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My purchases were never massive or regular to begin with. This won't change what I buy, but it certainly makes me feel sad to see so many people leaving the hobby......

nkelsch wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Now, as I said this is not a representative sample, but, I think it is fair to qualify these results as "overwhelmingly negative".

Of a small, vocal minority off GW's customerbase and not even the target audiance.

Wrong.

That mentality, the one where this forum and others are places only frequented by old and bitter bastards like me, is false.

The target audience, the younger players, buy their figures and white dwarf magazine, and then they go online. The average 14 year old is far more computer savvy than the likes of us and the dakka polls recently showed the age range far wider than you think.

So the new players come to forums like this and read up on more experienced players posts. If they see and absorb enough, their GW experience is shortened and they are exposed to other game systems. There are several good and valid reasons why a sizeable amount of the older players post about GW in a negative fashion.

The argument about a vocal minority of old farts who don't purchase much is the same one GWs high command uses. It isn't true. If GW had taken the option of collaboration with forums and treating the internet as the future instead of treating forums as the enemy and the internet as 'something that will go away if we ignore it long enough', then perhaps things might be different, but as it is, the kids come here and learn the negative perception from the long time players.




As for my own buying of the product. I had planned on a dark eldar army, wood elf army and a massive, massive empire army with lots of forgeworld bits. All this crass greed around the resin switch and yet more plastic price hikes means that, yes, I will continue to purchase GW product, to finish my wife's tyranid army, finish my chaos warriors and perhaps some terrain.

Then that's it. I cannot justify the 'worth' of individual models to the price being charged for them. I might just spluge the money I would have spent on a big fish tank or something.

Wife and I are now certainly looking into warmahordes and malifaux.

On an upshot I think that several minor game manufacturers could actually do really well out of this and get a newer and bigger fanbase

Yes I agree, I have said the same on several other posts that I think in the long run it could be good for the hobby.

There are many other games out there, and a new generation of stuff that in terms of rules mechanics knocks GW's core stuff out cold. Had it not been for GW's appalling treatment of their fans (who lets face it, probably only needed the tiniest of concessions to keep in line) then many of those games might well have sunk without a trace.

Now, hobbyists are being pushed towards those other games in droves, and the numbers may well reach a 'critical mass' where they start to steamroll and get mass worldwide appeal (arguably this has already happened with WarmaHordes).

I will purchase less from GW as I now get less for my money, instead of spending a bit extra to get two kit I will only buy the one. It'll take me longer to build an army, thus GW will get less of my money each month.

I've never been much of a regular purchaser (or poster for that matter) but certainly this latest round of GW "business decisions" will affect how much I buy. I'm soon to be a poor uni student so until I have the space and the money, any models I buy will have to be for display only. But I haven't been put off GW altogether though.

Simple reasons really. First I honestly prefer their models to the other companies that i've seen. Sure they have their occasional "misses" but in my opinion they "hit" a lot more than other companies as well. Also my favorite part of GW's games is the background they provide to go along with it, they've managed to create a whole galaxy to play in and build on. Plus with regular additions from Black Library this just keeps expanding. Other companies just don't match this, I've tried looking into Warmachine and Hordes but it just doesn't interest me at all.

This is all only my opinion but I'll be staying with GW, though in spirit rather than with my wallet.

Quick update, although I'm glad to see people still voting - I sent a letter to Mark Wells yesterday (so he should have got it today) which included the stats as they were at 565 votes.

If he sends me a reply I'll post it on dakka - It'll be interesting to see how he 'explains' the data...

I spend my hard earned at Ebay now.....picked up a few bargains recently :-)

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Quick update, although I'm glad to see people still voting - I sent a letter to Mark Wells yesterday (so he should have got it today) which included the stats as they were at 565 votes.

If he sends me a reply I'll post it on dakka - It'll be interesting to see how he 'explains' the data...

Let's see....

As small insignificant vocal sub group of entitled adults with too much time on their hands who are not the target demo of their game anyways... and besides, he knows that as history has proven over and over, that the people who are gonna quit won't 'stay' regardless what GW does and those ones who are too addicted to quit won't quit regardless what GW does. Turnover is expected and welcomed as it is the design of their model to sell you an army and then get out of the way.

Sending the CEO of GW a worthless internet poll makes you look foolish like you actually think you deserve a real response to this pile of trash data like it is actually legitimate or means something.

Not buying much from GW again; buying Forge world bits for a custom army, and some respirators from a bit site. So not much goes to GW in the end.
30 rifles, 10 las pistols, 10 melee weapons, 33 respirators, plus some non-GW minis to mix up into my own army.

Imperial Guard can be made from almost anything; and won't look so god damn plain.

Course i will end up buying some heavy weaponry might just get it from Forgeworld they tend to have some nice versions of the weapons.

You should specify "I will not spend as much money as I previously did" instead of "I will not buy as much". No one, provided they budget their funds, will be able to buy as much---as they are now getting less for their dollar. And that's fine with GW provided you don't change your spending habits---in fact I daresay that is their goal. Give less for more.

Month long embargos, keep buying but get less----that means very little to them. Spending your money with a competitor instead of GW however, will make an impact.

nkelsch wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Quick update, although I'm glad to see people still voting - I sent a letter to Mark Wells yesterday (so he should have got it today) which included the stats as they were at 565 votes.

If he sends me a reply I'll post it on dakka - It'll be interesting to see how he 'explains' the data...

Let's see....

As small insignificant vocal sub group of entitled adults with too much time on their hands who are not the target demo of their game anyways... and besides, he knows that as history has proven over and over, that the people who are gonna quit won't 'stay' regardless what GW does and those ones who are too addicted to quit won't quit regardless what GW does. Turnover is expected and welcomed as it is the design of their model to sell you an army and then get out of the way.

Sending the CEO of GW a worthless internet poll makes you look foolish like you actually think you deserve a real response to this pile of trash data like it is actually legitimate or means something.

Let's see....

I have worked very hard my entire life and do not consider myself in any way 'entitled' (I also do not cast aspersions on the personality of those I've never met - try it sometime and you'll come across as less arrogant ), however, as a customer I do have a right to comment on the level of service and value for money I receive from any company (not just this one). When I see that other people have a similar opinion this adds weight to my argument and is therefore relevant to the complaint I have made.

I have seen your posts frequently on this and other threads peddling the same line that anyone complaining is wasting their time and is basically acting like a spoiled brat. You are entitled to this opinion, of course, and I would defend to the death your right to both have it and express it - but you must therefore give me equal credence in believing that I (and the many others who agree with me) have a right to complain.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
I have seen your posts frequently on this and other threads peddling the same line that anyone complaining is wasting their time and is basically acting like a spoiled brat. You are entitled to this opinion, of course, and I would defend to the death your right to both have it and express it - but you must therefore give me equal credence in believing that I (and the many others who agree with me) have a right to complain.

You don't have the right to be heard. The idea that somehow this poll is scientific or even of value or representative of anything is insulting to the target audience and intellectually dishonest. Thinking it is relevant shows how undeserving your letter is of a legitimate response and hurts your entire stance and flushes away any possible legitimacy your letter might have had. If you wanted to do a 'REAL' survey it has to be quantifiable data based on real responses, not a lie of a biased poll based upon emotion. Maybe if you did a private poll with quantification of purchases over the past 2 years, armies played, participation rate in events and the hobby and found actual trends of sales and consumption you MIGHT have a legitimate point. If you could show me 1000 users spending habits from the past 2 years avenues they purchased through and gaming habits and then show a correlation of price increases or bad news impacting sales or participation, then you might have a point, but you haven't done the legwork to do such a scientific survey of any value. To pretend this poll is equal to something like that is delusional.

The only way to make GW take note is to actually STOP CONSUMING. People don't want to, and they continue to buy and give GW money hand over fist. But they feel like simple complaining and a strongly worded letter should be enough. It is like a person at a restaurant who complains their dinner was 'bad' and doesn't want to pay for it, but yet they cleaned their plate before they sent it back to the kitchen. The food was bad, but obviously not bad enough to not lick the plate clean.

Complaining about these things is natural, complaining to your peers on a wargaming forum is to be expected and it is likely cathartic as they will understand what on earth you're talking about.

Anyone peddling this 'if you don't like it, get out of the kitchen/get off dakka the GW forum etc etc' should instead, stop opening these threads and quit flamebaiting. These are significant changes, for the worst in the eyes of many, to the largest wargaming company and the idea that people involved in the wargaming community won't comment on them is beyond naive to the point of being wilfully obtuse.

nkelsch, get the hell back in your corner. If you don't like what Calvin is doing, explain it in less fragrant and inciteful terminology. What you're posting now reeks of flamebait and trolling.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
nkelsch, get the hell back in your corner. If you don't like what Calvin is doing, explain it in less fragrant and inciteful terminology. What you're posting now reeks of flamebait and trolling.

Biased poll is biased. But let's treat it if it was legitimate.

First of all:
I already stopped buying from them before recent events 18% [ 107 ]
This means that 18% of people of this poll are not GW customers and are not influenced by this particular issue people are attempting to complain about. They are not even valid for this particular poll which is change of habits based upon the recent changes. Including them as people quitting over price changes is intellectually dishonest as they are NETRUAL and have no bearing on the poll positive or negative.

I will continue to buy from them, but not as much as before 30% [ 184 ]
These people as AgeOfEgos points out, are not actually going to spend less, most of them will spend the same but obtain less product. GW still makes a full profit margin off them if the spend the same. Since the poll doesn't attempt to clarify or quantify this, it can be manipulated in any way the user of the poll wishes.

So this means 330 users will spend the same or more Money, 69 will spend less money and 99 will stop spending money because of 'recent actions'. That means 70% of GW customers of this poll are not impacted at all... Considering this subset of customers is very easy to dissatisfy, considering after all the complaining 70% of the existing customers will continue to spend money the same is a pretty strong reason to show the market can and will bear the price increases and the dissatisfaction. Even the people who are making one last big buy, GW still gets their money to insulate them from the 'quitting' and has every ability to have future sales or product draw those people back in.

So why should the president of GW consider his changes a failure or a bad thing? This poll shows that it is a documented success in every capacity.

nkelsch wrote:
Biased poll is biased. But let's treat it if it was legitimate.

Hah, any poll is biased. I got a group of 100 girls to all agree to fox hunting by posing them the question 'do you believe in controlling pests that threaten farms? in my sociology class in college. Stats and damned lies etc.

nkelsch wrote:
First of all:
I already stopped buying from them before recent events 18% [ 107 ]
This means that 18% of people of this poll are not GW customers and are not influenced by this particular issue people are attempting to complain about. They are not even valid for this particular poll which is change of habits based upon the recent changes. Including them as people quitting over price changes is intellectually dishonest as they are NETRUAL and have no bearing on the poll positive or negative.

Well, as you should full well know, any poll is skewed by a very important factor, it's only completed by the type of people who bother completing polls. You are also dismissing a fairly important figure here from the numbers, that this is posted on a wargaming forum and that chances are these people may be still playing the games and own miniatures, these are a representative figure of an untapped potential market, the returning player. Further work could yield interesting results on this one category as to why they ceased purchasing from GW.
Using a little root cause analysis here shows us these are wargamers who once bought from them but who have now stopped, why is a good question to be asking.

nkelsch wrote:
I will continue to buy from them, but not as much as before 30% [ 184 ]
These people as AgeOfEgos points out, are not actually going to spend less, most of them will spend the same but obtain less product. GW still makes a full profit margin off them if the spend the same. Since the poll doesn't attempt to clarify or quantify this, it can be manipulated in any way the user of the poll wishes.

You have not one shred of evidence to support your theory. Assuming that the reduced purchasing will be equally balanced by the rising prices is absolute conjecture, to exactly the same extent as you've just accused the other fellow.
There is plenty of space for people who, instead of starting up several new armies, will now just finish off existing ones, to a dramatically reduced financial commitment to the product.
I happen to be one of them.

nkelsch wrote:
So this means 330 users will spend the same or more Money, 69 will spend less money and 99 will stop spending money because of 'recent actions'. That means 70% of GW customers of this poll are not impacted at all... Considering this subset of customers is very easy to dissatisfy, considering after all the complaining 70% of the existing customers will continue to spend money the same is a pretty strong reason to show the market can and will bear the price increases and the dissatisfaction. Even the people who are making one last big buy, GW still gets their money to insulate them from the 'quitting' and has every ability to have future sales or product draw those people back in.

So, even if we ignore what I just said above about the 30% for which you have no evidence to support the idea of a 'balancing act' between price hikes and reduced physical purchasing, you are still confronted with 30% dissatisfaction. Any CEO who ignores that should be beaten about the head and thrown off the roof of the building by very angry shareholders. Doubtless it being conducted on a forum for wargaming will be claimed to be an unfairly cynical and aggressive audience, but the other option, the one GW doubtless uses, is inside it's stores, where the kiddies are. They will yield no better result.

nkelsch wrote:
So why should the president of GW consider his changes a failure or a bad thing? This poll shows that it is a documented success in every capacity.

go and read the last 2 GW financial reports...

The company is not healthy. Why do you think we have seen the one man stores in reduced rent malls despite GWs maintaining that the stores are their principal recruiting and indoctrinating weapon? Why do you think they have shoe-horned their IP rental to computer companies into their initial profits? Why do you think we've just seen the move to resin, a cheaper material and then a price hike?

The issue is with WHY it's a documented success.

Easy, because GW has created an environment where >70% of their customers are unaffected by pretty much anything they do, hence, by shrewd calculation, their price rise might be payed off, etc etc. The calculations, for the GW accounts department anyway, will work out.

I'm sorry - 'I don't have the right to be heard'? Please stop wilfully misreading my comments to support your own point of view - I said I had a right to complain and I stand by that.

'Biased poll is biased'? Again, you're making assumptions about me as a person that you have no justification for and then publicly proclaimed them as fact. From the tenor of your posts I have drawn certain assumptions about you as a person, but this is a discussion of a topic, not the people contributing.

As I stated in the first post of this thread, I deliberately did not run this poll for the first two weeks following the first news of GWs proposals so as to attempt to reduce the number of purely emotional 'Feth You GW!!' responses. Many people who have contributed to this discussion have been honest and said that they will not stop buying from GW, even if they object to their business practices. I had no expectations when I set up the poll - I was genuinely curious as to the response.

You clearly feel, however, that I set up a poll that was designed to only give certain responses and that I then used the answers to justify my argument - essentially attributing a malicious intent to the poll which is not the case. I am not an expert in polling models or language and admit that fact. The options I gave were ones which I felt all potential respondents could easily identify with and put themselves into one category.

Could the poll have been better? Certainly, but I do not have the resources or professional expertise of Gallup or Ipsos Mori. Does this invalidate the poll? No, because people have been willing to freely categorise themselves and I have taken their responses at face value - yes, they could have lied (and you clearly feel that many of those who claim they will no longer support GW will do so anyway) but how is that different to any other poll? Exit polls at political elections are rarely completely accurate but it does not invalidate the general trends they show.


I believe that the results (inadequate as they may be) are indicative of a general dissatisfaction with GW and I have brought this to the attention of someone who ought to care about this. Will it make a difference? Perhaps not but not doing anything would not have made a difference either. I'm voting with my wallet and not supporting GW until and unless they change the way they do business and I know I'm not alone - but I fail to see how refusing to communicate with them is going to make things any better.

I thought the poll was quite accurate TBH. And it seems to imply that many people on here don't really want to spend as much on GW products as the CEO would like. I personally haven't made a purchase in a while, nor plan to. I have stuff to paint up and I've pretty much told myself - I must get them done. And when those are done, I may consider buying more stuff. It won't be much in the long run.

Leigen_Zero wrote:I'm not so much 'quitting' GW, just moving to other areas (more deserving of my disposable income) until GW get their act together.

True Story. I've been playing more airsoft and repairing my damaged guns that I never got around to fixing

It seems to me that even in many of those who state they will continue to purchase GW items much of the "joy" and "enthusiasm" is gone, and it's become a situation of "Well...I have this or that army to finish..but won't start anything new"

I know this is the case in my situation.

I'll keep buying, playing and painting... but i am goign to have to buy less unfortunatly. jus thtis last weekend i got 20 ork boys, 1 AoBR box and a loota box... but that was my 3 month warhammer budget and last month it'd have gotten a bit more

See? Exactly. It's not going to stop it, just slow it down...

People love the game and love the miniatures, even if they don't like GW's business practices

nkelsch wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
nkelsch, get the hell back in your corner. If you don't like what Calvin is doing, explain it in less fragrant and inciteful terminology. What you're posting now reeks of flamebait and trolling.

Biased poll is biased. But let's treat it if it was legitimate.

<snip>

So why should the president of GW consider his changes a failure or a bad thing? This poll shows that it is a documented success in every capacity.

That is certainly some... remarkable logic (to use a neutral word).

Let us consider the poll results as they stand now;

Are you actually leaving GW?
I already stopped buying from them before recent events 18% [ 116 ]
I have stopped buying from them because of recent events 16% [ 100 ]
I will make one last purchase to finish current projects but nothing else 11% [ 70 ]
I will continue to buy from them, but not as much as before 31% [ 192 ]
This will not affect my buying habits 21% [ 134 ]
I will buy MORE!! GW are the best! 3% [ 17 ]
Total Votes: 629

Let us skip over the categories that are ambiguous, and concentrate on the two that are quite clear:

I have stopped buying from them because of recent events 16% [ 100 ]
I will buy MORE!! GW are the best! 3% [ 17 ]
Total Votes: 629

Now, of course, this includes the people that have already stopped purchasing (116, 18% of respondents), so, let's exclude them from the results, which results in;

I have stopped buying from them because of recent events 19% [ 100 ]
I will buy MORE!! GW are the best! 3% [ 17 ]
Total Votes: 513

So, according to this poll, of the respondents that currently purchase GW products, for every 1 person that will increase their purchasing, just under 6 customers will abandon the brand.

Now, again, we have the issue of the forums being a non-random sample: but surely this forum cannot be considered unrepresentative of the hobby as a whole? Which is only important only so far as the GW brand is almost completely dependent on word of mouth advertising.

Any change or series of changes that results in the loss of nearly 20% of your customer base seems... ill suited, to be described as a success.

I'm done! My Orks will be the last srmy I buy from GW. I have x5 40k armies, all in the +5000pts range. I'll keep them upto date, so much if there is a new codex or rule book, but no more models.

Sodapop are now getting my model money and I'm on the look out for a new games system to play.

Where I go, 5 others follow.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:See? Exactly. It's not going to stop it, just slow it down...

People love the game and love the miniatures, even if they don't like GW's business practices

...But, as more and more people opt to simply "complete" current armies ( especially if they use ebay/swaps to do so) and refuse to start "new" armies, then surely this affects GW on some level.
A company can not exist simply by selling "starter boxes" to "new" customers, and at some point the exodus of "veteran" players must make some impact.

I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

GW will continue to have my support as much as they always have done since they got me into the hobby and have provided me with more hours of enjoyment than I can count.

FITZZ wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:See? Exactly. It's not going to stop it, just slow it down...

People love the game and love the miniatures, even if they don't like GW's business practices

...But, as more and more people opt to simply "complete" current armies ( especially if they use ebay/swaps to do so) and refuse to start "new" armies, then surely this affects GW on some level.
A company can not exist simply by selling "starter boxes" to "new" customers, and at some point the exodus of "veteran" players must make some impact.

Indeed, but it's not like there aren't going to be ANY new people starting, in the same way that the majority of the veterans will in fact stay.

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I think and have always thought that GW make the best models and the best rulesets, with privateer press being a close second.

GW will continue to have my support as much as they always have done since they got me into the hobby and have provided me with more hours of enjoyment than I can count.

and to counter those who feel I am not impartial, good on you HMH

I don't personally agree, but it would be an uninteresting world if we all felt the same

The hobby is enjoyable. The best way to experience it is by GW miniature monopoly. It's that simple, enough said.