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Oh no.... oh god no... I didn't believe the rumors at first. I was thinking, "The whole theme of the Necrons is that they're enslaved to thirsting eldritch abominations, they wouldn't have them become honorable Egyptian robots who enslaved the C'tan." I heard Matt Ward was working on it and I thought, "But he's hated, they wouldn't have him do a codex this big. Everyone is just being negative."

Well, looks like I'm too much of an optimist. 5th Edition may mark the decline of 40k.

Harriticus wrote:

So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat700019a&prodId=prod1380036a&rootCatGameStyle=

Why would a machine care about that!?!?!? Damn you Matt Ward!

This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.

Ixion wrote:This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.

feth yeah, idiotic cartoon villainy has been the domain of Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar for far too long! Now the Necrons are getting into some of that action!

Ixion wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat700019a&prodId=prod1380036a&rootCatGameStyle=

Why would a machine care about that!?!?!? Damn you Matt Ward!

This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.

That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.

Nooo... I didn't believe the rumours I guess I'll just pretend this retcon never happened from now on and ignore any mention of the C'tan being imprisoned...

Harriticus wrote:That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.

That's what hits me as strange about the complaint-- they always were the Necrontyr in metal bodies. The changes are now more of them are actually fully sentient, and they've been given personalities, and on the latter I'm afraid I must concede that not a lot of good work has been done that I've been able to ascertain. The concept has merit, but the direction it's been taken in is bland at best.

Which is to say nothing of the Egyptian inspirations. Before they were subtle, defined in broad enough terms and masked under enough black metal to be palatable; now it's laid on with a trowel and is too obvious to ignore even by those of us who want to. So let it not be said that I'm only defending the new Necrons because they're new; I do take issue with a number of elements of their design, just not with the concept of revision itself.

Ixion wrote:

Harriticus wrote:That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.

That's what hits me as strange about the complaint-- they always were the Necrontyr in metal bodies. The changes are now more of them are actually fully sentient, and they've been given personalities, and on the latter I'm afraid I must concede that not a lot of good work has been done that I've been able to ascertain. The concept has merit, but the direction it's been taken in is bland at best.

Which is to say nothing of the Egyptian inspirations. Before they were subtle, defined in broad enough terms and masked under enough black metal to be palatable; now it's laid on with a trowel and is too obvious to ignore even by those of us who want to. So let it not be said that I'm only defending the new Necrons because they're new; I do take issue with a number of elements of their design, just not with the concept of revision itself.

They were what remained of the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There was a tragic story behind them and this was combined with the concept of a machine army, something a sci-fi setting like 40k needed. Now they're basically the Necrontyr in every respect but their flesh. You could give higher level Necron Lords some kind of personality without utterly ruining their lore by killing off C'tan, making Necrons trade with other races or do moronic things like spare enemies, and so on.

Frankly the idea that an alien race should be humanised is idiotic.

Even the Tau and Eldar are alien in thought and reason, when written competently.

Harriticus wrote:They were what remained of the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There was a tragic story behind them and this was combined with the concept of a machine army, something a sci-fi setting like 40k needed. Now they're basically the Necrontyr in every respect but their flesh. You could give higher level Necron Lords some kind of personality without utterly ruining their lore by killing off C'tan, making Necrons trade with other races or do moronic things like spare enemies, and so on.

To be perfectly honest, I know what you mean; mercy is something pretty much out of place in the entire 40k universe. The sparing of foes I could perhaps see coming from the Tau, but the Necrons have little motive to do so-- at least as we know them. For all I know, there's some huge reveal in the works explaining a whole expanded history where this makes perfect sense for them, but I get the nagging feeling that'd get pounced on as heresy as well.

So if I'm sorting all this out correctly, the gripe is that the new Necrons don't take full advantage of their now vestigial robotic bodies or their machine nature, losing their great tragic motivation in the process. I think would feel this loss more sharply if I felt like their original backstory actually was tragic; there's just so much else that goes on in 40k by comparison that I just can't get worked up over them being taken advantage of by the C'tan. Just the Imperium's day-to-day status quo tugs more heartstrings.

It's not supposed to be tragic as much as it is terrifying, and incomprehensible.

The Necrontyr as a race were consumed and united by a single-minded hatred so great that they sold their souls and their freedom, damning themselves so they could act on their hatred.

Now, as I said before, rather than uniting out of an ancient and singular hatred, their war against the Old Ones was a team-building exercise.

Void__Dragon wrote:Frankly the idea that an alien race should be humanised is idiotic.

Even the Tau and Eldar are alien in thought and reason, when written competently.

Which is assuming emotions of pride, regret, jealousy and the like are specific to humans, which is simply not true within 40k. And you're forgetting it's only the Lords and other very high ranking Necrons that have any form of sentience. Regardless, their metal bodies are still a key element to their backstory. The VAST majority are still mindless automatons at the bidding of their Overlords. The C'tan tricked them into their new bodies, it served as the driving force behind their war with their erstwhile masters. Even in the present, it's what motivates the Silent King; the complete re-unification of his people, and then their transferal back to organic forms.
And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.

iproxtaco wrote:Which is assuming emotions of pride, regret, jealousy and the like are specific to humans, which is simply not true within 40k. And you're forgetting it's only the Lords and other very high ranking Necrons that have any form of sentience. Regardless, their metal bodies are still a key element to their backstory. The VAST majority are still mindless automatons at the bidding of their Overlords. The C'tan tricked them into their new bodies, it served as the driving force behind their war with their erstwhile masters. Even in the present, it's what motivates the Silent King, the complete re-unification of his people, and then their transferal back to organic forms.

You forgot to mention now the Silent King is all totally sad and guilty about leading his people into slavery.

Within 40k, the Necrons being alien to humans was a fact of their existence. Were they incapable of interacting with them because of that? No, but that aspect is gone now.

Just because you like it doesn't change the fact that the new Necrons are a retcon, a complete rewrite of everything about them.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree that its a complete retcon. You just refuse to look at what has stayed 100% the same.

iproxtaco wrote:And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.

I call it a team-building exercise because that's what it was.

The Necrontyr now originally were at war with eachother and killing off eachother, so the Silent King, to unite the Necrontyr race, sent them to war with the Old Ones.

That's what a team-building exercise is.

You seem to have some strange issue with me not liking the new Necrons. You seem to be under the impression that all opinions on the new Necrons that don't boil down to "I like them" should not be voiced. You would be wrong.

Void__Dragon wrote:Just because you like it doesn't change the fact that the new Necrons are a retcon, a complete rewrite of everything about them.

And just because the new Necrons are a retcon and a complete rewrite doesn't change the fact that some people like them.

Ixion wrote:And just because the new Necrons are a retcon and a complete rewrite doesn't change the fact that some people like them.

While it's cute that you jump into this thread and assume that I am faulting people for liking them, nothing could be further from the truth.

I have repeatedly emphasized that I don't fault people for liking the "new" Necrons, I only take some issue with the fact that some people aren't capable of admitting that this is, in fact, a massive retcon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Well, I wholeheartedly disagree that its a complete retcon. You just refuse to look at what has stayed 100% the same.

Which is?

Sure I guess most Necrons are still mindless automotons, and...

...

That's all I've got.

Oh and I guess they still do fight other factions a lot, but that's true for every faction, and not really worthy of discussion. It's a wargame, no gak they fight a lot.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Ixion wrote:And just because the new Necrons are a retcon and a complete rewrite doesn't change the fact that some people like them.

While it's cute that you jump into this thread and assume that I am faulting people for liking them, nothing could be further from the truth.

I have repeatedly emphasized that I don't fault people for liking the "new" Necrons, I only take some issue with the fact that some people aren't capable of admitting that this is, in fact, a massive retcon.

I'll give you that; I have been harping on about this for a while now. I can't even explain why exactly; I'm still a greenhorn here and already I've got all these opinions on things I've just heard of. If I've come across as hounding, I apologize.

As for retconning, I don't know if the issue is that they won't admit it's a retcon or that they just don't think a retcon is a bad thing-- which seems to be what you're suggesting, but I could be misreading that completely.

Gotta say that from what I have read so far I am dissappointed in the "new Necrons". Which is a shame. I was hoping that rather than change who they are and what they stand for in the universe they would simply be an easier army to build some fluff around. Im not saying all of its bad, there are alot of things I like but the Necrons should remain a constant, unpredictable and incredibly deadly threat to all life. They shouldnt be making petty alliances and trade agreements. And they DEFINATELY shouldnt have used the Nightbringer and the Deciever as shards. For me that doesnt make them a threat anymore. Sure they could be a big threat if they were to become whole again but really, what are the chances of that ever happening. One can only hope that this is further explained once I get my Codex and the next issue of white dwarf. Otherwise I may use said magazine as toilet paper. I shall do to Matt Ward what he has done on to my Necrons. Sh*t on him.

That is all.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.

I call it a team-building exercise because that's what it was.

The Necrontyr now originally were at war with eachother and killing off eachother, so the Silent King, to unite the Necrontyr race, sent them to war with the Old Ones.

That's what a team-building exercise is.

You seem to have some strange issue with me not liking the new Necrons. You seem to be under the impression that all opinions on the new Necrons that don't boil down to "I like them" should not be voiced. You would be wrong.

I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.

iproxtaco wrote:I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.

What parts of the information have I been ignoring?

If there was some gem I missed in my constant outpour of nerdrage in the Necron rumors (Not so much rumors anymore with the GW site having some information), then by all means, tell me.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Well, I wholeheartedly disagree that its a complete retcon. You just refuse to look at what has stayed 100% the same.

Which is?

Sure I guess most Necrons are still mindless automotons, and...

...

That's all I've got.

Oh and I guess they still do fight other factions a lot, but that's true for every faction, and not really worthy of discussion. It's a wargame, no gak they fight a lot.

Pretty much everything about them is exactly the same up until the Old Ones were wiped out. Certain things have been fleshed out, elaborated, or added, but the story is the same. What's actually a retcon though? Just the stuff about their war against the C'tan and why they went into stasis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.

What parts of the information have I been ignoring?

If there was some gem I missed in my constant outpour of nerdrage in the Necron rumors (Not so much rumors anymore with the GW site having some information), then by all means, tell me.

Maybe not some much ignoring as carefully selecting and taking out of context. I've already listed them earlier.

iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much everything about them is exactly the same up until the Old Ones were wiped out. Certain things have been fleshed out, elaborated, or added, but the story is the same. What's actually a retcon though? Just the stuff about their war against the C'tan and why they went into stasis.

Taking the Cosmic Horror out of them is taking out a lot of what made them Necrons.

But their reasoning for warring with the Old Ones is different, and frankly makes me like them a lot less. I won't fault you for liking it, but fact of the matter is that originally, the war with the Old Ones was spurred on by an envy that resulted in a singular hatred that united them, when now the Silent King instead set the Necrontyr against the Old Ones in an effort to eradicate the in-fighting among the Necrontyr. That's a retcon. It's only the same in a basic "Necrontyr go to war with Old Ones" sense, but it takes the malice of the Necrontyr out of it, the alien hatred that united their race against them.

Perhaps you like that better? Fine, I won't fault you for that.

But it was a retcon.

Unless of course, perhaps that is how the Silent King united the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones, but it still brings the Necrontyr much closer to being humanised than I am frankly comfortable with.

That would be my biggest issue with the changes to the fluff. Ward (Or GW, whatever) have made the Necrons seem altogether more human, less implacable and unreasonable.

It gets better! Necrons are 64 million years old, dinosaurs died 64 million years ago. Necrons killed the dinosaurs.

despite the fluff change, I still like them if they're similar to how they're portrayed in Fall of Damnos.

I'll actually concede that a good deal of the as you call it 'cosmic horror' has gone from them. The C'tan have more, the Necrons have maybe been humanized a bit more than they needed. I think a greater impact would have been if they had contrasted between before and after they were robotized. Before, there were many faction and characters (obviously not too in-depth), but then after, all of this was eradicated, with only a select few retaining any sort of free will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Nobody wrote:It gets better! Necrons are 64 million years old, dinosaurs died 64 million years ago. Necrons killed the dinosaurs.

despite the fluff change, I still like them if they're similar to how they're portrayed in Fall of Damnos.

The Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago.

iproxtaco wrote:I'll actually concede that a good deal of the as you call it 'cosmic horror' has gone from them. The C'tan have more, the Necrons have maybe been humanized a bit more than they needed. I think a greater impact would have been if they had contrasted between before and after they were robotized. Before, there were many faction and characters (obviously not too in-depth), but then after, all of this was eradicated, with only a select few retaining any sort of free will.

Maybe, executed well, that could actually be a good read.

But then, let's be honest, Ward is writing it, and well... *Generic Ward's incompetence rage hate statement*

I do not have faith.

So who actually has the new 'Dex?

Considering it just came out for sale today I imagine nobody. Call back in the next 2 days.

BrainDeleted wrote:So who actually has the new 'Dex?

Good point, but most of what they're ripping each other apart over has pretty much already been set in stone

iproxtaco wrote:I do not have faith.