Tennessee law designed to curb teaching of"Gateway Sexual Activity"

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**dogma**

biccat wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Given the number of teen pregnanices in this country, your proposal might well be correct!

Does the increased prevalance of sex-ed in classrooms over the past few decades change your opinion?

I see we're still laboring under the delusion that teen pregnancy has gone up in concert with the availability of sex education and contraceptives.

**PhantomViper**

biccat wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:Well, you could simply leave that sump of oppression and tyranny! I hear that there are a few countries in Africa where everyone is free to do as they please, I'm sure the citizens of those countries are allot better of for it!

Actually, most of the problems in those countries are due to decades of despotic government.

But I'm sure you knew that.

Actually, most of the problems in african nations are derived from historically hostile tribes being forced to live together due to artificial national boundaries left behind by the colonising western nations.

But I'm sure you knew that (or maybe not, since apparently studying history is a sign of oppression).

**dogma**

biccat wrote:
Actually, most of the problems in those countries are due to decades of despotic government.

Depends on the country. In some places its a matter of despotic government, in some its a matter of the state allowing private citizens to exercise their freedom to kill one another, and in still others its a matter of there not being any sort of government (in the modern sense) at all.

**biccat**

sirlynchmob wrote:no he was required by law and faced punishments if he didn't

The OSHA hardhat regulation didn't apply at that job. For a variety of reasons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Well then biccat, if you dont take advantage of your freedom, be quiet.

Yes, this is usually how it goes.

"Sit down, shut up, we'll decide what's good for you."

**d-usa**

biccat wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Well then biccat, if you dont take advantage of your freedom, be quiet.

Yes, this is usually how it goes.

"Sit down, shut up, we'll decide what's good for you."

As opposed to "Sit down and listen to us scream, we'll decide what's good for you."

**dogma**

biccat wrote:
Why would I want to homeschool?

I'm forced to pay for stuff like education and other programs, so I'm going to take advantage of them to the fullest extent I can. If Obama's health care bill is upheld, I'll drop my health insurance and take advantage of the "free" health insurance that I'm paying for anyway.

If you're willing to send your children to public school, despite it ostensibly being tyrannical in nature, then either you aren't especially opposed to tyranny or you don't really believe public school is tyrannical and are choosing to use that word to elicit an emotional response.

Well, that, or you don't know what it is for something to be tyrannical.

**sirlynchmob**

biccat wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:no he was required by law and faced punishments if he didn't

The OSHA hardhat regulation didn't apply at that job. For a variety of reasons.

It did, you just weren't trained properly it seems:

http://www.allaboutosha.com/employee-rights
Am I covered?

If you work for a company and not part of the government, than you are most likely covered by either the Federal OSHA regulations or if the state you work in opted to do so, State specific OSHA programs. Your employer is must comply with the applicable State/Federal OSHA regulations that relate to the type of work you and your company performs. If your employer fails to comply with a regulation, OSHA can fine them for violating health and safety standards.

**Melissia**

Or he's just trolling.

**biccat**

sirlynchmob wrote:You were, you just weren't trained properly it seems:

For a variety of reasons I'm not going to get into because it's personal information.

**sirlynchmob**

biccat wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:You were, you just weren't trained properly it seems:

For a variety of reasons I'm not going to get into because it's personal information.

that's fine, but the point is, OSHA was being tyrannical by forcing your employer to provide you with a safe work environment. And fining them if they don't.

**Vulcan**

biccat wrote:
Vulcan wrote:Given the number of teen pregnanices in this country, your proposal might well be correct!

Does the increased prevalance of sex-ed in classrooms over the past few decades change your opinion?

YES! Because as the prevalece of sex-ed in classrooms INCREASED over the past few decades, the number of teen pregnancies has DECREASED! Oh, look! A clear cause and effect!

And then we get these mooks in Tennessee who want to turn back the clock.

Vulcan wrote:neither she nor my father were any more informed than the typical modern 13-year-old because that was the standard of the times. And they are not stupid; both were on good scholarships and placed VERY high in their classes. They just had never been educated.

Are you saying your parents didn't know that sex=babies when they had sex? That doesn't sound particularly educated to me. Maybe we've got different standards of "educated."

My parents answered the "where do babies come from" question well before I reached puberty.

**biccat**

Vulcan wrote:YES! Because as the prevalece of sex-ed in classrooms INCREASED over the past few decades, the number of teen pregnancies has DECREASED! Oh, look! A clear cause and effect!

I'm pretty sure this was addressed earlier.

Vulcan wrote:And my grandparents DID NOT answer the question. Next.

So your grandparents were bad parents*. And somehow your parents survived. And reproduced! Will the wonders never cease?

Vulcan wrote:Ah, yes. And what happens when Mom and Dad fail, either due to negligence, ignorace, or just plain procrastination?

Well, you get kids who make stupid mistakes. Hopefully they learn from their (own and) parents' mistakes and don't repeat them. Maybe they do. Life goes on.

* at least as far as explaining this part. Although I suspect you'll get upset anyway.

**hotsauceman1**

hotsauceman1 wrote:Well then biccat, if you dont take advantage of your freedom, be quiet.

Yes, this is usually how it goes.

"Sit down, shut up, we'll decide what's good for you."

**Vulcan**

biccat wrote:
Vulcan wrote:YES! Because as the prevalece of sex-ed in classrooms INCREASED over the past few decades, the number of teen pregnancies has DECREASED! Oh, look! A clear cause and effect!

I'm pretty sure this was addressed earlier.

And yet you continue to ignore it.

Vulcan wrote:And my grandparents DID NOT answer the question. Next.

So your grandparents were bad parents*. And somehow your parents survived. And reproduced! Will the wonders never cease?

Unintended reproduction was kinda the point. And in this aspect, I admit my grandparents WERE bad parents - as were my own parents.**

Vulcan wrote:Ah, yes. And what happens when Mom and Dad fail, either due to negligence, ignorace, or just plain procrastination?

Well, you get kids who make stupid mistakes. Hopefully they learn from their (own and) parents' mistakes and don't repeat them. Maybe they do. Life goes on.

No, you get kids who make mistakes IN IGNORANCE, which is not the same thing. STUPID mistakes are "I know better and choose to do it anyway." IGNORANT mistakes are "I don't know better in the first place!"

One is a failure of the individual, the other a failure of society.

* at least as far as explaining this part. Although I suspect you'll get upset anyway.

** so I'm not going to get upset about that. Facts don't upset me. People who ignore facts upset me.

**Dark Apostle 666**

Think that there's a very important point that hasn't been mentioned yet, which is that abstinance sucks.

By that token, is it not a good idea to teach alternative ways to be safe that do not involve repression and/or "self-gratification"?

I honestly wish I'd had better sex ed, because going to a school where the majority were doing "the nasty" at 12, people seemed to assume that we already knew all we needed to.

I honestly think It's a deluded attitude to think that sexual education is a bad thing.

**biccat**

Vulcan wrote:No, you get kids who make mistakes IN IGNORANCE, which is not the same thing. STUPID mistakes are "I know better and choose to do it anyway." IGNORANT mistakes are "No one told me it was a bad idea in the first place!"

One is a failure of the individual, the other a failure of society.

I suspect, although I could be wrong, that shortly after making the mistake, your parents realized the path to conception. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that they had figured it out by the time your younger sister was born.

They may have realized that having a kid at a young age is difficult, and that it would be easier later in life. That is the important life lesson that they should've imparted to you.

It's not society's job to tell you what is or isn't a bad idea. But even if it is, it's wrong for someone to force you to sit through a lecture explaining what is or isn't a bad idea.

**hotsauceman1**

Not to mention, The reward center of a teens brain is more developed then that long term consequences.

**Melissia**

Biccat, you realize that the "pull out" method was at one point believed to be a proper method of birth control? Heh.

**Vulcan**

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Think that there's a very important point that hasn't been mentioned yet, which is that abstinance sucks.

By that token, is it not a good idea to teach alternative ways to be safe that do not involve repression and/or "self-gratification"?

I honestly wish I'd had better sex ed, because going to a school where the majority were doing "the nasty" at 12, people seemed to assume that we already knew all we needed to.

I honestly think It's a deluded attitude to think that sexual education is a bad thing.

The problem is that hardcore conservatives and religious people think you shouldn't be doing 'the nasty' AT ALL. Sex only for procreation and all that jazz. Certainly not to be indulged in outside the marriage, or even enjoyed for that matter. In short, their point of view regards Repression of the natural drive as the GOAL, not the PROBLEM.

**dogma**

biccat wrote:
Vulcan wrote:YES! Because as the prevalece of sex-ed in classrooms INCREASED over the past few decades, the number of teen pregnancies has DECREASED! Oh, look! A clear cause and effect!

I'm pretty sure this was addressed earlier.

In the sense that you claimed that there was a spike in teenage pregnancy following the wide availability of contraceptives, sure.

The problem is that, while there was a spike in teenage pregnancy during the 70's, it has since decreased markedly and now occurs at the lowest rate since the CDC began tracking the phenomenon. Similarly, teen sexual activity has fallen consistently for the last ~20 years*.

There is literally no evidence to suggest the truth of anything you have claimed regarding the effects of sex education, or contraceptive availability.

*Alternate source.

**biccat**

Vulcan wrote:The problem is that hardcore conservatives and religious people think you shouldn't be doing 'the nasty' AT ALL. Sex only for procreation and all that jazz. Certainly not to be indulged in outside the marriage, or even enjoyed for that matter. In short, their point of view regards Repression of the natural drive as the GOAL, not the PROBLEM.

well, there you have it. Conservatives are all about repression.

And I think that will just about do it for me.

See response upthread.

**d-usa**

Melissia wrote:Biccat, you realize that the "pull out" method was at one point believed to be a proper method of birth control? Heh.

I thought at one point "women are supposed to be pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen" was also an acceptable interpretation of birth control as well

**sirlynchmob**

biccat wrote:
Vulcan wrote:No, you get kids who make mistakes IN IGNORANCE, which is not the same thing. STUPID mistakes are "I know better and choose to do it anyway." IGNORANT mistakes are "No one told me it was a bad idea in the first place!"

One is a failure of the individual, the other a failure of society.

I suspect, although I could be wrong, that shortly after making the mistake, your parents realized the path to conception. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that they had figured it out by the time your younger sister was born.

They may have realized that having a kid at a young age is difficult, and that it would be easier later in life. That is the important life lesson that they should've imparted to you.

It's not society's job to tell you what is or isn't a bad idea. But even if it is, it's wrong for someone to force you to sit through a lecture explaining what is or isn't a bad idea.

Sure it is, all kids in school should get a proper education, which should include proper safety and hygiene. There should be no option for parents to opt out, if you kid is in school, they should get taught about safe sex and how to avoid pregnancy. If you think its a good idea to teach your own kids about it, then why do you have a problem with schools also teaching kids about it? with two sources of information, the kid should be twice as knowledgeable on the subject.

It has been proven that states where they have no sex ed have higher rates of teen pregnancy and in states with proper sex ed have lower rates.

**dogma**

biccat wrote:
It's not society's job to tell you what is or isn't a bad idea.

Sure it is, that's why we have laws. And really, morality as well. In fact without society there isn't much reason to have morality at all.

biccat wrote:
But even if it is, it's wrong for someone to force you to sit through a lecture explaining what is or isn't a bad idea.

And yet parents seem to make a habit of it. Clearly parenting is wrong.

That's a literal interpretation of your statement, but even if you're referring only to non-parents or the state its fairly difficult to justify the existence of criminal law if you're not going to provide at least some degree of instruction, both via socialization and the relay of fact.

**Vulcan**

biccat wrote:
Vulcan wrote:No, you get kids who make mistakes IN IGNORANCE, which is not the same thing. STUPID mistakes are "I know better and choose to do it anyway." IGNORANT mistakes are "No one told me it was a bad idea in the first place!"

One is a failure of the individual, the other a failure of society.

I suspect, although I could be wrong, that shortly after making the mistake, your parents realized the path to conception. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that they had figured it out by the time your younger sister was born.

They may have realized that having a kid at a young age is difficult, and that it would be easier later in life. That is the important life lesson that they should've imparted to you.

It's not society's job to tell you what is or isn't a bad idea. But even if it is, it's wrong for someone to force you to sit through a lecture explaining what is or isn't a bad idea.

So. If my sister hadn't educated herself and become a mother at 14, that's just fine with you? Because our parents (and their parents, and lord knows how many generations before that) didn't want to touch the subject? It's WORSE to make someone listen to a lecture than to make them have kids at a ridiculously young age because they follow a biological urge and no one told them the consequences? Are you seriously claiming that?!?

On a related note: So, it is then wrong to force kids to sit through 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months out of the year, for 13 years? That IS what you are saying, right?

**Melissia**

Vulcan wrote:On a related note: So, it is then wrong to force kids to sit through 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months out of the year, for 13 years? That IS what you are saying, right?

Yes.

As I said earlier, he's trolling.

**Dark Apostle 666**

^ admittedly with some sucess...

Albeit only in that he's getting reactions, rather than actually making a cohesive argument...

**Vulcan**

If he's trolling... then why haven't the Mods watching (participating, even!) in this thread taken action yet? Or do I actually have to hit the 'report' button first?

**Corpsesarefun**

Biccat and Frazz are given a little extra leash.

**Vulcan**

With that, I'm off this topic.