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Some weapons do say" No armor saves can be taken against this weapon" I believe most of the newer codexs word it like that(DE,Necrons,GK,etc.)

There are a few weapons that say that.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.

AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.

How does it hurt longfangs? This would make it harder to kill terminators and similiar units, which longfangs couldn't kill anyways.

If anything it would make longfangs with Lascannons more valuable.

loota boy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.

AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.

How does it hurt longfangs? This would make it harder to kill terminators and similiar units, which longfangs couldn't kill anyways.

Because it'd mean they'd have to upgrade on up to a few lascannons, where they aren't exactly as cheap as they were before with missles.

Not exactly a nerf, but hey.

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

But the point I wanted to make was that it appears the only logical solution to 2+ saves will be AP2 ranged weapons. No longer will that tactical sergeant be a termie killer with his PW, he'll just have to take a PF instead now....

Its fine by me, I always liked my Tactical terminators anyway.

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?

Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?

Well, DCA aren't an elusive hard counter to terminators. Anything with power weapons that aren't I1 are fatal to tactical terminators these days and that's a no-no. 2+ just isn't that great in close combat or ranged anymore.

Personally, I would LOVE to see an across-the-board nerf for GKs. Ap3 weapons everyone for free is still extremely cheesy but at least you won't see GK troops gently caressing terminators and 2+ to death now.

Just thinking, this would make MANz a hard-counter to Paladins, wouldn't it? All those NFW (except the hammer) would bounce of mega-armour, while powerklaws still ignore tactical dreadnought armor and cause instant death to them.

Me likes.

Jidmah wrote:Just thinking, this would make MANz a hard-counter to Paladins, wouldn't it? All those NFW (except the hammer) would bounce of mega-armour, while powerklaws still ignore tactical dreadnought armor and cause instant death to them.

Me likes.

Dat'll teach da shiny gitz!

master crafted power weapons should be AP 2

captain collius wrote:Seriously this is a bad Idea it means prettymuch anything going against draigo wing or Deathwing is up a creek of feces with no paddle.

the only army that can have powerweapons evrywhere is gk if you wann fix the problem NERF THEM.

I like it for just that reason...since Im working on a counts-as Deathwing army, and my first squad of stormbolter terminators has chainfists.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?

Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.

The point I was making is that you CAN make good Chaos Terminator squads, so no they don't suck. YES there will always be a counter to anything in 40k, but that is the nature of the beast. I personally don't like the idea of AP values on power weapons, save modifiers would be better, but if it is the case then it's time to find new ways of dealing with 2+ armour as power weapons will no longer be viable.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.

Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?

Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.

The point I was making is that you CAN make good Chaos Terminator squads, so no they don't suck. YES there will always be a counter to anything in 40k, but that is the nature of the beast. I personally don't like the idea of AP values on power weapons, save modifiers would be better, but if it is the case then it's time to find new ways of dealing with 2+ armour as power weapons will no longer be viable.

Pretty much, I was using the standard of a cheap unit that could overtake it. If I really wanted to I could've said Gray Knights and be done with it, as you've practically spent a ton on something that isn't viable at all against the army style.

orkdestroyer1 wrote:master crafted power weapons should be AP 2

Kind of a small impact change, since master crafted power weapons are only seen on characters now.

I personally feel like 2+ saves are a bit meaningless, woohoo you are better against high AP weapons, but outside of single unit weapons (like hot-shot lasguns, sternguard ammo, or vespid guns) whatever penetrates a 3+ save generally penetrates a 2+ save. Guard has exceptions like the basilisk and LRBT, but even then the Demolisher and executioner kill both, as do plasma and melta weapons in all their forms.

-Loki- wrote:

orkdestroyer1 wrote:master crafted power weapons should be AP 2

Kind of a small impact change, since master crafted power weapons are only seen on characters now.

And Sanguinary Guard. The Glaive Encarmines they carry are master crafted power weapons.

Also some GK Paladins and some other GK units can have Master crafted power weapons.

Ehh, i can see AP2 on relic blades, but probably not on master crafted, unless master crafted gets a jump in points.

This would also give a slight boost to the Tyrannofex.
Since it has a 2+ save, it would gets its save from force weapons, making it much harder for GK to kill.

Over all 2+ armour isn't a protect all save any more. People have found ways to counter it, the most popular one WAS a power weapon in hand or a plasmagun over shoulder. If this change is about making 2+ saves viable again I think they are looking at it the wrong way, lowering power weapons means people will just take Power Fists instead or just take plasma weapons in droves and not bother with assaults. I've thought about my suggestion previously about being able to use both an armour AND an invulnerable save, simply make the secondary save never better than a 5+ meaning 1/3 of all failed 2+ saves still survive...

EDIT: But then again power weapons would still just slice right through termies with ease... hmmmm.... more thought required...

Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.

Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.

Agreed.

And it's not like he's a walk in the park right now.

DoW

Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.

Draigo?

it makes anything with a SS fething annoying , Draigo's just an afterthought.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote: people will just take Power Fists instead or just take plasma weapons in droves and not bother with assaults..

Currently people don't take PWs in their squads and usually take PFs instead. Think about it -- how often does your PF die in a squad before it can swing? What value does that PW and extra attack give -- especially if your wounding on a 4+.

What this change hits hardest are squads with power weapons as default weapons. Suddenly DCAs have a hard counter and can't kill every unit in assault like they could. GK purifiers/strike squads can no longer just assault their way out terminators.

It also effects ICs. PW wielding ICs can hit a wall when facing terminator armor. This gives a very strong advantage to models like Calgar or Abbadon who are wielding PFs in assault, and hurts ICs like draigo who are not.

Anyone have any idea what the AP value would be for Monstrous Creatures? If someone already posted it, I apologize.

Well, present rumour claims that power weapons will be AP2 in any case. If that turns out to be correct, this discussion will, regrettably, have been academic, and Terminators without Storm Shields will still be suboptimal choices.

Ah well... back to Space Hulk.

Probably still just "No armor saves allowed" like they are now.