The average 14 year old is far more computer savvy than the likes of us and the dakka polls recently showed the age range far wider than you think.

So the new players come to forums like this and read up on more experienced players posts. If they see and absorb enough, their GW experience is shortened and they are exposed to other game systems. There are several good and valid reasons why a sizeable amount of the older players post about GW in a negative fashion.

The argument about a vocal minority of old farts who don't purchase much is the same one GWs high command uses. It isn't true. If GW had taken the option of collaboration with forums and treating the internet as the future instead of treating forums as the enemy and the internet as 'something that will go away if we ignore it long enough', then perhaps things might be different, but as it is, the kids come here and learn the negative perception from the long time players.

As for my own buying of the product. I had planned on a dark eldar army, wood elf army and a massive, massive empire army with lots of forgeworld bits. All this crass greed around the resin switch and yet more plastic price hikes means that, yes, I will continue to purchase GW product, to finish my wife's tyranid army, finish my chaos warriors and perhaps some terrain.

Then that's it. I cannot justify the 'worth' of individual models to the price being charged for them. I might just spluge the money I would have spent on a big fish tank or something.

Wife and I are now certainly looking into warmahordes and malifaux.

post this into an email/letter to GW CEO/Board of Directors.

On a happy note, sine I am not buying, I am now painting...

2k space puppies here I come!

**MeanGreenStompa**

If GW ever acknowledged that the internet is actually used by their target audience and that they were learning about other companies and the disgruntlement of older players on sites like dakka dakka, then instead of asking themselves why and going on some kind of charm offensive, they'd just unleash a slew of Cease and Desist notices and court summons for 'using GW imagery' or some other nonsense.

The senior ranks are deeply embedded in a culture of self aggrandising, criticism is treated as an enemy action and the entire company is geared around bizarre military terminology and Gordon Gekko styled soundbites and 'finger guns' to each other across the board table.

I will place my faith and finances with more worthy businesses with better customer relations.

**H.B.M.C.**

warboss wrote:It could because you have the highest number of posts complaining about it as well as the highest bile content... so when you place an order worth several hundred dollars despite all this, people take note that you scream "I WANT GW TO FAIL" but then your actions add the caveat of " right after my next order.... unless I need something later so then after that order in that case..."

Nice try, but no. My actions are no different to anyone else in my group – all have parted ways, all did their final orders – just as many many others have done here.

Troll harder folks.

**Ghiest1**

Hello,
To be honest 90% of the items I buy are not new, they are all used so thier price point increase does not hit me as hard, I also have a barter sytem for my painting commisions so I think the price point will not hit as hard, until I want some new model that just came out.

Regards,
Carl

**WUWU**

I can admit that GW has strong fluff and probably the best models on average in the whole hobby, but I'm a gamer first and foremost, and GW has the weakest rule set out of all the new games I've played or sampled. The choice is easy. They wont get another cent from me in the future.

**precinctomega**

@MeanGreenStompa - Whilst I wish you were right that Dakka and other forums were representative of the gamer community, my own experience oas that we aren't. This is anecdotal, admittedly, but I am an area rep for the GCN and visit multiple clubs and events around my area as well as a few home groups, plus I run my own small miniatures and gaming company, so I think my experience is moderately representative.

Most gamers I meet are like Sam_theRelentless. They think either that GW is the only option (if it even occurred to them to wonder) or that, if they have heard of alternatives, that GW is the best. The fact that GW is best neither in terms of model quality nor game design is never revealed because they never ask.

I'm constantly amazed at new gamers I meet who think that there aren't any clubs in the area. There are six within 20 minute drive, most of which can be found by doing a Google search for "Cheltenham Gloucester Wargamin", yet hardly anyone looks.

As a GW shareholder and proponent of the hobby beyond GW, my main concern is that GW is positioning its entry price too high, such that it is becoming harder and harder to persuade parents that it is worth kids even starting. GW games are the best gateway drug on the market.

But, on the other hand, if GW does price itself out of the market, then maybe it will provide an opening for another company to exploit that position.

R.