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One thing I caught in the 'masters' section, the God of War ability allows ALL units on the table to pass or fail morale at will?

Is there a clause that states these abilities only work for your units, or was this intentional (Like Skarbrand) ?

Edit: One other thing as well; Giving my Sisters of Battle your special issue ammo is nice when you field the Hail of Death

The rule God of War only effects units in the same army as the model with the special rule

redkommando wrote:The rule God of War only effects units in the same army as the model with the special rule

I figured that, but it doesn't state as much anywhere I've seen.

The one problem I noticed (in my mind anyway) is that storm shields only cost 5 points in most places. This should probably be higher? Newcron lords have to shed our 45 points for the same invulnerable save so it seems a little cheap when you compare them?

Anyhow, great work and I can't wait for the finished product! Once it's done ill likely use this as it means i can have a Salamanders army without Vulcan in it!

I figured that, but it doesn't state as much anywhere I've seen.

It does the SM codex

redkommando wrote:

I figured that, but it doesn't state as much anywhere I've seen.

It does the SM codex

You missed my point, then Not everyone has an SM codex; should I have to buy the SM codex to use this work, or was it intended to be stand-alone? (For reference, I do have the SM codex. My point was that the upgrades don't state they only work for your army in THIS ruleset.)

You missed my point, then Not everyone has an SM codex; should I have to buy the SM codex to use this work, or was it intended to be stand-alone? (For reference, I do have the SM codex. My point was that the upgrades don't state they only work for your army in THIS ruleset.)

Ah I see where your' e coming from now
True, True.

Although the Chapter Creator does say that Command Squads and Honour Guards can be taken from the SM Codex

Could some one explain the beast and them being mounts to me a bit better i'm have trouble understanding how they work.

ironhandstraken wrote:Could some one explain the beast and them being mounts to me a bit better i'm have trouble understanding how they work.

Each size of beast provides its own stats and its locomotion (movement type) is transferred to the rider (Slow and Purposeful, Infantry, Cavalry, or Jump Infantry). The mount will cost as much as its base cost plus any locomotion changes and added attributes.

For example, lets say I wanted to have a Hero riding something badass, like a Dragon. I'd start with using the Monstrous Beast base (20 points), which naturally provides +3 modified Toughness, +2 Strength, and +1 Attack to the rider. Dragons have wings, so I make the mount Flying for +18 points, which makes the rider count as Jump Infantry and brings the mount's points total up to 38. Dragons breath fire, so I'll add Flame Breath to the mount for +20 points (bringing the mounts cost up to 58 points). Now because of the sheer bulk of the dragon I want to add more wounds to the rider, so I give the mount Hard to Kill (+1 Wound to the rider) for +15 points (bringing the mounts cost up to 73 points).

Voila, you now have your Dragon mount which confers the model the ability to have a Flamestorm Cannon attack in the shooting phase and provides +3 modified Toughness, +2 Strength, +1 Attack, and +1 Wound for 73 points.

You can also reserve engineer a unit simply by reading the riding beast section using a similar method as described above.

So depending on what you give the mount is what the rider has.

- ironhandstraken

ironhandstraken wrote:So depending on what you give the mount is what the rider has.

- ironhandstraken

Pretty much. There are limitations though, which are listed in the entry.

Heey, this is epic, i can finally make my Luna Wolves by using the Vanilla marine codex.
These are some good news.

abhus wrote:Heey, this is epic, i can finally make my Luna Wolves by using the Vanilla marine codex.
These are some good news.

I'm in the process of making a Space Marines fan codex which will basically incorporate a more simplistic, streamlined version of these rules.

I'll eventually get back on those Psychic Powers, but for now my InDesign exploded so that will have to wait now. x.x

I love you Marik. Played a game this morning with furious rend marines. SHOOTING PHASE? I THINK YOU MEAN RUNNING PHASE.

One thing:

Tanks. Tanks do not mention fire points or access points. I want my 45 Point 13/11/10 Assault Rhinos, but I can't enter or exit them.

chrisrawr wrote:I love you Marik. Played a game this morning with furious rend marines. SHOOTING PHASE? I THINK YOU MEAN RUNNING PHASE.

One thing:

Tanks. Tanks do not mention fire points or access points. I want my 45 Point 13/11/10 Assault Rhinos, but I can't enter or exit them.

These are the same as they are in Codex Space Marines.

Are you planning on making another for a different army E.G. chaos space marines

Marik Law wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:I love you Marik. Played a game this morning with furious rend marines. SHOOTING PHASE? I THINK YOU MEAN RUNNING PHASE.

One thing:

Tanks. Tanks do not mention fire points or access points. I want my 45 Point 13/11/10 Assault Rhinos, but I can't enter or exit them.

These are the same as they are in Codex Space Marines.

I might be missing some key element of this process.

Also, for creating a custom unit; I can have 14 point jump pack models wielding rapid-fire infernus pistols or rapid-fire rending flamers (which increases both of their ranges to 12", by the way). Non-bolter weapons probably need a points cost. There should also be a clause limiting the points per model for units to a certain cap; "Apply all negative modifiers first. This cannot normally reduce points below 14 for non-sergeant models."

Also, Minor Chapter Tactics - does that simply apply to the Captain, or does the entire army get it?

And finally, there are no "space marine tanks" in the CSM5E. I might be missing a replacement clause here that makes them Rhinos.

Shield of the Emperor: I think you want this to lift the ban on Storm Shields negating +1 attacks from 2CCW? Might need a rewording for that, because it doesn't quite do it as is.

ironhandstraken wrote:Are you planning on making another for a different army E.G. chaos space marines

Sadly no. This was a huge undertaking for me, one that I will not be repeating again. I'll either be making army codex books or supplement books from now on, nothing this drastic.

chrisrawr wrote:I might be missing some key element of this process.

Also, for creating a custom unit; I can have 14 point jump pack models wielding rapid-fire infernus pistols or rapid-fire rending flamers (which increases both of their ranges to 12", by the way). Non-bolter weapons probably need a points cost. There should also be a clause limiting the points per model for units to a certain cap; "Apply all negative modifiers first. This cannot normally reduce points below 14 for non-sergeant models."

Also, Minor Chapter Tactics - does that simply apply to the Captain, or does the entire army get it?

And finally, there are no "space marine tanks" in the CSM5E. I might be missing a replacement clause here that makes them Rhinos.

Shield of the Emperor: I think you want this to lift the ban on Storm Shields negating +1 attacks from 2CCW? Might need a rewording for that, because it doesn't quite do it as is.

1) The document requires Codex Space Marines to use. Hence why some things are purposely left out.

2) On unit creation, I don't know how you accomplished this, the lowest point cost I could get a Squad with Jump Packs is 19 points per model and that was by lowering their BS to 3. You cannot Rapid Fire modify a pistol (the entry for Rapid Fire modification clearly says Assault only, where as an Inferno pistol is classified as a Pistol, not Assault). Also I neglected to put in that you can't upgrade a Template range weapon to Rapid Fire either, that will be fixed in the final version. Also, wargear can't be a negative value, it is either Free or costs points (so if the piece of wargear was -5 points, it would simply be Free instead). Weapon point costs are balanced in terms of statistics, personally I don't think that any of the weapons listed needs to be labeled as "on par" with a Plasma Pistol, as then options like the Plasma Pistol become an obvious choice.

3) If its a Chapter Trait or a Chapter Tactic, it benefits the whole army unless the trait or tactic in question says otherwise. For example, some Trait/Tactic entries say that they do not effect Vehicles or do not effect models in Terminator armour.

4) A "Tank" is a Rhino chassis, the reason I labeled it "Tank" is because A) that's what they are, and B) the designation Rhino only belongs to that transport vehicle. So the "Tank" mentioned in the Chapter Creator rules is an armored vehicle which uses a Rhino chassis as a base, like virtually every Space Marine tank apart from the Land Raider.

5) For the storm shield rule, this is being removed in the final version. For the time being, these are add-on rules so always assume that if a rule in the Chapter Creator contradicts or overrides a rule in Codex Space Marines, go along with the Chapter Creator.

Any further questions, let me know.

1) Sorry,I meant in the document itself. I have the C:SM5E, so I was just wondering.

2) Unit creation doesn't allow for special rules from section 6, then? Because there's the gunfighter special rule. Slow and purposeful doesn't really bother me as I've got jump packs, poor vision doesn't bother me beacuse I've got templates, and neither does -bs. There's a couple others that can artificially lower the points cost, especially when used with modifiers.

3) Awesome, just checking! Now, on the same bent, if I don't take chapter tactics and instead put them into my Combat Practices, does this effectively give me 4 Combat Practices and a Company or Minor Company Tactic?

4) Alright just making sure. It wasn't explicitely stated anywhere. There's also nothing restricting firepoints when you reduce transport capacity to 'razorback' mode (i.e. you can make cheap 'razorbacks' with 2 fire points. Beastly for devsquads!)

5) Alright :C I miss my Ork equivalent of awesome. And I've usually gone with specific trumps general; so yes it's an extra weapon in CC, but no you still wouldn't benefit from it xD Which is why I thought it seemed silly even though the intent is clear.

This is a lot to read through Marik Law but there's one question that has immediately popped into mind was the points for the characteristics. S has a steeper gradient on the 'to-wound' table than WS does on the 'to-hit' and accounts towards other factors (Instant Death). So why is it less expensive? Personally I would have marked WS at 5pts per increment and S at 10pts.

Will probably find many more questions later but I need to find some time to read it first. Nice production work though. InDesign or Xpress?

chrisrawr wrote:1) Sorry,I meant in the document itself. I have the C:SM5E, so I was just wondering.

2) Unit creation doesn't allow for special rules from section 6, then? Because there's the gunfighter special rule. Slow and purposeful doesn't really bother me as I've got jump packs, poor vision doesn't bother me beacuse I've got templates, and neither does -bs. There's a couple others that can artificially lower the points cost, especially when used with modifiers.

3) Awesome, just checking! Now, on the same bent, if I don't take chapter tactics and instead put them into my Combat Practices, does this effectively give me 4 Combat Practices and a Company or Minor Company Tactic?

4) Alright just making sure. It wasn't explicitely stated anywhere. There's also nothing restricting firepoints when you reduce transport capacity to 'razorback' mode (i.e. you can make cheap 'razorbacks' with 2 fire points. Beastly for devsquads!)

5) Alright :C I miss my Ork equivalent of awesome. And I've usually gone with specific trumps general; so yes it's an extra weapon in CC, but no you still wouldn't benefit from it xD Which is why I thought it seemed silly even though the intent is clear.

2) Sadly I neglected to put a limit in for the other way around, I also neglected to put in rules preventing certain units from taking certain downsides (like Assault or Bike squads taking Slow & Purposeful). This will be fixed in the final version.

3) Yes, that is correct. If you take no Chapter Tactics you can take two additional Combat Practices/Deviations, but note that you are still limited to a single Deviation.

4) Basically if you give the tank a Light Turret or Heavy Turret, that firepoint is removed. This will be clarified in the final version.

Greyish wrote:This is a lot to read through Marik Law but there's one question that has immediately popped into mind was the points for the characteristics. S has a steeper gradient on the 'to-wound' table than WS does on the 'to-hit' and accounts towards other factors (Instant Death). So why is it less expensive? Personally I would have marked WS at 5pts per increment and S at 10pts.

Will probably find many more questions later but I need to find some time to read it first. Nice production work though. InDesign or Xpress?

The book isn't playtested, so any playtesting received is awesome.

As for the program, InDesign. I do professional work so I always default to InDesign.

I'm going through it with some friends on vassal. We're breaking things - this is good, because it means that problems in it are being addressed. We're making lists of things that are confusing in practice, or that take a little leap of intuition to realize RAI.

It's Solid. It's really solid. There's always going to be some broken things going on when you give people this many options - Theoretical Optimization comes into play and you get some really powerful options (Like 55 point T5 Assault Terminator troops with FNP and first turn assault in 170 point invincible boxes that get +1 +1d6 attacks that trigger more attacks, led by a T7 Termichampion that makes all your vehicles into AV14 stormraven-waveserpents.)

Or relentless super-heavy scouts with 2+ cover saves that take shooting at -3BS.

We haven't gotten to designing custom wargear yet.

But yes, the most broken thing I've made so far has been Turn 1 double-rending-rerolling-wounds-flamer swarms. They are like bees that shoot fire. Statistical average for 150 points of them hitting 3 per template against MEQ has been 16.6666 rends and 16.66666 regular wounds.

chrisrawr wrote:I'm going through it with some friends on vassal. We're breaking things - this is good, because it means that problems in it are being addressed. We're making lists of things that are confusing in practice, or that take a little leap of intuition to realize RAI.

It's Solid. It's really solid. There's always going to be some broken things going on when you give people this many options - Theoretical Optimization comes into play and you get some really powerful options (Like 55 point T5 Assault Terminator troops with FNP and first turn assault in 170 point invincible boxes that get +1 +1d6 attacks that trigger more attacks, led by a T7 Termichampion that makes all your vehicles into AV14 stormraven-waveserpents.)

Or relentless super-heavy scouts with 2+ cover saves that take shooting at -3BS.

We haven't gotten to designing custom wargear yet.

But yes, the most broken thing I've made so far has been Turn 1 double-rending-rerolling-wounds-flamer swarms. They are like bees that shoot fire. Statistical average for 150 points of them hitting 3 per template against MEQ has been 16.6666 rends and 16.66666 regular wounds.

Well any problems you find with balancing, put them into a point list and describe how you managed to break each one. I'll attempt to correct it in the final version.

One thing that's really fun: Shunt-Warping (because you can apparently make you vehicles into jump infantry <3) dreadnaught jumper hero with 2+ cover that pretty much ignores what little firing hits him through fields and magic. Using an S8 weapon (since all weapons are S8) you need 215 ap1 shots to wreck it on average.

Monstrous Creature (+1d6 pen, power weapon) costs 10, compared to 8 points for +1d6 pen and power weapon.

chrisrawr wrote:One thing that's really fun: Shunt-Warping (because you can apparently make you vehicles into jump infantry <3) dreadnaught jumper hero with 2+ cover that pretty much ignores what little firing hits him through fields and magic. Using an S8 weapon (since all weapons are S8) you need 215 ap1 shots to wreck it on average.

Monstrous Creature (+1d6 pen, power weapon) costs 10, compared to 8 points for +1d6 pen and power weapon.

But with MC I belief you get advantages when moving through terrain

I'm going to use this to make my space marines Night Guard chapter!

So far just have the chapter master:

Menistis the guard Lord- 230
1) 6 7 4 4 3 6 4 10 3+/4+
power armor, shield of Theastis, Keteasal bolter, Frag and Krak grenades, iron halo
special rules: ATSKNF, stealth, move through cover, independent character, god of war, Lone warrior

Shield: for every failed attack a str 4 attack is dealt back to attacking enemy, chaos gains the preferred enemy rule against this unit

Keteasal flamer: template s4 ap 5 gets hot! poison (4+), rending

jgehunter wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:One thing that's really fun: Shunt-Warping (because you can apparently make you vehicles into jump infantry <3) dreadnaught jumper hero with 2+ cover that pretty much ignores what little firing hits him through fields and magic. Using an S8 weapon (since all weapons are S8) you need 215 ap1 shots to wreck it on average.

Monstrous Creature (+1d6 pen, power weapon) costs 10, compared to 8 points for +1d6 pen and power weapon.

But with MC I belief you get advantages when moving through terrain

It's for attacks in close combat only, so not really applicable here.

chrisrawr wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:One thing that's really fun: Shunt-Warping (because you can apparently make you vehicles into jump infantry <3) dreadnaught jumper hero with 2+ cover that pretty much ignores what little firing hits him through fields and magic. Using an S8 weapon (since all weapons are S8) you need 215 ap1 shots to wreck it on average.

Monstrous Creature (+1d6 pen, power weapon) costs 10, compared to 8 points for +1d6 pen and power weapon.

But with MC I belief you get advantages when moving through terrain

It's for attacks in close combat only, so not really applicable here.

My bad, should have read it first

Just wondering when we could expect the final version?
Me and a mate have printed it out and I quite like is so I am going with a Siege-Marines kind of theme (and being able to take IG Basalisk's, that is awesome).
there are a couple of things I want to ask:
1. I want to mod a Snpier rifle to give it Lance, Melta and Get's Hot! with the ammo thing can I do that? and do I still get the rules for a normal sniper (eg Pinning+Rending)?
2. After reading most of this thread I did realise that I could make weapons, rules and wargear cheaper by give negative modifiers that won't make a diffrence anyway.
3. When you could change the standard equipment it list's stuff like Storm Shields, Power Fists, Lighting Claws and a few others that you can only get by buying the with points. do you need to have the Combat pratice for it (i.e Shields of the Emporer for Storm Shields) to give it to them?

Thats all I can think about
Cheers

Merc Row wrote:Just wondering when we could expect the final version?
Me and a mate have printed it out and I quite like is so I am going with a Siege-Marines kind of theme (and being able to take IG Basalisk's, that is awesome).
there are a couple of things I want to ask:
1. I want to mod a Snpier rifle to give it Lance, Melta and Get's Hot! with the ammo thing can I do that? and do I still get the rules for a normal sniper (eg Pinning+Rending)?
2. After reading most of this thread I did realise that I could make weapons, rules and wargear cheaper by give negative modifiers that won't make a diffrence anyway.
3. When you could change the standard equipment it list's stuff like Storm Shields, Power Fists, Lighting Claws and a few others that you can only get by buying the with points. do you need to have the Combat pratice for it (i.e Shields of the Emporer for Storm Shields) to give it to them?

Thats all I can think about
Cheers

Won't be for a bit unfortunately as I have a deadline for a major card game project due next week, so my free time is pretty limited right now.

1) Yes, but it would cost you 20 points.

2) This is being fixed/changed in the next version.

3) If a unit in Codex Space Marines does not already have something than yes, you must use Combat Practices or Chapter Traits. The Unit Creator section, in and of itself, has its own restrictions and limitations to the number of new units you can create or the number of units from the codex you can replace.