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So terminators saves in combat are a bit better; but I have twice the rapid-firing fire power? Sounds fair to me.
I'll trade half the kills in combat for 50% more in shooting.

-Matt

I have to say Orks individually or small groups are not effective at shooting, they are individually poor. It's the old Stalin "Quantity vs Quality" argument in large numbers they are reasonable, but then as previous alluded to, Frag missiles, Whirlwinds, TFC and Vindicators really punish them. The key point many missed in my post, is the shooting is irrelevant, the ork player was stopping me using Combat tactics. yes he might killed one or two marines with shooting but I had a chance to escape, but he knew if got me in assault I would have to duke it out and lose. This is effective use of tactics, he denied me the use of combat tactics by deliberately not shooting, what he did was "seal my fate" by not giving me the chance to use Combat tactics, break off and possibly have another round of rapid firing him.

Orks are very effective in CC and not very effective in CQB shooting. He used his strength perfectly to counter my strengths and ultimately destroyed the unit. If I had Counter-assault (instead of Combat tactics) my 10 man unit would have put out double the number of attacks (assuming they pass the roll). If I could of killed few more orks potentially I could have won the combat. He knew my vanilla marines had Combat tactics and he made sound tactical decisions to ensure that I had no escape. The potential of killing a few more marines in shooting weighed against the chance for me to combat tactics away and rapid fire him, was judged to be too much of a risk for too little gain. I would say he was sound in his judgement.

loota boy wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:

mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

You're right, although they have crappy shooting skill they make up for it with lots of shots. I was just being a bit hyperbolic to play up their strength in combat by sheer weight of numbers of attacks.

Also please don't quote Stalin at me. You may respect him but he was a complete lunatic and I am not going to take any advice coming from him.


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Kain wrote:Plus if Orks had BS3 or 4 I'm pretty sure they'd become outright broken with the amount of shots they can pour out.

I hope that pancake wasn't correct when it came to shooting modifiers. I would hate that.

I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.

mwnciboo wrote:I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.

My comment was aimed at loota boy originally but I can see you also have a quote by him in your sig. Fair enough, you have your reasons for that quote. I'm not saying that Stalin is wrong but I'd just rather if someone is going to make a point by quote, that they quote somebody who wasn't a lunatic.

Touche sir .... I concede your point. (although I have to say history has it's fair share of lunatics on the victorious/righteous side, history is written by the victors afterall )

mwnciboo wrote:Touche sir .... I concede your point. (although I have to say history has it's fair share of lunatics on the victorious/righteous side, history is written by the victors afterall )

Sure, but Stalin was an extra special lunatic who needlessly slaughtered tons of his own people. Communism: one big massive failure.

Karl Marx: You need to get rid of religion, it allows the Tzars to oppress you.
Revolunionists : Okie Dokie.
Lennin: Muhahahahahaha, now we will oppress the people.
Stalin: I like the way you think.

I would heartily recommend a book on Chairman Mao's great leap forward. It's possibly the most unintentionally ridiculous and murderous thing every done by a communist country and actually was a great leap backwards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Read all of this article...It literally beggars belief.

Communism doesn't work, but every year University spills out alot of little lefty believers, even though the whole system is impossible.

I think we've derailed this enough.....Roll on 6th Ed I want to see these rules !!!

mwnciboo wrote:I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.

If by 20 million you mean 1.6 million then yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
I'm not sure if he'd fit in the 40k universe. Sure he was a bloodthirsty prick, but I can't see him taking very kindly to the Imperium. Even if he were a tyranical planetary governer he'd have to respect the Imperial Authority to a certain degree.
He was very much a "tin pot tyrant". Emotionally under-developed, technically inept, and an utter bastard.

The figures are widely disputed.
http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/

There is guy on Dakka called Big P, who is a Professional Historian, he will in a pinch tell you. He is amazing when it comes to WW2 and modern history and really helps with the Flames of War fraternity on Dakka.

woah woah woah, waaay off topic here guys. Take it to some other forum.

loota boy wrote:woah woah woah, waaay off topic here guys. Take it to some other forum.

Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.

DarthOvious wrote:
Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.

I think it would be a bad change. Not every army has ubiquitous powerfists, lightnign claws, etc or their equivalent. Its hard enough for some armies in close combat and now they want to radically change power weapons too? Its too much. Leave it the way it was unless some armies get some radical buff to their shooting or close combat it will truly be over for them when it comes to competetiveness.

andrewm9 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:
Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.

I think it would be a bad change. Not every army has ubiquitous powerfists, lightnign claws, etc or their equivalent. Its hard enough for some armies in close combat and now they want to radically change power weapons too? Its too much. Leave it the way it was unless some armies get some radical buff to their shooting or close combat it will truly be over for them when it comes to competetiveness.

There are very few armies that depend completely upon power weapons (I'm not convinced there are actually any that depend at least 50-100% upon them). Not to mention lightning claws count as power weapons, not power fists.

It'd nerf some armies, buff some, space marines are noticeable what with being at least half the group.

To be honest, it's kinda needed, 2+ armor is on it's own, completely worthless (Good example, Mega-Nobz). With this change we might finally see 2+ units that aren't just assault terminators or anything with a 3++ save.

I for one fear the power of a necron lord retinue, 3 of them with an overlord for about 300 points, each with 2+, MSS, and warscythe? That will put the fear of the Necrons into the heart of any elite based assault unit.

I'm not keen on this AP3 idea in isolation but it will be one rule of many when 6th hits if it's true and it may well balance out. My only hope is that we don't see only armour 2 troopers and nothing else on the field of battle and with GW now squeezing fliers into the mix, players will have to find some way of accommodating them and whatever units they need to counter them. If transports also take a nerf, then it's going to be very hard to justify taking any kind of unit with a crappy armour save, especially for armies that can't spam hundreds of models like orks or nids to try to mitigate the chance of losses.

My Repentia just got a whole lot better LOL.

Spidey0804 wrote:My Repentia just got a whole lot better LOL.

No they didn't. They will work exactly as they did before except against vehicles (unless rules for the damage chart change). Repentia are still crappy IMO, but they are the only infantry unit in the codex that carries something more powerful than a Str 3 attack in CC. if they didn't have Rage they might be worth it.




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ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are very few armies that depend completely upon power weapons (I'm not convinced there are actually any that depend at least 50-100% upon them). Not to mention lightning claws count as power weapons, not power fists.

It'd nerf some armies, buff some, space marines are noticeable what with being at least half the group.

To be honest, it's kinda needed, 2+ armor is on it's own, completely worthless (Good example, Mega-Nobz). With this change we might finally see 2+ units that aren't just assault terminators or anything with a 3++ save.

I for one fear the power of a necron lord retinue, 3 of them with an overlord for about 300 points, each with 2+, MSS, and warscythe? That will put the fear of the Necrons into the heart of any elite based assault unit.

2+ armor save is already good on its own. Not every army has units full of power weapons or a crapload fo AP 2 shhoting weapons. Sisters lack those things for sure. Evsicerators are not the answer people think they are. They are slow weapons and are too expensive (it cost more than a Repentia to take as an add-on) and a stupid move to take on any of the codex's IC's. Who wants a badly armored low Toughness IC (and without eternal warrior to boot) that strikes at initiative 1? As I said though I can't see how this is not a nerf to Sisters unless they get a buff to shooting. They have S 3 power weapons, the random eviscerator, or a close combat weapon. That's it. Oh and i thougth Lightning Claws were going to be AP 2 according to the rumors.

Only a unit of Repentia could capitalize on them, but they are not durable agsint even the humble lasgun. A guard squad of equal cost will pound them flat before they get anywhere. Nor do the Repentia have a vehicle to get them to where they need to be that has an assualt ramp so they can't race up and assault someone they choose unless you hodl them in reserve. They are kind of lackluster for the points 10 models cost. For nearly the same amount of points I can field 5 death company with power swords and botl pistols and they will be nearly as killy and not strike last and can take a transport of their own.

Sisters lack those things for sure.

Rending Heavy Bolters, AP1 D6 S8 missiles, tons of melta, I have an SoB army I occasionally play, the day I rely on power weapons (With the exception of my nicely under-costed Uriah Bomb squad), is pretty much nil, I also use repentia myself, but it's mostly a fluffy choice. Yes one lacks decent power weapons otherwise in this army, but let's honestly face it, with the removal of the better powers from the old Witch Hunters dex they've lost any capability outside of the Conclave squads to do melee in any sort of manageable fashion. For example, the horrid Celestians, which are as expensive as the Chaos Space Marine unit and supposed to be our "elite melee SoB unit", which is already bad enough given costs, but it's still with the standard Sisters of Battle Statline Oh goody it can buff itself up to S4!

The SoB mini-dex is not something I try to count in balance anymore, it's got so many horrible decisions and costs in it that I try to ignore it unless I actively feel the need to play it.

Oh and i thought Lightning Claws were going to be AP 2 according to the rumors.

There was someone who posted up what he "THINKS" might happen, not according to the actual rumors.

So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.

Anyway, I think if this does get into the BrB then we are going to be seeing a lot more 2+ saves on the battlefields of the 41st millenium. Not necessarily an increase of PF and CF and the like but an increase in number of termies and their equivalents. It may become standard to see squads of 10 instead of 5. A very shrewd marketing move by GW perhaps?

I don't mind this change - terminator armour is supposed to be the best save anyway. The important thing is that tyranid boneswords are NOT power weapons they just ignore armour saves which makes me so happy. I would be very unimpressed if my bonesword/lashwhip warriors suddenly weren't able to eat anything short of a dreadnought in combat. Sorry terminators you still strike after me and are still doomed to die.

So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.

Unlike tau they are still competitive..It's just you have a very, very limited build, it's like being updated made them a 4th edition dex rather than a 5th.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.

Unlike tau they are still competitive..It's just you have a very, very limited build, it's like being updated made them a 4th edition dex rather than a 5th.

This, the sisters can be nasty, but if you stray from a very set in stone build you are probably going to crumble like a house of cards. Emperor help you if the other guy's tailoring.

The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

If it wasn't 4th Edition...

Fish o' Fury and Falcon Spam anyone?

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

If it wasn't 4th Edition...

Fish o' Fury and Falcon Spam anyone?

4th edition was good for the 4th edition dex's, to say the least, both got hit hard when skimmers and glancing stopped working well.

It seems to me that most people talking about 2+ armor assume if you don't have powerfists or AP2, they are invincible.

Ask an Ork or Nid player how they take care of 2+ armor. Make them take 15 saves, they're going to fail a few.

If you are taking power weapons specifically to take out 2+ armor, you'll just have to change your lists to more Dakka. Throw out tons of 4, 5 str wounds and make them roll dice.

That is one possable effect. Shift the meta towards more shooting to deal with 2+ armor.

2+ armor gets better in an assault, and as a result people gravitate towards what has always been its weakness(rolling lots of saves)

acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

Orks have aged beautifully. You can run battlewagon brigade, kanwall, tide, and speed freaks all to decent effect.

loota boy wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

Orks have aged beautifully. You can run battlewagon brigade, kanwall, tide, and speed freaks all to decent effect.

Got to agree, my next army is going to Ork's. I miss the more characterful days of 2nd edition, I always liked all the different clans especially the bad moons, unfortunately orks seem more generic now.

I also agree on the forcing as many saves as possible, on 2+ armour. Some armies can chuck out alot of lower level firepower (I'm thinking guard with Front rank fire, second rank fire). But one of the problems with this is that you are diverting your firepower and it is often inefficient use of this firepower that means other parts of the enemy army are unscathed as you try to pound Chaos terminators or Obliterators or whatever. Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.

Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.

AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.