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My chapter master for my plasma company.
Faith Rewards Strength

My the Emperor's Light Destroy Our Foes

Veteran Chapter Master:125

rendering:10

2 plasma sword(5 for ccw)
- Always wounds on a to-wound roll of 2+ in close combat (+20 points)
-On a roll of 5+ the weapon causes Instant Death to the wounded target (+10 points)
-Will always hit in close combat on a to-hit roll of 3+ (+10 points)

total 90

total 225

I like!!!! 13th company will be posted soon.
Any ideas for the Wulfen packs?

At this codexs current stage, it is UNACCEPTABLE.
It is a good start but giving 4x power boosts to a basic marine without drawbacks of any kind? Thats just wrong...not even a basic base line upgrade for what their capable of doing. The mutations need to be worked on because right now "mutations" sounds more like "benefits under another name".
I like it alot and i love customizing units to make somthing new and never seen but right now all I see instead of whole new Chapters is "UBA-SPESHMRINES mkII,III, and IV"

The first step to stopping power gaming is making sure every plus carrys a minus inside, not another plus.

king-newmic wrote:At this codexs current stage, it is UNACCEPTABLE.
It is a good start but giving 4x power boosts to a basic marine without drawbacks of any kind? Thats just wrong...not even a basic base line upgrade for what their capable of doing. The mutations need to be worked on because right now "mutations" sounds more like "benefits under another name".
I like it alot and i love customizing units to make somthing new and never seen but right now all I see instead of whole new Chapters is "UBA-SPESHMRINES mkII,III, and IV"

The first step to stopping power gaming is making sure every plus carrys a minus inside, not another plus.

Would you care to elaborate on would you mean? I never said these rules would stop power gaming, however what I did say was that we, as hobby gamers, need to stop worrying about it so much by stopping the process of trying to turn this game into a serious, sports-esque competitive game. I also make a long note about how if you feel a player is using these rules (or any other rules for that matter) to "power game" (including min-maxing) to simply refuse to play with them. Power gamers are always going to weed their way into gaming, no matter how hard you hammer out rules to make them "balanced." Simply adding a minus to a plus isn't going to stop power gamers, hence why I haven't introduced things like Drawbacks (everyone simply abused the Drawbacks from the former Space Marine chapter creation rules in Codex Space Marines anyways, so why bother).

Not saying that you don't have a valid point or anything, if anything I appreciate the concern, I just think the game as a whole is headed to bad territory trying to be as balanced as possible at the expense of the hobbyists (but that's for an entire different thread).

If it helps here is how I came about this process of creating these rules sets...

1) Combat Practices & Mutations: After studying Codex Blood Angels, Codex Dark Angels, and Codex Space Wolves, I noted that each chapter had two general special rules not found in vanilla chapters (Blood Angels have Descent of Angels and Red Thirst, Space Wolves have Counter-Attack and Acute Senses/Night Vision, and Dark Angels being the oldest of the three Codex books has Stubborn). Thus, it made sense to me that a Codex chapter could have two special skills as well without added points costs as actual Codex chapters didn't suffer point increases from such either. Mutations are stronger, hence why you are only allowed one and hence why each tends to come with downsides (Bloodlust only works on a D6 roll of 6, Hardened Body/Sturdy reduces Initiative and consolidate/sweeping advance range, and Keen Senses I didn't feel needed anything as it was pretty in-line balance-wise with the regular Combat Practices, and I've rebalanced a few of the other ones as well). If you have any problems with a particular rule being potentially too good as I stated before please, let me know, and I'll see what I can do about fixing it.

2) Chapter Tactics: Chapters having organizational variances has been around since third edition, it was with 4th Edition that these variances were snuffed out in the actual rules and have started seeing a re-emergence with Blood Angels and Space Wolves in 5th Edition. I simply elaborated on what has been done about chapters in the past and what is being done with chapters in the present while adding in a few more options to round out the choices more. I was originally going to include Drawbacks, but ditched this idea after the rampant abuse of the Drawbacks system from the last generation of Space Marine Divergent Chapter Rules from 4th Edition, besides it seems Games-Workshop has done away with chapter flaws anyways with merging the various Chapters into one vanilla codex.

With that said, however, I may eventually end up categorizing the non-mutation Combat Practices so you have to choose from a particular category.

3) Heroes, Unique Forces, Special Rules, Wargear, etc: This is a bit easier to balance as everything in this area costs or deducts points. Sure you can keep piling on wargear, stats, and special rules to a hero or unit, but then their points cost is going to be astronomical (speaking of points caps, Heroes will have a Points Cap of 300 points in the finalized version of the rules and each Unique Forces unit listing will have a points cap as well).

Here's an example of a chapter I would like to use:
Zeal is thy greatest Weapon (Furious Charge + Rage)
Leave them no quarter (Counter Charge)
On wings of angels (Assault squads become troops + Scoring)
Heed the wisdom of the ancients (Dreads become scoring + Can be used as HQ, Elite or Heavy)

Vet Chapter Master (Some special character) 285pts + cost of Storm Shield and Jump pack
Fierce, Alert, Furious, Eternal Warrior, Specialisation (Lightning Claws. Hero only), Precision (Reroll to hit in CC. Honour Guard unit only)
Special Weapon: Lightning Claw (Ignores Invul, +D6 attacks) will reroll to hit and wound.
Wargear: Storm Shield, Jump Pack
6 5 5 4 3 6 D6+4 10 3++
+ he has furious charge, rage and counter attack

Honour Guard for Vet Chapter Master 21pts p/m
Assault Squad: Furious Charge, Rage, Counter Attack, Reroll to wound in cc
Special CC weapon: Chainsword + D3 attacks

As one can gather this will be an all out assault army with Ass Squads as troops + scoring dreads as heavy and elite choices.
The Hero of this army is going to be a monster in cc and his honour guard will have D3+4 I5 S5 attacks on the charge reroll to wound!!
Talk about a Deathstar... Will be great to have them in a Storm Raven

This hero might be a bit OP though...
Does the Rage and lack of 2+ save make him not OP?

Eh, maybe i am over reacting to this a little too hard. Nevermind previous statment then

Jut thinking about it: the chapter tactics look a little too strong. Scoring dreads are really too strong, but i loved Ven. Dreads counting as HQs

About mutations: why there is not any mutation that increase initiative? Maybe lower gravity worlds could produce aglie, nimble (but relatively) fragile marines (+1 Initiative, -1 Thougnes, treated as bonus, so dont apling to instant death)

I liked it, but whas thinking on how to use the chapter rules without the need for a chapter master... anyway, congratulations

BoTW wrote:This hero might be a bit OP though...
Does the Rage and lack of 2+ save make him not OP?

I wouldn't think so, he is after all 285 points. There will be some balancing revisions made in the final version, however, so be prepared.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Jut thinking about it: the chapter tactics look a little too strong. Scoring dreads are really too strong, but i loved Ven. Dreads counting as HQs

About mutations: why there is not any mutation that increase initiative? Maybe lower gravity worlds could produce aglie, nimble (but relatively) fragile marines (+1 Initiative, -1 Thougnes, treated as bonus, so dont apling to instant death)

I liked it, but whas thinking on how to use the chapter rules without the need for a chapter master... anyway, congratulations

Thanks for the input! You're right, Dreadnoughts being scoring is a bit too beefy and has been removed in the final version.

Thanks to your suggestion, the final version will have a new mutation: Nimble, +1 Initiative at the cost of -1 Strength (muscles are used to being able to move quickly and have become frail). If you have any more suggestions for mutations, let me know as the section is pretty scrawny right now.

I don't know of a Space Marine chapter that doesn't have a Chapter Master or some kind of acting figurehead. Perhaps if you told me your chapter's situation and why they don't have a Chapter Master I could look into adding something.

You should add a dreadnought chapter master

Blood Angel 17 wrote:You should add a dreadnought chapter master

Consider it done. I've also changer the Chapter Master rule a bit, it's now part of an additive section called Masters. There are seven Masters and you can have one of each in the chapter (one of which is the Master of the Chapter), each having their own special rule (Master of the Chapter has God of War now instead of Orbital Bombardment, Master of the Fleet now has a better version of Orbital Bombardment) I've also removed the requirement that your chapter needs a Chapter Master as well.

I absolutely love this! (made an account just to tell you so!) Really got me thinking about starting Raven Guard again.

With that in mind, how did you intend the "Talons of Eagles" Combat Practice to work? Specifically, you say: "any model or unit which may take a power weapon but does not normally have access to lightning claws", and I cannot find any units in the vanilla codex this applies to, unless you extend "power weapons" to cover powerfists and Relic blades, in which case standard termies and honourguard could take them as an option. Other than this, the only way for a unit to be affected by this would be if the Sergeant having the option to take power weapons leads to the whole squad having the option to take lightning claws. Are either of these intended outcomes? Otherwise, the only affected models would be the scout sergeant, devastator sargeant and techmarine.

I'm not sure I think this is a problem as such, but given the amazing unit and hero creation system you have in place, which allows you to add lightning claws to pretty much anyone, is it enough to have "Talons of Eagles" just make lightning claws mastercrafted, for simplicitys sake? I guess the thunderhammer and powerfist Combat Practices may be similar.

Thanks again for making this, hope this post isnt too long winded! Ill be seeking out pen and paper and making my Raven Guard this evening!

jim me lad wrote:I absolutely love this! (made an account just to tell you so!) Really got me thinking about starting Raven Guard again.

With that in mind, how did you intend the "Talons of Eagles" Combat Practice to work? Specifically, you say: "any model or unit which may take a power weapon but does not normally have access to lightning claws", and I cannot find any units in the vanilla codex this applies to, unless you extend "power weapons" to cover powerfists and Relic blades, in which case standard termies and honourguard could take them as an option. Other than this, the only way for a unit to be affected by this would be if the Sergeant having the option to take power weapons leads to the whole squad having the option to take lightning claws. Are either of these intended outcomes? Otherwise, the only affected models would be the scout sergeant, devastator sargeant and techmarine.

I'm not sure I think this is a problem as such, but given the amazing unit and hero creation system you have in place, which allows you to add lightning claws to pretty much anyone, is it enough to have "Talons of Eagles" just make lightning claws mastercrafted, for simplicitys sake? I guess the thunderhammer and powerfist Combat Practices may be similar.

Thanks again for making this, hope this post isnt too long winded! Ill be seeking out pen and paper and making my Raven Guard this evening!

Basically only models which have access to a power weapon via upgrades can have access to these weapons. However, in the final version, you can make your own units and even replace a few squads in the army with them, so it'll be much easier to make a lightning claw-heavy chapter no problem. The final version is going to have a lot of improvements to it as well in terms of how easy it is to understand and read, such as the Hero Creation and Unique Forces (Unit Creation) sections, which are way easier to maneuver around and use.

The praise the machine god tactic
That let's you make tech marines sergeants masters of the forge elites and what not should be nerfed to the status for the equivalent rule for chaplains and librarians

As it takes up 1 to get special sergeants while the others take two

very nice.... subscribed to this.... I even saved the current version on my flash drive (If that's cool with you Marik?)... I'll definately be using this when I create my chapter...

L33TFROG wrote:The praise the machine god tactic
That let's you make tech marines sergeants masters of the forge elites and what not should be nerfed to the status for the equivalent rule for chaplains and librarians

As it takes up 1 to get special sergeants while the others take two

This is due to the potency of the units in question. Having any Sergeant be able to upgrade to a psyker or a Chaplain is a pretty big deal. As a psyker, the unit gains added psychic powers for either protection or offensive might. For Priests, the unit becomes Fearless and gets bonuses when they charge. Where as with a Techmarine the unit doesn't really benefit all too much, they can bolster ruins (if there are any) and repair vehicles, so they don't really offer as much to a squad's potency as a Psyker or a Priest does. This is why I made the decision to have Praise The Machine God only be one level instead of two.

AFPredator wrote:very nice.... subscribed to this.... I even saved the current version on my flash drive (If that's cool with you Marik?)... I'll definately be using this when I create my chapter...

No problem at all. Hope everyone is looking forward to the prettier, improved, and easier to understand final version. Added some new things, balanced some others, changed a few things.

First off I love this supplement, I was really sad when there were no rules in the new marine dex for custom chapters.
Anyway my question was have you thought of custom Psychic powers?
I'm just wondering cause my chapter took Knowledge above all and wanted to craft my own.

dragonfire wrote:First off I love this supplement, I was really sad when there were no rules in the new marine dex for custom chapters.
Anyway my question was have you thought of custom Psychic powers?
I'm just wondering cause my chapter took Knowledge above all and wanted to craft my own.

There will most certainly be Custom Psychic Powers in the final version, however I'm still stuck on the Custom Wargear section. Lots of different Wargear options and special rules and I want to make sure I don't miss any. Been digging through every Codex and Imperial Armour book for inspiration.

So when will we be lucky enough to see the final version?

This is such a cool idea... Makes me want to work out a small chapter of Marines

megabambam wrote:So when will we be lucky enough to see the final version?

Hopefully before the month (September) is out. Taking my time with the newly revamped Wargear section and Special Rules to make sure there is a wide array of things to choose from to allow the best customizable experience for the marine players using it.

(Warning, long post ahead!!)

Okay, before I start saying anything, I just want to say how awesome of an idea this is. It's great to see some people also agree that the hobby side of the game is just as important as the game side.

However, with that being said, I have a few questions/concerns/problems.

I'll start out this by saying, though I've only had your chapter creator for a few days now, I've fully read and absorbed all of the material you presented. It looks good at a quick glance. You gave what looks to be good points for everything, etc.

Now, I also know that each codex has some point discrepancies as well. I too own all the up to date codexes printed so far, and when trying to make a unit, I've come across a point value problem.

Ledend/key code:
DA: Dark Angels
SM: Space Marine (main codex)
BT: Black Templars
BA: Blood Angels (wont be mentioned, as a friend has that codex with him right now.)
CC: Chapter Creator

I'll start with something simple. I've taken the normal Dreadnought and broken it down. They shall all for our sanity have the same equipment on them, an assault cannon and Dreadnought close combat weapon with built in Storm bolter.

Dreadnought: 20 pts
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon: 40 pts
With built in Storm bolter: 5 pts
Assault Cannon: 35 pts
Smoke Launchers and Searchlights: 5 pts
Total cost: CC 105 pts total
DA: 125 pts total
BT: 105 pts total
SM: 115 pts total

I have a problem as I'm trying to create a Dark Angel's themed chapter with only a few minor tweaks and alterations to create my own successor chapter. If I follow your creator, I come up with a cheaper base for my upcoming unique deadnought than it would be for a normal dreadnought of my chapter. I'm already planing of adding in the 20 pts missing from my custom deadnought to make it match. I was just wondering why the points seemed so low.

Now for the Landraider. This model is base across the board, no changes and no point difference between chapters (excluding the for the moment missing Blood Angels.

Landraider: 140
Lascannon: 40
-Twinlinked: 15 (heavy weapon)
-Side mounts: 5 pts (for the two sides)
Heavy Bolder: 20
-Twinlinked: 15 (heavy weapon)
- Front mount: 5
Smoke launchers and Searchlights: 5
Total points: CC: 245
SP: DA: BT: 250

5 points isn't much to worry about, so I call that accurate enough. Though I did have a question about how to increase transport capacity, particularly in the case of the Landraider Crusader. It still has side mounts and a front mount, while having 16 models transport. The max you can get with your creator is by having no weapons on it at all and even then you get only a max of 14. Am I reading this wrong? Maybe you should have troop expansion bays being a point cost, instead of based off armaments. (I would also assume your point system had landraider Crusaders with a multi-melta as an upgrade.)

Landspeeders once again come up with a small point discrepancy.

Landspeeder: 50 pts
Heavy Bolter: 20
Total: CC: 70
DA: 65 (weapon choices maybe? Or just old codex...)
SM: BT: 50

Two codexes agree on 50 points. So would that make it so the Landspeeder's base cost be 20 points less? Or maybe the Heavy Bolter is free for them? I'd suggest the former.

I suggest changing the base for the other above vehicles to match the normal costs of their corresponding entries in already existing codexes. Majority rules for them maybe? Dark Angel themed Dreadnoughts would just be more expensive, but probably because they have the Venrable upgrade option unlike most others. Special rule for them probably...

Now, after you read all that, I just want to say, I don't want to put your system down. it's a great thing! Just, needs some tweeks and edits maybe. I post this in the light to help you create a better and more point accurate guide. I don't post this with any intent to downgrade or demean your work. It's great and I have loved playing with and reading this creator so far.

Tesunie wrote:(Warning, long post ahead!!)

Thank you for such an amazingly helpful and constructive post, Tesunie!

As for most of the concerns they've already been addressed in the final version. There have been a lot of points tweaks and balance tweaks made other than simply making everything look prettier (one of the reasons why it's taking me so long to produce the final version). For example, using the Chapter Creator rules, in order to get an identical Dreadnought to the one in Codex Space Marines now brings the cost up to 105 points, identical to that of the one found in the Codex.

I'm hoping to have the finalized rules finished by the end of the month, however having 2-3 other jobs means less free time but I'm pushing ever forward to get you guys the best and easier to use version as soon as I can.

I'm using a much better program in order to create the finalized document, so expect a proper looking Rules Document instead of simply something from Open Office.

I've also come across a few other point problems, as I've since moved on to troops as well. One base problem I'm seeing is weapon points. Your base seems correct for points, but your formula for adding weapons to troops seem to be a little off.

Now, this section I found a little confusing myself, but here is how I understand it.

Marine: 16 points per. x4 64
Sargent: 26 pts. 90 pts total. Matches up with my DA codex fine so far.
Melta-gun: 10 pts/3 = 3~4 pts. Round to 5? Codex says 10pts.(suggest divide by 2, not three. Makes it even 5 points.)
x5 marines: 16 pts per: 80. Five points over. Equals with melta-gun's cheaper cost, especially if divided by 2 instead of 3.
Plasma Cannon: 30 pts/3 = 10 points. Five points too cheap. I'd rather see a penalty for creating a new unit. Not costing less. However, divide by 2 and you get 15. This meets with my DA codex number.

Suggestion: Reduce the number to being divided by 2, not three when determining wargear. And hope people place practical restrictions like all the other codexes on amount of wargear options per squad.

Also, I note a lack of Terminator armor, Artificer armor and other armor choice upgrades, particularly for HQs. I suggest it replaces all that character's wargear with a powersword, storm bolter and terminator armor at 25-40 pts. I think 30 points would be a solid middle ground.

Also, noticed Iron Halos seem to be missing.

I shall now simply wait for your response and I hope these suggestions help you out. (Or if I'm doing this wrong, correct me.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, shall await your finalized rules.

And if you wish, I have Adobe Illustrator and Indesign. Don't know if you want any help, but I could make it look almost codex like if I had a few pictures to toss in. (And I also have a graphic design degree to boot!)

Do you want me to continue to post suggestions and point differences I find? If you think you've caught them all in the final version I haven't seen yet, then I'll stop. (Trying not to be a pest... ya know?)

Tesunie wrote:Okay, shall await your finalized rules.

And if you wish, I have Adobe Illustrator and Indesign. Don't know if you want any help, but I could make it look almost codex like if I had a few pictures to toss in. (And I also have a graphic design degree to boot!)

Do you want me to continue to post suggestions and point differences I find? If you think you've caught them all in the final version I haven't seen yet, then I'll stop. (Trying not to be a pest... ya know?)

Most of the points costs have been fixed already for every unit. The mistake I made with the Alpha version is trying to bunch all of the wargear and points costs into one section in a very crude manner. In the new one, not including Custom Wargear, all weapons have points costs listed for each individual custom unit instead of having a generic section.

Everything is going to be make much easier with the new version.

Can't wait to see it then.

Good luck on designing the final version! And don't forget to ask if you might need any help (or second opinions)!

You need a few others like.
Desert Warriors- Have longer lasting stamina compared to other astrates, fleet special rule.
Broken Warriors- The Chapter has suffered causalities. - what ever you want to minus. Give them careful planning

Untrusted- Members of this chapter have had a few members gone stray, some may carry daemon weapons.

Chaos Renegades- Members are known to be renegades, may use 1-2 units from chaos space marines codex. (Daemon Weapons, daemonic items.) Imperial and Inquistion units gain perfered enemy against them.

Mutated- Some members show a unquie mutation such as an invisible eye, an extra arm, bone weapons, giants even among other marines, Genuises , according to which mutation you choose. (You may only choose one for the chapter. Only one marine per a squad may have a mutation.)
Invisible eye- increase range of weapons by 2"
Extreme Strength- +1 strength
Bone Weapons- +1 Attack (must be modelled)
Giants among Angels- +1 wound
Increased Intelligence- +1 to Reserves

'Renegades- Chapter has turned renegade, though refuse to use chaos powers. They have less access to newer weaponry and chapter is hunted, all imperial units gain preferred enemy against them.

those good suggestions or no?

Tesunie wrote:Can't wait to see it then.

Good luck on designing the final version! And don't forget to ask if you might need any help (or second opinions)!

Final Version will definitely need to be gone over and balanced a bit more. I've tried to balance it as much as posisble but I'm just one man, so I've probably missed a few things.

Asherian Command wrote:You need a few others like.
Desert Warriors- Have longer lasting stamina compared to other astrates, fleet special rule.

Fleet is one of the options available in the Final version for Combat Practices.

Asherian Command wrote:Broken Warriors- The Chapter has suffered causalities. - what ever you want to minus. Give them careful planning

Trying to avoid detriments at this point in time as they were easily abused for the last official Space Marine Chapter Traits rules. Basically I'm leaving it up to the player to decide which units are not included. I am thinking of including an Optional Rules section that stores or clubs can use to balance things out a bit more though.

Asherian Command wrote:Untrusted- Members of this chapter have had a few members gone stray, some may carry daemon weapons.

One step ahead of ya. Already in there as Mutations, though the Daemon Weapon rules use the Grey Knight variation.

Asherian Command wrote:Chaos Renegades- Members are known to be renegades, may use 1-2 units from chaos space marines codex. (Daemon Weapons, daemonic items.) Imperial and Inquistion units gain perfered enemy against them.

I've been thinking of making a section called Wayward Sons, which covers chapters which fled instead of being Excommunicated, Pirates, Renegades of various factions, and others, however I'm not satisfied with anything I've come up with yet in that area to balance things out. Suggestions welcome as to how these could be pulled off in a fair manner (removal of Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, no Grey Knight or Sisters of Battle allies, all other Space Marine chapters gain Preferred Enemy against the chapter, etc).

Asherian Command wrote:Mutated- Some members show a unquie mutation such as an invisible eye, an extra arm, bone weapons, giants even among other marines, Genuises , according to which mutation you choose. (You may only choose one for the chapter. Only one marine per a squad may have a mutation.)
Invisible eye- increase range of weapons by 2"
Extreme Strength- +1 strength
Bone Weapons- +1 Attack (must be modelled)
Giants among Angels- +1 wound
Increased Intelligence- +1 to Reserves

Mutations are already covered. I want to avoid certain mustaions (+1 Wound, for example) as they would simply be much too hard to balance in a fair manner so the chapter doesn't just steamroll everything.

Asherian Command wrote:'Renegades- Chapter has turned renegade, though refuse to use chaos powers. They have less access to newer weaponry and chapter is hunted, all imperial units gain preferred enemy against them.

May be useful for something else, but right now detriments aren't part of the grand scheme of how the Chapter Creator works. Again, may introduce an Optional Rules section for stores and clubs.

K thanks. You might also want to put in a Crusade Chapter thing where they can take Crusade Squads. Or they can take up to 20 Tactical marines for one squad but have to give up a few things.

Just wanted to say I am loving your work right now and thank you so much for providing this pdf. I've been looking for a fair way to do something like this for a while. Right now I'm trying to make a chapter that focuses on its faith to the emperor. I want them to be similar to the Grey Knights just not ACTUALLY Grey Knights. I'll likely post something when I've finished... which could be days from now.

Couple of thoughts on weapon creation:
What about things like Chain Axes, which allow, at best, a 4+ armor save, essentially making things like Terminators have to roll 4+ instead of their 2+?
What about the Vampire special rule that can potentially happen on a GK daemonblade? Something to consider as a weapon option or special rule.
Bonuses to initiative such as the GK halberd. Perhaps an option that give +1 and another that give +2?

Just some thoughts for even MORE options