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Might just switch to a mono tzeentch army now
Make the most of the better ++ saves and just blast armies apart.
Mass bolt and breath should be ok.

But one of the few threats to 2+armor up and vanishes.

Yes pretty much, but I prefer not to look at things in a vacuum (Hard to do, without the rest of the changes), and see how much else people can pack into their lists, I also judge lists by how much AP 1/2 they can pack into a standard competitive list.

Right, yeah. So if you're doing green tide, and let's say you're just going fething balls out. Take 6 full mobs of boyz. That's... 6 power klawz.

And if you take two sets of 3 nobz with 3 PK's along with 2 big meks with KFF, you get 14 since your past the 1500 mark and hitting 2000

Course this isn't exactly a list I would use to pack in alot of fists to be honest. Green tide is more about numbers of shots along with a ton of rokkits added in by KFF making everything have a save, so they'll still rely mostly on tons of A2 shoota's making 2+ saves fail by number alone still.

Sure you can pack a ton more into a marine list, to me it just means I can finally have people stop questioning my use of a Shokk Attack Gun when I use it if people start taking TEQ heavy lists

So you... agreed with me? Or... did you disagree?

I agreed that space marines can pack more fists, technically, course it doesn't make them better as a result for it.

Also, i usually run a pure khorne army, so this may be a real issue now.

Yeah I know that feeling, I used to run CD lists too, but it's not like they havn't been terribly effective before, (4th wasn't kind with its auto death deepstrikes, 5th's mech, and 6th's potential to ruin hellblades and all that..) It's just a pretty poorly done codex.

Just a quick note, but while marines can take more fists, orks are multi-wound and have more attacks with them, which i would value higher




Havent had a real issue with my khorne daemons unless i get quaked to death, other than that i dont have all that many issues.
However, i use crushers to deal with termies and the likes (mainly paladins now)
This is a real kick in the teeth.

Jackal wrote:Might just switch to a mono tzeentch army now
Make the most of the better ++ saves and just blast armies apart.
Mass bolt and breath should be ok.

Buff troops by making everything else in the army worse?

Must suck to be chaos.

Placing AP on certain combat weapons would really shake up the dynamics of the assault phase but also would make it more complex for the new kids to learn (which is their target market). I think GW would be silly to change.

So you agree that 2+ saves become more durable by eliminating one of the ways of negating them, and you agree that MEQ armies will have (if this ruleset goes through) the most of the only weapons that can deny that 2+ save in close combat.

Which is, very clearly a buff to MEQ armies. Probably the armies who least need a buff. Save for CSM, who are suffering from codex creep at the moment and Black Templars to a lesser extent.

What are we disagreeing about then? Only point I was making was that this is a major buff for marine armies, a minor buff for some other armies and a major nerf for the others who do not have access to power fists or their equivalents.

I sincerely hope this change does not come to fruition as described. I'm okay with weapons getting an AP value, but the way it is outlined here? Absolutely ridiculous and dangerously unbalancing. I'm not normally the type to cry out in alarm over a proposed game change because it's usually not as bad as it seems... This, on the other hand, is just a horrendous tweak to game balance.

What are we disagreeing about then? Only point I was making was that this is a major buff for marine armies, a minor buff for some other armies and a major nerf for the others who do not have access to power fists or their equivalents.

I'm really just saying this is not as big a deal as people are making this out to be, at least IMO. Till we see all the combined actual rule changes from 6th (yeah yeah, speculation and all that) .

The point I was trying to make was that the armies with the least amount of power fists, never really needed it, not all armies exist to have the same variety of weapons and having the same loadouts as each other (barring marines anyways)

I mean, can you tell me what armies will be hit hardest by this change?

ash1986 wrote:Placing AP on certain combat weapons would really shake up the dynamics of the assault phase but also would make it more complex for the new kids to learn (which is their target market). I think GW would be silly to change.

It also screws over non meq armies who would often lose their already bad armour save ( a 1/2, 1/3 or 1/6 chance is better than no save at all ).

Lokas wrote:I sincerely hope this change does not come to fruition as described. I'm okay with weapons getting an AP value, but the way it is outlined here? Absolutely ridiculous and dangerously unbalancing. I'm not normally the type to cry out in alarm over a proposed game change because it's usually not as bad as it seems... This, on the other hand, is just a horrendous tweak to game balance.

This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...

Meganobz and both kinds of Terminators would become crazy-good against Draigowing. The Paladins would no longer ignore armour, after all.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm really just saying this is not as big a deal as people are making this out to be, at least IMO. Till we see all the combined actual rule changes from 6th (yeah yeah, speculation and all that) .

The point I was trying to make was that the armies with the least amount of power fists, never really needed it, not all armies exist to have the same variety of weapons and having the same loadouts as each other (barring marines anyways)

I mean, can you tell me what armies will be hit hardest by this change?

I want to say Dark Eldar, and that may be because I am a Dark Eldar player but lemme elaborate.

We already have plenty of AP 2 ranged weapons. Hell, I was fiddling around earlier with a 1500 point tourney list and managed to pack 24 blasters/lances into the list. It was a little silly. This would not change. However, not all DE armies are shooty. Wych cults, Haemonculus covens, Webway Portal lists... All of these would be hit very hard by this change.

Not a single unit in our army has access to a power fist or its equivalent, which at the moment is fine because we have power weapons to deal with TEQ in close combat. We have agonisers we have klaives, we can handle terminators in the assault phase. If the change, as proposed in this thread, goes through, that will no longer happen. Agonisers will be AP 3 as they are only power weapons. So will Klaives. Dark Eldar are not orks, we do not have weight of attacks to drown terminators in saves in close combat. The only access we would have to AP 2 close combat weapons would be razorwing flocks. It would basically relegate the Dark Eldar army to 'you have to be a shooty army, or you're going to lose against 5 man terminator squads all the time every time.'

In other words, this single change would kill every build that isn't venomspam for Dark Eldar. For once, I'm not exaggerating for effect or delving in hyperbole, I'm being quite literal. TEQ armies would become more prevalent due to this change, although I wouldn't say that every army is going to be TEQ, no. However, an army stops being competitive when there are builds out there that it cannot handle. If there is a hard counter to your army list, you don't wanna bring it to a tournament because one player with that army list is going to instant-win. Any army that isn't a darklight storm, that is assault-oriented for the DE will now have a hard counter to it. They will be unable to deal with armies that pack multiple squads of terminators or similar 2+ save models.

So yeah, it'd hit my army pretty freaking hard. Now, maybe there are other armies out there it'd hit harder, but I can't imagine how it gets worse than relegating your entire army to a single list archetype.

This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...

Bloodcrushers and letters.

Jackal wrote:

This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...

Bloodcrushers and letters.

Agonisers, lightning claws, warscythes (depending on whether or not two handed weapons are AP 2), the phase swords on sword n' board lychguard...

Okay, just trying to get this sorted out in my mind.

1 Handed Power Weapons: AP 3
Power Fists (and maybe 2 handed power weapons and Rending): AP 2
Chain Fists (and maybe Monstrous creatures and other things that roll 2D6 for penetration): AP 1

Interesting.

This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

The way I'd much rather see this working is have each individual weapon given a profile like a ranged weapon, complete with an AP value and any special rules such as lightning claw rerolls.

It would streamline rules a bit more than trying to remember which broad type of weapon has what AP values and which of those categories any given weapon fits into, since you could simply consult the profile like you would a ranged weapon. Plus then the AP value system would be universal for shooting and assaulting, making rules a bit simpler there as well.

The big issue is that it makes anything with a 2+ save just that much better while simultaneously damaging the units currently designed to take out 2+ saves. But then again we wont know until its published.

Lightcavalier wrote:The big issue is that it makes anything with a 2+ save just that much better while simultaneously damaging the units currently designed to take out 2+ saves. But then again we wont know until its published.

That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.

Or takes assault terminators.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.

It's AP2

Why do you say that?

Macok wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.

Uh... you're right, they don't.

Captains are generally considered bad except in bike armies and generally don't get artificer armor when they do get taken, and people only take Terminator Armor on Librarians for the 3++ storm shield option-- even then, the standard "naked" Librarian is more common in competitive SM armies. Terminator Captains and Chaplains are almost objectively bad. Do you play SM?

Of the units with base 2+ saves (Honor Guard, "Tactical" Terminators, Assault Terminators), the only one that gets fielded in competitive armies is Assault Terminators (and almost universally TH/SS Terminators), who have a 3++ to mitigate their weakness to power weapons.

Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

That... That sounds awful... Why even have a 6+ save? Why would claws and teeth be able to chew through armor better than lasguns, which are supposed to be better then modern firearms? Why do we need to buff CC? I love CC, don't get me wrong, but this edition already has plenty of CC, and guess what, it seems like it's doing fine on its own. I really, really hope this won't happen..

I have an idea!

Lets get all worked up over a rule set we havent even seen yet!

Lokas wrote:Or takes assault terminators.

Nobody takes assault terminators for 2+, it's the 3++

I remember before 4th came out and the Internet declared that CC armies were doomed because you couldn't assault out of Rhinos or Wave Serpents anymore and how they were doomed for real before 5th because you couldn't consolidate into a new combat anymore. We know even less about 6th than we did 4th and 5th before they came out, I'd say it's safe to say we have nothing like a clear picture yet. Personally, I'll worry about the new rules when I actually see them rather than being all Chicken Little over a handful of vague half rumors that may or may not be true.

I honestly think that the giveing ap values to cc waepons is a good idea makeing the assault phase more elagant and more interesting. I think it will change everything and with that being said I think we all need to keep in mind that we may not be seeing the big picture there may be all sorts of little rules here that could help armies that dont have access to alot of AP2 power weapons whon knows since eldar are supe advanced and since rumore has it we will be able to use pistols in CC some of your pistols may end up being AP2 in CC, can't truly make a judgement on this yet, but I do think GW is going in the right direction if they give it all AP values.

Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

I wouldn't mind this except for the basic combat weapons being AP6. As loota boy said, if a vest can stop a lasgun 1/6 of the time, it should be able to stop a claw or knife.

Rest looks reasonable though. I'd play with it and see how it goes.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

I wouldn't mind this except for the basic combat weapons being AP6. As loota boy said, if a vest can stop a lasgun 1/6 of the time, it should be able to stop a claw or knife.

Rest looks reasonable though. I'd play with it and see how it goes.

DoW

Thunderhammers I think would make more sense as an AP2 weapon, I just don't see it as a dedicated tank popping weapon. But that just may be me.

Blacksails wrote:I have an idea!

Lets get all worked up over a rule set we havent even seen yet!

Brilliant!

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

Translation: Orks & SM pwn lightly armored troops.

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Translation: feth you Eldar.

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Translation: make Terminators better

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2
Translation: Only MEQ can kill terminators

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

Translation: Finally a reason to take chainfists! Time to buy more terminators everyone!