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obsidianaura wrote:Maybe the terminator franchise was threatening to sue or GW were scared that they might?

In that case the skeletal robot aesthetic would need to be abandoned as well, in which case you have a thoroughly different faction bearing the name of an old one.

Why did they have to gut the C'tan?

The best story I've read was where the Callidus Assasin tries to assasinate an Imperial Governor and it turns out to be a C'tan in disguise! He plays with his toys! To basically toy with the lesser races in such a laid-back, almost entertaining manner is the most badass thing on this side of the Warp any creature could possibly do.

Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.


Now C'tan are somehow weaker than the Necrons, who couldn't keep their own Empire from falling apart, who couldn't beat the Old Ones, who are apparently afraid of the Eldar (instead of the other way around). Who destroys Gods of that calliber?

I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck.

Remember that the Void Dragon was near starving and it still kicked the Emperor's two ton keister, and even then the emperor couldn't kill it.

Simply repainting it as a 'Shard' just takes all the venom out of what could have been a serious threat to the Imperium.

StormForged wrote:Why did they have to gut the C'tan?

Because it's a new direction to the fluff that some people like, and some don't.

The best story I've read was where the Callidus Assasin tries to assasinate an Imperial Governor and it turns out to be a C'tan in disguise! He plays with his toys! To basically toy with the lesser races in such a laid-back, almost entertaining manner is the most badass thing on this side of the Warp any creature could possibly do.

Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.

The Horus Heresy. It eclipses anything any single C'tan has done in the fluff we have.

Now C'tan are somehow weaker than the Necrons, who couldn't keep their own Empire from falling apart, who couldn't beat the Old Ones, who are apparently afraid of the Eldar (instead of the other way around). Who destroys Gods of that calliber?

You're not giving the full story, at all. The C'tan were gods the Necrons sought help from in their war with the Old Ones, a war they were losing. They gave the the Necrons the technology they needed to beat the Old Ones, and with the C'tan's aid, they did. They discovered they were being enslaved, so the Necrons made war upon their masters. They won, but were crippled as a result. That's right. The war against the C'tan nearly destroyed them, they couldn't fight the Eldar because of it. Of course your also neglecting to remember that the Necrons fear what could happen of the C'tan were returned to their complete forms and do all they can to imprison shards in pocket dimensions.

I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck.

Remember that the Void Dragon was near starving and it still kicked the Emperor's two ton keister, and even then the emperor couldn't kill it.

What the feth are you talking about? It's the Emperor, not some tiny human, the Emperor. Oh, and you just essentially contradicted yourself in two sentences.

Simply repainting it as a 'Shard' just takes all the venom out of what could have been a serious threat to the Imperium.

No, it doesn't, it increases the 'venom'. If all the escapades of the C'tan were achieved by a mere shard of the real thing, I wouldn't dare speculate what a full-powered one could do.

I wouldnt say they gutted the C'tan, rather gave them the awe that they deserve. If a shard is as powerful as described in the last few codices then the full blown thing would be an awesome force indeed. And I have to agree with iproxtaco the chaos gods have done some pretty nasty stuff in their time. I would say that C'tan and chaos god powers are almost on the same level as the chaos gods cannot manifest themselves in the flesh as C'tan can (as far as I know) so the C'tan has more to work with. I hope that makes sense. I dont think the new fluff makes them any less powerful. Remember that it was AFTER the C'tan had given the Necrons they needed to destroy the old ones that they turned on their masters, not before. There is a HUGE difference. You have to look at the full picture.

Besides we dont know that any of this is set in stone until the 5th so we are just going to have to wait and see.

Well, Kinda makes me hope that there'll be a C'tan Apoc Unit, Like a stronger shard that is harder to restrain that the Necrons only pull on when they really feel they need it out of fear that it'll get loose and be able to attempt to get back it's full strength via searching for it's other shards/eating suns/sentient life forces etc.

Harriticus wrote:The Charnovokh Dynasty is mentioned as eaten mostly by Tyranids. This has pushed them into restoring ancient dolmen gates that connect their realms to the wider galaxy. This does put an end to the old speculation about Tyranids avoiding Necrons/Tomb Worlds in general.

The Nekthyst Dynasty are noted as traitors, turncoats and oathbreakers. The "taint of dishonour" still hangs heavy over them, and they mostly operate as mercenaries. Mercenary contracts are the only promise they never seem to break. What this also tells us (along with the teaser-trailer) is that Necrons apparently value treaties, pacts and honor quite a bit, to make such a big deal out of the Nekthyst Dynasty breaking them. In D&D terms, Necrons in general are definitely on the Lawful side of the alignment scale.

Thanatos and the Celestial Orrery. The Celestial Orrery is said to be one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It has a small light for every star in the galaxy. Snuff out the light, and the star will soon follow.

Where can I read the new necron fluff? :(

You dont have to lack values to be evil. I preffer the lawful evil approach, for me it really fits the way I have always thought of them to be before turning into mindless machines. If you want trechery and lies try chaos or dark eldar... its kinda their thing.. I love the new fluff (really obvious by now) and I think it will really make the necrons more attractive and it will give them the respect that their race deserves. +1

Thatguy91 wrote:New C'tan vs Old C'tan. - I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck. These creatures are as old as the galaxy itself, they have been worshiped like gods, they turned the tide on a war against what was possibly the strongest race that the galaxy has ever seen with a flick of their wrists, they fed on the very stars themselves! I mean come on! If these guys truely were to take to the battlefield they would just destroy everything, its as simple as that, and since that isnt a viable option in a gaming sense, dont use them! It just... It just doesnt work for me. At all. Therefore i like the new C'tan. They are now mere shadows, nay slithers of their former selves and they have lost their true power but they are still powerful enough to challenge any mortal being in combat, not to mention the funky special rules they bring to the table. This works for me.

Tiny human? The only human in the fluff to of defeated a C'tan was the God Emperor himself, and the Void Dragon was still regaining power, starved and weakened. And... I really hope you aren't referring to the Emperor as a "tiny human," considering his power is arguable greater Or are you referring to Uriel Ventris? Admittedly Uriel Ventris making the Nightbringer forget that it could easily become incorporeal and escape the Tomb was stupid, but he did not defeat it. Or are you referring to the fact that they can be beaten by the Imperial Guard in the TT?

Well gee, I bet I can think of a good solution for this!

Take the full-powered C'tan off the TT. Wow, that was hard to come up with.

If GW still wanted to have the C'tan on the TT in a lesser sense, then it's not like they have to look for ideas on how to go about this. Dawn of War managed this without neutering the C'tan. One could easily have constructs imbued with the essence of a C'tan without making them jokes in the fluff, it is canon in the old fluff of the Nightbringer that it was capable of doing such things.

Unity - No race is truely unified. Thats just the way it goes. Except for maybe the Tyranids... And they dont really have a choice now do they.. With sentience comes a choice and with choices comes individualism and that will ultimately lead a race away from unity. They can all work for the same goal but they do not all want the same thing, its just how life works. You can have unity through simplification, like the old Necrons, but that removes the higher level of sentience... which removes individualism... which tend to make things boring after a while as everything will stay stagnant.

Yeah see, the part I bolded? That's the flaw in your reasoning. The Necrons were no longer truly alive, they are the unliving, the undead. They aren't meant to be so readily equateable with us, humanity. This is why the Necrons are no longer Necrons. They are no longer convincingly alien. They're just humans in robot suits. And no, incorrect. The upper echelons of the Necrons could easily be distinguishable from others of their kind while still being united in purpose, if not united entirely. And once more, having Necrons foit eachother can easily be explained by different C'tan overlords.

Tomb kings... IN SPAAAAAAACE - Yeah just stop it lolz. I mean for real. If you took two minutes to sit down and read about the ancient cultures and civilizations, most of them worked this way. EI city states/kingdoms, Godlike leader figures/kings, polytheism, similar architectural designs (pyramid-like), jewelry was colorful and very extravagant, almost all of them use a system of glyphs and they are all very "Mysterious". Its how the world works. Simple.

I don't recall mentioning the Tomb Kings. Granted I am not entirely sure if your post was meant towards me.


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Thatguy91 wrote:You dont have to lack values to be evil. I preffer the lawful evil approach, for me it really fits the way I have always thought of them to be before turning into mindless machines. If you want trechery and lies try chaos or dark eldar... its kinda their thing.. I love the new fluff (really obvious by now) and I think it will really make the necrons more attractive and it will give them the respect that their race deserves. +1

They were lawful evil in the old fluff.

Frankly they were more lawful evil before, they were ultimate law, ultimate order.


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iproxtaco wrote:The Horus Heresy. It eclipses anything any single C'tan has done in the fluff we have.

The War in Heaven is the single biggest war ever in the setting.

Notably, it created Chaos.

Yeah what I ment was that on TT with a few lucky rolls a random foot soldier could technically dispatch a C'tan. And im not okay with that. That should NEVER happen. As for the fluff, sure, the Emperor might manage such a feat with said C'tan being starved etc. I can take that, the Emperor is an exception obviously. So they are removing full powered C'tan from the TT, which is a good thing AND removing some of them from the fluff and changing them into shards blah blah we know the deal by now but you still have C'tan that roam the galaxy and are free. Again you get both worlds.

I see your point but the ESSENCE, the soul if you will is still part of their mechanical body. Just because they are made out of metal doesnt mean that they cant be alive. They all have sentience to some degree and that is usually what constitutes to something being "Alive" as we know it. Well its one of the things anyway. That means, for me atleast, that Necrons are living beings, therefore the chance that their race is able to unify itself 100% towards a common goal is minute, unless it threatens their very exsistance.

Yeah.. That wasnt aimed at you that was just me hating on everyone positing "TOUMBKINGZINSPESSLAWL".

Thatguy91 wrote:Yeah what I ment was that on TT with a few lucky rolls a random foot soldier could technically dispatch a C'tan. And im not okay with that. That should NEVER happen. As for the fluff, sure, the Emperor might manage such a feat with said C'tan being starved etc. I can take that, the Emperor is an exception obviously. So they are removing full powered C'tan from the TT, which is a good thing AND removing some of them from the fluff and changing them into shards blah blah we know the deal by now but you still have C'tan that roam the galaxy and are free. Again you get both worlds.

Both worlds? No. The C'tan are now the new Khaine of the setting. In that now they will just be big fodder creature that happens to be a piece of a god that exists to be punched in half by Marneus Calgar. Why is removing some of the C'tan from the fluff a good thing? I fail to really see your logic behind how one gets both worlds from this, or even grasp your basic meaning. It does one good thing, taking the actual C'tan off the battlefield. Though they were not at full power, being mostly starved, especially the Nightbringer, who left Pavonis to go feed on stars, being incredible weak and starved due to the Deceiver being a troll.

And really, the change with the C'tan, if Mechanicum is still considered viable, really shoves a size 16 boot up the background of the 40k.

It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.

Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?

Lol. Yeah because the Necrons, who could not beat the Old Ones without the help of the C'tan, being capable of exterminating the C'tan to a man effectively makes a lot of sense.

I see your point but the ESSENCE, the soul if you will is still part of their mechanical body. Just because they are made out of metal doesnt mean that they cant be alive. They all have sentience to some degree and that is usually what constitutes to something being "Alive" as we know it. Well its one of the things anyway. That means, for me atleast, that Necrons are living beings, therefore the chance that their race is able to unify itself 100% towards a common goal is minute, unless it threatens their very exsistance.

You're applying human rationale to them again. Their unified motive was largely what made them so alien, that an entire race could be driven by such a primal hatred to the extent that they would sell their souls and damn themselves forever to accomplish this goal made them terrifying, and incomprehensible. Now, apparently they warred with the Old Ones because they couldn't get along with eachother, so big daddy Silent King came up with a way to make them play nice. And once more, they were united entirely and wholly in purpose, but infighting could still be possible between them.

Yeah.. That wasnt aimed at you that was just me hating on everyone positing "TOUMBKINGZINSPESSLAWL".

I can't really comment on similarities with the Tomb Kings, since I've never played or read anything concerning Fantasy.

Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...

Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.

(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )

xlEternitylx wrote:Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...

Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.

(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )

Why do people assume that the Necron Lords didn't do this kind of gak already?

Why do people make assumptions on Necron fluff when they really don't know what they think they do?

I mean, sure, I guess it's not like Necron Lords have infiltrated the Inquisition, masquerading as Inquisitors, with a fleshy face and all... Oh wait they have done that.

Why? Simply because I hadn't heard of it.

[troll]Did they ever use hugs whilst doing "this kind of gak"?[/troll]

But really, never heard about it.

Void__Dragon wrote:

xlEternitylx wrote:Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...

Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.

(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )

Why do people assume that the Necron Lords didn't do this kind of gak already?

Why do people make assumptions on Necron fluff when they really don't know what they think they do?

I mean, sure, I guess it's not like Necron Lords have infiltrated the Inquisition, masquerading as Inquisitors, with a fleshy face and all... Oh wait they have done that.

Haha! I remember that story vaguely. Ah, the good old evil days...

xlEternitylx wrote:Why? Simply because I hadn't heard of it.

[troll]Did they ever use hugs whilst doing "this kind of gak"?[/troll]

But really, never heard about it.

Fair enough, can't fault you for not reading some random story in Xenology.

I just get tired of some of the assumptions about Necron fluff, honestly.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Lol. Yeah because the Necrons, who could not beat the Old Ones without the help of the C'tan, being capable of exterminating the C'tan to a man effectively makes a lot of sense.

It can do. You're talking about to completely different types of enemy here. The Old Ones used Psychic powers, the C'tan couldn't and had to use the Materium. I'd imagine such powerful Psykers would have been incredibly difficult for the Necrons to have defeated, whereas having served alongside the C'tan, may have discovered some of their weaknesses during battle. Not to mention the boost in power the Necrons received from the C'tan.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The Horus Heresy. It eclipses anything any single C'tan has done in the fluff we have.

The War in Heaven is the single biggest war ever in the setting.

Notably, it created Chaos.

And was that a single C'tan? No, it wasn't. It was more than four C'tan.

If they want the C'tan on the TT they should just do a C'tan "avatar" of sorts, that's how I always saw them as anyway...like an avatar of Khaine....

I think there's a misunderstanding with why we (I say we, what I'm about to say may not fit your personal reasons for not liking it)don't like what we're hearing of the fluff is not because the Necrons are humanised, but rather they're being humanised the wrong way.

What I mean by that is that instead of focusing on the bitterness of being trapped in machines to never feel again and to serve almost unstoppable beings, they're instead humanised with strange concepts like honour and valor.

Instead of focusing on that bitterness driving Necrons to purge the stars, the team focused on concepts that don't seem to fit possible motives which would drive them to act the way they do. it doesn't fit their theme and previous ideals

So I'd say just perhaps consider that before you dismiss the dislike of the new background as just not wanting change to happen.

From what i gather some C'tan, including the Void Dragon is still at full strenght as he was never found by the Necrons. I think this whole change allows for deeper background stories behind both the Necrons and the C'tan.

Most people havnt read Xeneology, that book is more elusive than the higgs boson.

Dont get me wrong, I understand that the change is controversial and taht some people wont like it. I dont like some parts of it, for example the trading part. What could a race like the Necrons POSSIBLY want/need that the other races have. They are in the stone age compared to them. Not to mention, if they wanted it im sure they would just fly their ships over there and take them by force. That part doesnt make sense to me. To me the Necrons are a race who think they are better than everyone else (because they are!) and want to be on top again. They have values now, values that fit quite well into their role in the universe. Im not sure where im going with this because im dead tired and I think im just rambling on about goo gaa atm but I hope you get my point.

The way I've always understood the necrons is that they are still a mystery to everyone, and this codex just brings out the next wave of discoveries, if that makes sense. ANyway off to sleep i go!

Originally there were 100 C'tan. After the Necrons beat the Old Ones, drove off the Eldar and the Orks. The Deciever (the Eldar Laughing God) drove the first of the C'tan (the Outsider) to feed on another of its kind. And thats what started the civil war between the C'tan until only 4 were left.

The Nightbringer, The Deciever, The Void Dragon and the Outsider. Nightbringer slept the longest and when he fought on that world he had just woke up and barely holding the necrodermis together.

The Void Dragon woke up first and was on ancient Terra. It was the Emperor that battled it and then inprisoned it in the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars so that the priesthood would eventually find it and plundering its mind to advance the technology of man for his eventual Great Crusade. And it still slumbers inside mars. There is a very short story in one of the BFG books where a trio of Necron ships smash through the Sol System defenses, devastate the Martian orbital defenses and then lands on Mars. Shortly after that they vanish.

The Deciever wakes up next and begins its plots. It throws the Talismans of Vaul (the blackstone fortresses) into the Warp, because it was the only weapon capable of killing a fully awake C'tan. Warp energy is their antithesis. It sets into motion other events that will lead to their emergence. Psychic blanks, devoid of any warp presence, souless and capable of becoming Pariahs. Its plots and mechanations span millions of years.

And least known of all is the Outsider who still slumbers on an unknown Tomb World.

All of that Chthonic horror is gone.

Not necessarily. There's still a lot more stuff in the book, and whilst I trust what yakface has relayed to us from his sources, I know for a fact there are still some things left unexplained until the full codex is out.

You know, I think some people make it worse for themselves. The Silent King feels guilt over what happened to his people, so hes an emo wuss that went to brood outside the galaxy.
The Necrons sometimes make alliances and trade with lesser races, so they're now FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE! and more likely to help the Imperoum than fight it.
The Necrons are better than the C'tan!
Some Lords have sentience and plans, now they're humans in robot bodies!
The Necrons are scared of the Eldar!

All of this is taken from the broad info we've been given by yakface and co. and vast majority of it are stupid generalizations or selected to make the Necrons look worse in the eyes of those who preferred the old book.

iproxtaco wrote:The Silent King feels guilt over what happened to his people, so hes an emo wuss that went to brood outside the galaxy.

Yep, exactly. If you don't think that the Silent King proposing the War in Heaven a a team-building exercise and then feeling all supar guilty and sad about what happened isn't a complete 180 in the fluff, you're wrong.

The Necrons sometimes make alliances and trade with lesser races, so they're now FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE! and more likely to help the Imperoum than fight it.

Making alliances I could kinda deal with, as in, sure they will fight against a threat like Chaos rather than the Imperium, but trading? What the hell could they possibly need from the other races? They don't need food, and their technology is the best in the galaxy.

And no one said that.

The Necrons are better than the C'tan!

Considering they broke the C'tan into tiny tiny pieces and now enslave the pieces as war engines, yes, the Necrons are stronger than the C'tan as a race.

Lovecraft wouldn't be considered a very good cosmic horror writer if his cosmic horrors were being broken into little pieces and used as war engines.

Some Lords have sentience and plans, now they're humans in robot bodies!

No it's the fact that now they display very human characteristics and lost what originally made them so alien and inhuman. They have always had sentience, they have always been capable of other methods, "plans" for how they go about the harvesting business. Should that of been emphasized better? Yes, I'll admit that.

The Necrons are scared of the Eldar!

This part is probably an exagerration, I'll give you.

All of this is taken from the broad info we've been given by yakface and co. and vast majority of it are stupid generalizations or selected to make the Necrons look worse in the eyes of those who preferred the old book.

Most of my posts typically have me saying "If all of the rumors are true or not taken out of context," or something to that effect.

But if the rumors are true? Sorry Ward, your complete retcon of the Necrons is not for me.


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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It can do. You're talking about to completely different types of enemy here. The Old Ones used Psychic powers, the C'tan couldn't and had to use the Materium. I'd imagine such powerful Psykers would have been incredibly difficult for the Necrons to have defeated, whereas having served alongside the C'tan, may have discovered some of their weaknesses during battle. Not to mention the boost in power the Necrons received from the C'tan.

The C'tan are capable of feats greater than even the most powerful of psykers. Even the Emperor. Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan.

For that matter, the C'tan come off as incredibly stupid for getting themselves sealed. They originally didn't have a linear perspective of time. Now they are shattered remnants and slaves. Not as planned indeed.


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Thatguy91 wrote:From what i gather some C'tan, including the Void Dragon is still at full strenght as he was never found by the Necrons. I think this whole change allows for deeper background stories behind both the Necrons and the C'tan.

Yeah man deeper background stories of what your own little Necron Overlord does for gaks and giggles with his own pet C'tan.

What greater depth can there be concerning the C'tan? They're just pieces of a single being, slaves to their former minions.

Sure, I don't doubt the codex will make it easier for the Necron Lords to have background written about them, but what you don't seem to understand is that the Necrons didn't have to take a complete 180 for that to happen.

Most people havnt read Xeneology, that book is more elusive than the higgs boson.

It's not hard to find online at all. But that's just one of the more noteworthy cases. Actually, another Necron speaks (And was doin' some of that thar infiltratin') in the Necron codex as well, IIRC.

Dont get me wrong, I understand that the change is controversial and taht some people wont like it. I dont like some parts of it, for example the trading part. What could a race like the Necrons POSSIBLY want/need that the other races have. They are in the stone age compared to them. Not to mention, if they wanted it im sure they would just fly their ships over there and take them by force. That part doesnt make sense to me. To me the Necrons are a race who think they are better than everyone else (because they are!) and want to be on top again. They have values now, values that fit quite well into their role in the universe. Im not sure where im going with this because im dead tired and I think im just rambling on about goo gaa atm but I hope you get my point.

Well dude, that's the thing, just taking what they need? Aw man, that'd be way too dishonorable.

I don't really get your point, honestly. They have values? You mean they're humanised.

The way I've always understood the necrons is that they are still a mystery to everyone, and this codex just brings out the next wave of discoveries, if that makes sense. ANyway off to sleep i go!

Or you could think of it for what it is: A retcon of the race's entire background.

I for one probably wont use a C'tan in my army, just because I've never thought that they are represented properly on TT. And i really hope that they "rediscover" some other C'tan that survived the Outsiders nom noming phase. I think the main reason I like this change is because im a sucker for fluff, because there are a few changes that I dont like, at all. For example the removal of we'll be back. It SHOULD be OP, thats waht necrons do. Ohhh you shot me, OWAIT i can repair myself, get back up and annihilate you. Phase out, meh, you know what since they re-did We'll be back it fits. But Necrons SHOULD have that ability to just stand up again and completely destroy everything and everyone. I think the nerfing of this has nerfed the "Scaryness" of the army aswell.

Void__Dragon wrote:
The C'tan are capable of feats greater than even the most powerful of psykers. Even the Emperor. Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan.

Other than the fact that we haven't necessarily seen the Emperor use His power to its utmost other than to destroy Horus, I'm not sure how much of the story alters (was it a particularly powerful shard? Was every single C'tan shattered? What happened between the Blackstone Fortresses and the Void Dragon? Did it get hit, flee, and then get shattered, or was it shattered and then hit, or even just get hit and flee, without being shattered at all?)

And regardless, the types of power are still completely different, especially since the Necrons became more powerful following their pact with the C'tan.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if this Lexicanum quote is true?

Lexicanum wrote:In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons.

Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?

For that matter, the C'tan come off as incredibly stupid for getting themselves sealed. They originally didn't have a linear perspective of time. Now they are shattered remnants and slaves. Not as planned indeed.

They always did to me. Assuming the Enslavers posed them no threat (which if I recall correctly assumes that the Deceiver or a Necron Lord (which was it in 'Deus Ex Mechanicus'?) was telling the truth about it just being that their food was dying (or is a more detailed explanation given in the Codex?)) then they could have destroyed the few remaining threats to them with ease but chose not to.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?

The C'tan own reality. The Emperor is in reality. Ergo, the C'tan own the Emperor.

StormForged wrote:Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.

This right here is probably why they reduced the C'tans place in the current fluff. Chaos is meant to be the big bad. yet in recent fluff, they've been reduced to comical super villains. They want Chaos front and center again. The C'tan being so powerful kind of took away from the power of the Chaos gods. With the rumours floating around about 6th editions fluff direction, we can probably expect other races to be pushed back a little in the fluff as they emphasize the danger of Chaos.

I find that 40k fluff is full of deliberate mistakes made on behalf of the stronger forces in the galaxy... Stupidity is just another way to make the fluff seem balanced so to speak. I do not approve. -1

Void__Dragon wrote:It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.

Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?

The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.