Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kain wrote:I sincerely hope that monstrous creatures become AP1 since they more or less function as if they had chainfists, nothing would frustrate me more than my Trygons suddenly being incapable of touching meganobz and terminators. Plus, being AP1 means that vehicles would become easier to crack.

Chainfists make you Initiative 1.

I primarily meant the added penetration dice. That and MCs have been so repeatedly shafted by 5e that I just kind of hope they get tossed a bone in 6e. Even if it's as small as getting a +1 bonus to vehicle damage rolls.

kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?

Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar, though there are for DE, BA, SM and CSM.

juraigamer wrote:

kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?

Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar, though there are for DE, BA, SM and CSM.

Perhaps the wielder could choose to use it as a one-handed or two-handed weapon in CC (Like elven blades in LoTR)

Seriously this is a bad Idea it means prettymuch anything going against draigo wing or Deathwing is up a creek of feces with no paddle.

the only army that can have powerweapons evrywhere is gk if you wann fix the problem NERF THEM.

Arschbombe wrote:What about rending? Is that going to remain AP2?

I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.

Well Necron Lords have finally become useful as a Retinue!

Hmm, about three, with weave, warscythes, and MSS count about 225, that'd be a painful thing for most elite units to fight.

I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.

It's AP2

Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar,

The two Handed Executioner for the Exarch Banshee are calling, along with striking scorpions biting blade.

I feel this is all silly till we see the rest of the assault rules though, something seen in a vacuum will never look to good.

And considering everyone uses banshee's as an example..They suck now! Why would they be a good example of xeno's getting nerfed?

Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar

May want to check again, the banshee exarch's executioner is a two handed power weapon. And the scorpions exarch's biting blade is 2 handed, though not a PW. If the act of being two handed would simply add 1 to the ap of a weapon, would achieve the desired effect for relic blades and the like, it could open up more options in some codexes. Don't ork have or used to have 2 handed choppas for nobs, don't have the codex but vaguely remember something like it?

edit: ninja'ed

Random thought. The 40 points for Armored shell (2+ save) on a Hive Tyrant makes more sense in this scheme than it does now.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.

TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison-- when you no longer have to worry about power weapons, exchanging your storm shield for a storm bolter and the opportunity to take Cyclone launchers or Assault Cannons may in fact be worth it, whereas now it's usually a risky move at best because normal Terminators are very vulnerable to assault units that can use power weapons to kill them before they get a chance to swing their power fists.

DarbNilbirts wrote:

Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar

May want to check again, the banshee exarch's executioner is a two handed power weapon. And the scorpions exarch's biting blade is 2 handed, though not a PW. If the act of being two handed would simply add 1 to the ap of a weapon, would achieve the desired effect for relic blades and the like, it could open up more options in some codexes. Don't ork have or used to have 2 handed choppas for nobs, don't have the codex but vaguely remember something like it?

edit: ninja'ed

Yup, we get the big choppa, a 5 point upgrade that adds 2 points to strength. It isn't a powerweapon though, so you'd just get to ignore 6+ saves. That's sorta nice I guess.. But if I have to pay extra for it, i'm gunna be pissed.

40 point Lychguard and Praetorians would make so much more sense.

Marines become more durable, every other army suffers for it.

Seems fair.

More than just marines have 3+ armor saves.. It helps a large number of armies as most armies have a few 3+ units

There should have always been a distinction between the types of power attacks, like there is with shooting weapons. Imagine if all weapons we were either AP - or AP2, thats how it is with CC weapons

I don't understand the folks who say that it makes marines more powerful, and nerfs everyone else. From a Tyranid standpoint, i say go for it!

We don't have "power" weapons, we have weapons that ignore armor. Boneswords ignore armor, Rending is AP 2 (still goes through terminators just as easy as before), and monstrous creatures ignore armor. Of course, the other Xenos way to make terminators die is to make them roll lots, and lots of saves (devilgants out of a pod anyone? 20 toxin/adrenal hormies?). Don't get your panties in a bundle, terminators can still die, just alter your tactics a bit.

Read your Necron codex if you have one. Warscythes "don't allow armor saves", but voidblades, if I'm not mistaken, count as power weapons. GW is making a distinction between what is a power weapon, and what ignores armor in a new codex...I'm guessing there's a reason for this.

Power weapons? What are those? I play orks. Long live the power klaw!

DarkCorsair wrote:40 point Lychguard and Praetorians would make so much more sense.

Those are 3+ armor saves, have fun with that.

As I said before though, Necron Lords with weave become far more useful in squads and as a retinue for a walker overlord. Three with MSS/scythe/weave with an overlord will put the hurt out on most elite units now.

Marines become more durable, every other army suffers for it.

Seems fair.

Because only marines have 2+! Nobody else has power fists! Nobody else has ap2 ranged weapons! *Sarcasm*

Hell nobody knows what the AP value for xeno's specific weapons will become. (Eviscerators better be counted as AP1 too damnit)

Random thought. The 40 points for Armored shell (2+ save) on a Hive Tyrant makes more sense in this scheme than it does now.

Nope, still crappy, overlords get it for 15 points, lords 20.

Kirasu wrote:More than just marines have 3+ armor saves.. It helps a large number of armies as most armies have a few 3+ units

There should have always been a distinction between the types of power attacks, like there is with shooting weapons. Imagine if all weapons we were either AP - or AP2, thats how it is with CC weapons

But the power weapon change does nothing to 3+ armour saves. It does however a lot to 2+ saves which is most prevalent in SM's books. There is almost no used HQ without 2+. Terminator units are not uncommon sight in current edition.
How many xenos have such abundance of 2+ saves? If power fists will be AP2 and chainfists AP1, how many xenos have 2+ saves, power fists and chainfists? How many have two of those things? Orks can have them but otherwise it's a rare sight in non-SMs.

Also, buffing a unit slightly less than a similar unit is DEFINITELY not nerfing. Don't be ridiculous.

This doesn't benefit the 3+ saves, since basic power weapons are AP 3 in this ruleset and ignore it anyways. This benefits armies who can field lots of 2+ armor, because suddenly it's only power fists and chain fists and the like that they need to worry about penetrating their armor.

This benefits marines over other armies for two very big reasons. One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies. Especially the likes of Grey Knights and Dark Angels. Other armies cannot field it in the same numbers, and/or pay a high premium for such protection. Two; Who has the ability to pack a power fist in every single squad if they so choose? That'd be the space marine armies again. The orks are the only notable exception to this, but considering that you're still only fielding 3-4 mobs of boyz with one power fist each, and then maybe a couple more power fists scattered throughout your army, you're not fielding them in the same number as a marine player who has them on every tac squad.

So 2+ armor becomes infinitely better, which the marines get the most of, and is only counterable by weapons that only marines can get their hands on in suitable numbers.

This does not benefit any army other than marines. Plain and simple. It might be a minor blessing for armies who have rare units with a 2+ save, but it is an incredibly incredibly potent buff for armies that do not need to be buffed.

So 2+ armor becomes infinitely better, which the marines get the most of, and is only counterable by weapons that only marines can get their hands on in suitable numbers.

Gee I wonder when AP2 ranged weapons went out of style.

The orks are the only notable exception to this, but considering that you're still only fielding 3-4 mobs of boyz with one power fist each, and then maybe a couple more power fists scattered throughout your army,

As an ork player, what? We pack them on nobz, on bosses, on big meks, on every single nob upgrade in the army!

Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.

Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.

kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?

Warscythes, and them things are filfth

juraigamer wrote:

Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.

Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.

Never mind that it costs over 2500 points of course..

If this is the case then my crushers just lost all hope of killing termies -_-
Daemons struggle with AV14 as it is, now we have to compete with 2+ saves we cant negate?
This i am not liking

juraigamer wrote:

Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.

Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.

48 mega nobs = 1920 points thats without the warbosses or the battlewagons

Daemons struggle with AV14 as it is, now we have to compete with 2+ saves we cant negate?

Rending is AP2. You have plenty of units that have that (Take fiends, seekers), along with MC's, not to mention armor negating flamers, oh and bolt of change, since one shot will equal it's points back against 2+ at their cost

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Gee I wonder when AP2 ranged weapons went out of style.

Awww, aren't you cute. Trying to bring an irrelevant point into this topic!

Yeah, AP 2 shooting still exists.

But one of the few threats to 2+armor up and vanishes.

How is this not a buff? I mean. Can you please explain to me how taking away one of maybe... three ways (I can think of at least off the top of my head, AP 2 or better ranged weapons, power weapons, dangerous terrain) to deny a 2+ save isn't a buff to the 2+ save?

I mean it seems pretty clear to me. Like. Basic logic.

As an ork player, what? We pack them on nobz, on bosses, on big meks, on every single nob upgrade in the army!

Right, yeah. So if you're doing green tide, and let's say you're just going fething balls out. Take 6 full mobs of boyz. That's... 6 power klawz.

One more for your HQ choice.

Woo.

Hurray.

Six.

You can get that many power fists in a single unit of shooty terminators.

Then three more in tactical squads.

Then throw one on a captain because we're not taking a librarian for some reason.

Then... I dunno. Vanguard vet squad of nothing but power fists. Why not?

Throw some on our devastators too.

And our bike squads.

And... The list goes on, you see. Now, yes, I am being hyperbolic and silly, but you were making... a silly point to begin with. I very clearly said that Orkz can take power fists, just not in the same quantity as marines.

So you... agreed with me? Or... did you disagree?

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

Rending: Nice, but the units with it are very fragile, which is why i leave my khornate units to armour hunting.

MC's are nice, but cant zilla a list while keeping it to a reasonable standard.

Bolt is nice though however, i'll give you that one.


Just seems to turn daemons on thier heads for unit choices.
My horde killers (nettes and seekers) will now become my armour hunters too?
Not a nice thought when a stiff breeze kills them.


Also, i usually run a pure khorne army, so this may be a real issue now.

juraigamer wrote:

Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.

Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.

Well for one thing, that list would run you about 2410 points before upgrades.

Second, normal power weapons never bugged meganobs because they had two wounds anyway. The thing that hurts them the most, powerfists, are still AP 2

Fetterkey wrote:TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison

Nerfing troops by keeping them the same but making other stuff better...

Must be nice to be a marine

biccat wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison

Nerfing troops by keeping them the same but making other stuff better...

Must be nice to be a marine

Cannot exalt this enough.