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-Loki- wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.

Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?

The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.

^ this. Its was a huge mistake on behalf of GW. Its like fielding the Chaos gods, its stupid and it was never going to work.

-Loki- wrote:The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.

I'm speaking in terms of the "new" fluff. The shards of the C'tan are apparently pretty strong 200 point Monstrous Creatures.

Emperor is now<200 point Monstrous Creature.

I'm also not sure why you're lecturing me about something I have said multiple times in this thread: That the true C'tan should of never been fieldable.

Only GW neutering them and making them look like losers wasn't necessary to accomplish this. Since you know, a certain pretty popular videogame series made weaker avatars of the C'tan playable without neutering the entities on a whole.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?

Because it's only a SHARD of the Void Dragon, if the Emperor had to put that much effort into putting the SHARD back to a sleep of some sorts, imagine if he stumbled across the Void Dragon if it were complete. Yeah, he'd get his ass handed to him on a silver platter, next course, the human race.

-Loki- wrote:This right here is probably why they reduced the C'tans place in the current fluff. Chaos is meant to be the big bad. yet in recent fluff, they've been reduced to comical super villains. They want Chaos front and center again. The C'tan being so powerful kind of took away from the power of the Chaos gods. With the rumours floating around about 6th editions fluff direction, we can probably expect other races to be pushed back a little in the fluff as they emphasize the danger of Chaos.

Oh please, that's a butthurt excuse supported only by inaccurate views of the fluff.

If GW was so concerned about Chaos being a respectable Big Bad, they wouldn't of released the Grey Knights codex, which makes Chaos look like more of a joke than they've ever been.

The C'tan, even in the old codex, were all either:

a. Sealed.

Or

b. Starved and not at full power.

The C'tan weren't as immediate a threat as Chaos was, never. Could the Necrons and C'tan become the most horrible, and greatest threat in time? Maybe, but that helped give them a sense of dread. And frankly, they aren't even the only faction that conveyed a sense of dread, in that eventually, one of them would win. Chaos, the Tyranids, and the Necrons conveyed this.

Again, I haven't heard about the Big Four at all in the rumors. They may very well still be whole or mostly whole or sealed and just like they were.

Maybe the C'tan referred to are the ones that weren't eaten by the Outsider or the Nightbringer. They were instead imprisoned by the Necrons.

I have to read the whole codex to understand the C'tan predicament, personally. If the Big Four no longer exist, then, well, that sucks and the Emp isn't weakened. If they're shards, I expect the time line must be worked out somehow differently...I don't know what to think till the 'dex hits the market.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Other than the fact that we haven't necessarily seen the Emperor use His power to its utmost other than to destroy Horus, I'm not sure how much of the story alters (was it a particularly powerful shard? Was every single C'tan shattered? What happened between the Blackstone Fortresses and the Void Dragon? Did it get hit, flee, and then get shattered, or was it shattered and then hit, or even just get hit and flee, without being shattered at all?)

Why would the Emperor hold back against the Void Dragon? The Void Dragon wasn't his misguided son, it was a cosmic horror trying to kill him and threatening the human race.

And like I said, context or whatever may be different when the codex comes out, to stifle my butthurt.

But in the old fluff, the Dragon most definitely survived the fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.

And regardless, the types of power are still completely different, especially since the Necrons became more powerful following their pact with the C'tan.

Not really. There isn't much that a psyker can do, even the strongest of them, that a C'tan can't.

And if the C'tan made the Necrons more powerful than they were while betraying them: They're idiots.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if this Lexicanum quote is true?

Lexicanum wrote:In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons.

Theoretically, sure. In fact, Magnus the Red has demonstrated it is very much possible to destroy a Titan. Not that it matters. The C'tan in the Necron codex can annihilate solar systems on a whim.

Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?

Because that was not merely a shard of the Dragon, but one that was, if Mechanicum hasn't been retconned (Holy gak, retconning one of the Horus Heresy books? Wowo), a STARVED shard. One that was a weakened fragment of the real thing.

They always did to me. Assuming the Enslavers posed them no threat (which if I recall correctly assumes that the Deceiver or a Necron Lord (which was it in 'Deus Ex Mechanicus'?) was telling the truth about it just being that their food was dying (or is a more detailed explanation given in the Codex?)) then they could have destroyed the few remaining threats to them with ease but chose not to.

I am pretty sure that the guy who states that the Enslavers posed no threat was a Necron Lord, would have to check.

And the reason they didn't is partly because the Deceiver made use of them to gimp the Nightbringer, and the Void Dragon was already napping due to being hit by a fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.

I say bring on the full scale C'tan, but keep them the feth off our TT. Keep them in the fluff where they belong, give us shards of the previously unknown C'tan, any survivors of the Outsiders noming. I just want more of them in general tbh.

Thatguy91 wrote:I say bring on the full scale C'tan, but keep them the feth off our TT. Keep them in the fluff where they belong, give us shards of the previously unknown C'tan, any survivors of the Outsiders noming. I just want more of them in general tbh.

I'd actually be fine with this, and agree that the true C'tan should stay the hell away from the TT.

The big four are who I am mainly concerned with.

I think the shards being the remnants of lots of nomming would be pretty kewl.

To appease people who already have Nightbringer and Deceiver models, fluff could say that sometimes the remaining C'tan would mockingly have the shards of former enemy C'tan modeled in their own image. For lulz.

Or something.

Yeah, that would kinda fit well with it aswell. The ego boost, humiliation etc. I think that could really work. Im hoping that the big four stay out of the whole shard thing, it just.. I mean they are already part of so much random fluff it wouldnt make sense to change them so much.

You could have powered down the C'tan simply by stating they're starving and weakened from their long hibernation and are in need of an enormous amount of souls. They are unable to stay in a physical form able to do battle for very long because of this. You don't have to have them essentially destroyed and enslaved.

Harriticus wrote:This was posted on Warseer, supposedly deals with the scattered Necron domains now (called Dynasties):

The White Dwarf gives us quite a bit of info:

Dynasties seem to be our 'cabals', 'chapters' or what have you. They have a color scheme and a short background. They "rule" parts of the galaxy and consist of multiple Tomb Worlds. An Overlord can apparently rule multiple worlds (as seen in the breakdown of the Sautekh Dynasty, which has Overlords with titles such as "Regent of the Sautekh homeworlds", "Regent of the Sautekh Fringeworlds", but also "Regent of Gheisten".

Some Dynasties are ruled by others...once again, two Dynasties are given (Sekemtar and Arrynmarok) that are ruled by Imotekh from the Sautekh Dynasty.

The Sautekh Dynasty, while currently the most powerful Dynasty, was only the third most powerful Dynasty before the biotransference. Currently ruled by Imotekh, who indeed seems to be 40k's version of Settra.

The Charnovokh Dynasty is mentioned as eaten mostly by Tyranids. This has pushed them into restoring ancient dolmen gates that connect their realms to the wider galaxy. This does put an end to the old speculation about Tyranids avoiding Necrons/Tomb Worlds in general.

The Nihilakh Dynasty gives us a Dynasty that just keeps to themselves and has no intention of conquering the galaxy. They are very defensive of their territory though. Kinda like Wood Elves

The Nekthyst Dynasty are noted as traitors, turncoats and oathbreakers. The "taint of dishonour" still hangs heavy over them, and they mostly operate as mercenaries. Mercenary contracts are the only promise they never seem to break. What this also tells us (along with the teaser-trailer) is that Necrons apparently value treaties, pacts and honor quite a bit, to make such a big deal out of the Nekthyst Dynasty breaking them. In D&D terms, Necrons in general are definitely on the Lawful side of the alignment scale.

The common cause for all Necrons is given as "rebuilding the Necron dynasties and the return of the Necrons to their rightful supremacy." They feel they should be in charge. Once again, pretty Lawful (Evil?) guys.

The Bone Kingdom of Drazak is the Flayed One kingdom located in the north-eastern Ghoul Stars, led by a Flayed One King. They're the "fresh meat" zombies/ghouls, that go on random killing sprees. Needless to say, Flayed Ones aren't very respected by the other Necrons. It's said that it's a C'tan curse, not a normal madness or disease, that plagues them.

The Stasis Docks of Seidon were once in the center of the Necrontyr empire. The "master program" of these Docks broke down, so it sends fleets to random locations every thirty-three weeks. The local Overlord is apparently unaware of this.

Thanatos and the Celestial Orrery. The Celestial Orrery is said to be one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It has a small light for every star in the galaxy. Snuff out the light, and the star will soon follow.

So apparently, Necrons value honor quite a bit and look down on Tomb Worlds which break pacts, go back on their word, act dishonorable, etc.. In addition Flayed Ones are viewed with disdain for being too violent.

Oi vey Necrons, what have they done to you. I really don't understand why they're machines anymore there's no point to it.

While Im all for toning down the power of the Ctan/Necrons some this is indeed BS. WTF would Nids be interested in a Tomb World empire?! Also, why havent the Necrons rofelstomped them before they even entered orbit ect

I think this is indeed a quite crappy change if this turns out to be true

Wow..this sounds horrible to me..
Also some of those names reminded me of "a thousand sons" xD

I don't get why they can't just do small retcons and flesh out the fluff. Nooo, they have to take the old fluff into the woods, smack it in the head with a sock filled with batteries, pour gasoline on it and throw a burning match in its direction while already walking away..

I hope theres a new codex out there that will actually make me WANT to play TT instead of just ruining it more and more for me..

Harriticus wrote:You could have powered down the C'tan simply by stating they're starving and weakened from their long hibernation and are in need of an enormous amount of souls. They are unable to stay in a physical form able to do battle for very long because of this. You don't have to have them essentially destroyed and enslaved.

C'tan need to inhabit a necrodermis body. They just don't make themselves materialized. What gives the C'tan its power is its massive form is condensed and focus otherwise its just to great, its consciousness to spread out to use its awesome power. When a C'tan leaves its Necrodermis body its going to feed on the one source it knows it can gain energy from quickly, a star. And they need souls/stars to recover, but its not like they materialize like daemons do.

Russ Mandarin wrote:The Necrons are now afraid of the Eldar too

They had a bitter rivalry beforehand, due to the huge wars they had. Their rivalries were built on the fact the eldar had weapons which could defeat their gods, the c'tan. In all fairness they shouldnt be afraid, just extremely hateful towards them, moreso than they are to other races

Who's to say all shards are equal? They'e called shards, like shards of glass. If you break a window pane, you have tiny dust like fragments, and huge sharp pieces. The Dragon could have been a huge shard that escaped the Necrons, hence why it was roaming around Earth. There could well be other similar C'tan out there. The Outsider? The one C'tan that escaped, fleeing like a wounded Mammoth chased by the cavemen, killing its own brothers to survive, eventually turning mad due to its fate.

C'Tan weren't nerfed.

If fighting with them nearly broke the Necron empire, an empire that has things like World Engines, then yeah, its safe to assume the fight was beyond measure.

If anything, it substantially buffed how strong they were. Every fight with them so far has been retconned to be a fight with a "shard."

This essentially means the Emperor went from being the guy who could punch C'Tan in the face to the guy who could only punch a shard in the face.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The C'tan own reality. The Emperor is in reality. Ergo, the C'tan own the Emperor.

Well, the weakened Void Dragon could not, and neither could they 'own' the Necrons, apparently. Besides, if they all 'owned' reality, they could not have varying power levels.

King Pariah wrote:Because it's only a SHARD of the Void Dragon, if the Emperor had to put that much effort into putting the SHARD back to a sleep of some sorts, imagine if he stumbled across the Void Dragon if it were complete. Yeah, he'd get his ass handed to him on a silver platter, next course, the human race.

Well, I don't know if we know that the Void Dragon was also shattered. It wouldn't really fit with hibernating after being attacked with the Blackstone Fortresses.

Regardless, I was the comment that "Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan." by Void_Dragon, when the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon (so the Emperor is not weaker than only a shard of a C'tan).

Void__Dragon wrote:Why would the Emperor hold back against the Void Dragon? The Void Dragon wasn't his misguided son, it was a cosmic horror trying to kill him and threatening the human race.

Oh, the Emperor wouldn't hold back, that it doesn't necessarily follow that He could or would use His full power (there are different types of Psychic power afterall, and we don't know His goal (whether or not He actually wanted to kill the Dragon or was merely trying to capture it (I know He said that He couldn't, but He wasn't necessarily telling the truth when He was planning on using the Dragon all along)).

But in the old fluff, the Dragon most definitely survived the fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.

Truth, but in the old background, the Dragon fled and hid because of the Blackstone Fortresses, not because he was shattered. I'm not sure if it now goes: hit by Blackstone Fortresses -> shattered -> shard ends up on earth or if the Dragon avoids getting shattered because he goes to hide straight away.

Not really. There isn't much that a psyker can do, even the strongest of them, that a C'tan can't.

Possibly, although the limits of each haven't really been explored. But still, there may be ways of protecting against the C'tan that don't work against Psykers.

And if the C'tan made the Necrons more powerful than they were while betraying them: They're idiots.

And incredibly arrogant. Although I suppose that it may have been that Necrons were planning their revenge for a long time and developed ways of countering the C'tan (to an extent) without their knowledge.

Or, possibly, the C'tan just tipped the scales in favour of the Necrons rather than merely being more powerful than the Old Ones.

Theoretically, sure. In fact, Magnus the Red has demonstrated it is very much possible to destroy a Titan. Not that it matters. The C'tan in the Necron codex can annihilate solar systems on a whim.

I was referring to the "nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will", which would include anything that a C'tan can do. Theoretically, of course.

Because that was not merely a shard of the Dragon, but one that was, if Mechanicum hasn't been retconned (Holy gak, retconning one of the Horus Heresy books? Wowo), a STARVED shard. One that was a weakened fragment of the real thing.

Yes, but you said that the Emperor was weaker than it when from my interpretation He was stronger than it (you said that "the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan". Besides, it may have been a particularly large and powerful shard.

And the reason they didn't is partly because the Deceiver made use of them to gimp the Nightbringer, and the Void Dragon was already napping due to being hit by a fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.

Wait, how did the Deceiver use the Blackstone Fortresses? It always seemed weird to me how they were portrayed as nearly all-powerful save against Psychic attacks and yet didn't just shred the Blackstone Fortresses with their powers.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Regardless, I was the comment that "Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan." by Void_Dragon, when the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon (so the Emperor is not weaker than only a shard of a C'tan).

I read the story.

The Emperor was more or less equal to the Void Dragon he fought (Though the Void Dragon was kicking his ass the entire fight until the Emperor struck his weak spot). Originally, this was the true Void Dragon, only starved and weakened. Now, if it is indeed a shard, it is now a shard of the Void Dragon that was starved and weakened.

Ergo, Emperor<Shard of Void Dragon at full power><<<Complete Void Dragon.

Oh, the Emperor wouldn't hold back, that it doesn't necessarily follow that He could or would use His full power (there are different types of Psychic power afterall, and we don't know His goal (whether or not He actually wanted to kill the Dragon or was merely trying to capture it (I know He said that He couldn't, but He wasn't necessarily telling the truth when He was planning on using the Dragon all along)).

According to the Emperor and to every other statement on it in Mechanicum, the Emperor couldn't kill the Dragon, not wouldn't, couldn't. I guess you can assume these were lies, but that would be just that, an assumption.

Truth, but in the old background, the Dragon fled and hid because of the Blackstone Fortresses, not because he was shattered. I'm not sure if it now goes: hit by Blackstone Fortresses -> shattered -> shard ends up on earth or if the Dragon avoids getting shattered because he goes to hide straight away.

Because he just got hit by a fleet of the only weapon able to kill a C'tan short of another C'tan.

And the Dragon running and hiding because he's scared, like you said may of happened? Yeah man, that doesn't pussify the C'tan at all.

Possibly, although the limits of each haven't really been explored. But still, there may be ways of protecting against the C'tan that don't work against Psykers.

Name them.

And incredibly arrogant. Although I suppose that it may have been that Necrons were planning their revenge for a long time and developed ways of countering the C'tan (to an extent) without their knowledge.

Which makes them look stupid. The Deceiver was originally a masterful player of the Long Game, able to even outwit and outmaneuver other C'tan and come out on top despite being the weakest of them, now it makes the Necrons stronger than they are and proceeds to get shattered and enslaved. Before that, the only thing that truly caught the Deceiver off guard was the emergence of Chaos, as well as the last assault of the Old Ones.

Or, possibly, the C'tan just tipped the scales in favour of the Necrons rather than merely being more powerful than the Old Ones.

Which is another retcon, originally the reason the Old Ones' struggle was truly futile was because of the "Utter supremacy of the C'tan in the material universe."

I was referring to the "nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will", which would include anything that a C'tan can do. Theoretically, of course.

Theoretically? Maybe. In practice? No, no psyker has ever been shown imprinting itself into proto-life's psyche as the face of death, or annihilating solar systems on a whim. I guess you could assume that the Old Ones were a race of God Emperors, but that seems highly unlikely, and if the Old Ones were more powerful individually than C'tan, then the C'tan wouldn't of crushed them.

Yes, but you said that the Emperor was weaker than it when from my interpretation He was stronger than it (you said that "the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan". Besides, it may have been a particularly large and powerful shard.

He was equal to it, maybe. He didn't win because he was able to outpower it though, not by a long shot. Before the Emperor's attacks couldn't even hurt it, and it overpowered him and started to crush the life out of him, until he struck its weak point. He won, but not because he was more powerful.

Wait, how did the Deceiver use the Blackstone Fortresses? It always seemed weird to me how they were portrayed as nearly all-powerful save against Psychic attacks and yet didn't just shred the Blackstone Fortresses with their powers.

Hm? Oh, the Deceiver did not, the Void Dragon being hit by Blackstone Fortresses was on the behalf of the Eldar race, though it is possible that the Eldar instigated it.

The Blackstone Fortresses are the most powerful psychic weapons in the galaxy, and the one greatest threat to a C'tan. Hence why the Deceiver organised the Gothic War to have them either destroyed or taken beyond the reach of the Eldar.>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:C'Tan weren't nerfed.

If fighting with them nearly broke the Necron empire, an empire that has things like World Engines, then yeah, its safe to assume the fight was beyond measure.

If anything, it substantially buffed how strong they were. Every fight with them so far has been retconned to be a fight with a "shard."

This essentially means the Emperor went from being the guy who could punch C'Tan in the face to the guy who could only punch a shard in the face.

In-universe? Perhaps not. Almost hilariously you could make a convincing argument for the Void Dragon being more powerful than the Chaos Gods combined now, actually.

But from a narrative standpoint?

They are now doomed to be given the Avatar of Khaine treatment, to be punched in half by Ultramarines.

As long as they don't retcon the C'tan into nothing but TT MC's, I'll be ok with it. I'd be ok with the Deceiver running around a'la Tzeentch and just screwing with things, but never bringing his full power to bear. If the Void Dragon is just a shard, that's still one crazy powerful shard to have not only put up a good fight against the Emperor, but to also to have created the Mechanicum simply by existing near the humans on Mars. The Nightbringer, well I guess you'd have to make that a shard, otherwise he would have eaten the entire Ultima Segmentum already. And the Outsider? I wonder how strong he is, or hell, is he even really still in the Dyson Sphere or did they retcon that part, too?

I always liked the C'tan being the materium counterpart to the Chaos gods, but apparently GW likes Chaos being the uber bad guys and everyone else gets reduced to Space Marine punching-bag status.

SoulGazer wrote:
I always liked the C'tan being the materium counterpart to the Chaos gods, but apparently GW likes Chaos being the uber bad guys and everyone else gets reduced to Space Marine punching-bag status.

That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.

iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.

Right.

Because with two C'tan being sleeping and imprisoned, and the other two being weakened and starved, they were definitely encroaching on the Chaos' title of the Big Bad.

If there is any faction that ever upstaged Chaos, it would be the Tyranids. Or it could be GW's incompetence at making Chaos come off as threatening enough.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.

Right.

Because with two C'tan being sleeping and imprisoned, and the other two being weakened and starved, they were definitely encroaching on the Chaos' title of the Big Bad.

If there is any faction that ever upstaged Chaos, it would be the Tyranids. Or it could be GW's incompetence at making Chaos come off as threatening enough.

I'm confused, aren't you the same person that has spent all this time trying to emphasis the contrast between the old and new C'tan? Like being able to imprint an image of death into every living organism bar one species, and being able to snuff out entire star systems on a whim. The Big Four have not presented to do anything like this, they must act through their servants.

iproxtaco wrote:I'm confused, aren't you the same person that has spent all this time trying to emphasis the contrast between the old and new C'tan? Like being able to imprint an image of death into every living organism bar one species, and being able to snuff out entire star systems on a whim. The Big Four have not presented to do anything like this, they must act through their servants.

You are indeed confused.

The C'tan did do that.

... In the past. Millions of years ago.

In the current 40k timeline, the Chaos Gods are a much bigger threat than the C'tan were.

Was there potential for, in the future, the C'tan could regain their full might and become just as threatening as they used to? Yes, that's what cosmic horror is about, cosmic, horrifying threats, that even if they are not capable of destroying the world (Galaxy) now, inevitably the world is doomed.

In 40k, there are three factions that serve such a role, Chaos, the Tyranids, and the C'tan/Necrons.

The difference being that Chaos and the Tyranids are very immediate threats, with the Necrons being a looming, not as active threat.

Narratively, the C'tan could of had the potential to be the Big Bads of the setting, maybe, but in the current timeline, the legions of Chaos and the gods they serve were the Big Bad, with the Tyranids being perhaps the only full faction who could contest Chaos' claim on this. Maybe.

The Chaos Gods and the C'tan were essentially opposites, yes, one being powerful in the Materium, the other the Immaterium, but the C'tan were far less of an immediate threat than the Chaos Gods and their servants were, in the current timeline.

Agreed, although I still think the potential of the C'tan somewhat overshadowed even the current threat of Chaos.
One thing I do disagree on his the removal of any potential involving the C'tan. From my point of view this has only increased it. The C'tan were largely defeated - although the details aren't yet available - yet the current details as scarce as they are tell us that they were only defeated at extreme cost to the Necron Empire, to the point where they had to hibernate of 60,000,000 years to avoid confrontation with the Eldar. We've also been told the Necrons actually fear what could happen if their old masters were to return to power. Both them and the Eldar are not what they once were, a full powered C'tan could well be like they were previously. Then of course there's the potential that some C'tan may have survived. The Outsider? Dare we speculate what destruction a crazed Star-God could wreak?

iproxtaco wrote:Agreed, although I still think the potential of the C'tan somewhat overshadowed even the current threat of Chaos.

I'll give you that, but conversely, Chaos, were it to "win", would evolve to a threat that would kill the C'tan. Were either Chaos or the Necrons to of one, the other would have been destroyed, the Immaterium and Materium no longer being separated (Which will apparently start to happen when the Emperor dies) would of killed the C'tan, and the C'tan severing the Materium from the Immaterium would kill Chaos as well, if it would be a slow starvation or an immediate death is hard to say.

One thing I do disagree on his the removal of any potential involving the C'tan. From my point of view this has only increased it. The C'tan were largely defeated - although the details aren't yet available - yet the current details as scarce as they are tell us that they were only defeated at extreme cost to the Necron Empire, to the point where they had to hibernate of 60,000,000 years to avoid confrontation with the Eldar. We've also been told the Necrons actually fear what could happen if their old masters were to return to power. Both them and the Eldar are not what they once were, a full powered C'tan could well be like they were previously. Then of course there's the potential that some C'tan may have survived. The Outsider? Dare we speculate what destruction a crazed Star-God could wreak?

I'd actually be more okay with this if the big four, especially the Void Dragon and Deceiver, were not enslaved.

I'll admit that, in-setting, this change might of indeed made the C'tan more powerful.

But narratively they will never reach that level of power again, and will just end up being the standard Monstrous Creature that has the honor of being punched in half by special characters.

I can actually admit that, conceivably, this change could be legitimately interesting and maybe even a cool guy... Were it written competently. Let's be honest: It won't be, not if Ward is writing it.

If you want a couple of cool and out of the box ideas for a "necron" like race go check out Ixions post in the fiction forums. Brilliant if you ask me. Do it.

Taking the fluff into his own hands.

Also If anyone would be interested I want to start a Necron fiction discussion thread in that section of the forum. Discussing various things just like the one above and having the thread dedicated to intelligent discussion and sharing of ideas. Any interest in this, let me know here or PM me. I think we could have alot of fun with that.

The best/most hilarious part of this debate is that it is using terminology from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

It would be nice if The Outsider was now maddened by the destruction of his fellow C'tan, rather than their shards driving him insane.

I'm most looking forward to finding out where the C'tan now sit in the new codex fluff.

So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat700019a&prodId=prod1380036a&rootCatGameStyle=

Why would a machine care about that!?!?!? Damn you Matt Ward!

I read it all.

It's fething slowed.

Oh and our so-called close combat units, barring the C'tan, all seem to have I2.

Lol...