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biccat wrote:

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

Great White wrote:I don't like really like the idea. For a while( Maybe since the beggining I didn't play then, so I don't know) PW have been able to ignore all armor. So why change it? We have all come to know it as ignore armour, that's why we take power weapons.

Because it makes rending stupidly mediocre. Everyone an their brother have power weapons now, for what, 10 points? That tiny little sword on the commish? Yeah it ignores a MC's armor save....whaaaaa? Honestly AP 3 would be great as long as chaos gets their 2+ armor back. (But Chaos sucking is another matter altogether...)

There are a few things on the list that I don't really agree with either. I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...), and I agree with the earlier comments about 6+ saves. That said, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Overall, though, I do like the idea of putting the AP system into close combat as well as shooting, as well as giving 2+ save units a much needed buff. So color me optimistic on this one.

Well I'm happy since the Phoenix Lords and Drazhar just became viable again.

If this happens, how remarkable that the 5e starter had tactical Termies, and I'll bet the 6e set won't.

I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...

Where do you see a DCCW as one?

here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out

This would actually benefit Orks tremendously. Orks use Power Fists almost exclusively, there literally is not a dedicated Power Weapon in the entire Codex. Assuming you still need AP2 to defeat Feel No Pain, that means Nobs gain some tremendous survivability and Meganobz may become viable.

All for no loss in offensive power.

Why even have a 6+ save? Why would claws and teeth be able to chew through armor better than lasguns

I see this as the same reasoning why you hit rear armor in close combat. They don't run around and smack the back, the are close enough to see weak points/armor seams/ viewpoints and hatches and aim for them. Up close and personal it would be common sense to swing at the parts of the body not covered by the one shoulder plate or helmet that is required for a 6+ while at range you are just trying to hit dot in the distance.

spaceXjam wrote:
AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

Sauce please but regardless, that sounds highly unlikely.

Personally I liked the 5++ for power swords.

spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out

Lightning claws striking I1 and S10? Doubtful to the utmost.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...

Where do you see a DCCW as one?

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out

So then nobody will ever take a PF again? Because according to you, Lightning Claws do everything that a PF can, AND get to re-roll misses.

So maybe then LC will be Ap3? I said it in the other thread but this one stole the thunder. Look at the necron codex, its written for 6th. Why does the warscythe say "no armor saves allowed" instead of "ignores armor"? Why does Mr "im the greatest necron fighter" not have anything other than a 2+ for 165 pts? Why are invuls so incredibly expensive and only two necron characters come with them? I think this all point toward CC have AP

So an AP3 PW? I find that interesting, but how would that work with a RELIC BLADE? Or will these be dropped? Will a RB be AP2 or AP1? It confers extra strength at the moment, but it's a bit crazy as it will become broken if we take that 6th Ed will institute what the OP said (a leap of faith I know!).

EDIT - IMHO Close Combat will be much more vicious, the days of Tarpitting a unit with a Tactical squad for 2-3 turns will be gone, and the reason I say this is because of the Defensive fire rumours I have heard. If you charge a Marine Tac Squad, they will make you pay before you hit them (although I have heard it's BS 2 so hitting on 6's, that said with 10 Bolters you are looking at least 1 model hit on the way in and more if you are lucky with your rolling). So to balance this shooting edge, I think combat will be upped a bit. Grey Hunters will no doubt, still be the best Troops in the game after 6th edition!

Fetterkey wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...

Where do you see a DCCW as one?

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

That's not the rumor he was guessing!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...

I must say that's not unreasonable, an Ironclad with a Siesmic Hammer would rip apart an Open Top vehicle. I mean seriously, this is a dedicated siege engine and assault breacher going up against a "Convertable". It would be obliterated! The Iron clad would just leap on it, Hulk style and crush it. Or slam it like a Lineback hitting a quarterback either way the vehicle has a slim chance of surviving.

OT I would love to see a Slam Charge from a Dreadnought, it should be able to shoulder barge and body slam, units. Peoples elbow from a Contemptor anyone?

As to the credibility of spaceXjam's post:

spaceXjam wrote:i have just reosrted to stealing alot of my stuff from gamesworkshop stores i stole a whole battleforce. i brought one and had the recipet then had my friend walk past the front door gave it to him and then i picked another one of the shelf quickly and just walked out if they had asked me i had my recipet.. but i talked to the guys working for like 20 mins to sell myself as a genuine dude... yeah lol stolen heaps of blisters to i have like 5 lord creeds and kells i sold them on ebay for 99 cents haha

Sounds like the kinda guy who'd be deep into the GW design department. Seems legit.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

biccat wrote:

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

Not to mention Claws and Teeth is the Tyranid basic CCW.

Makes me wonder if Scything Talons will go AP5.

I'd be delighted to see close assault weapons given an AP value; of course I'd rather see this AP nonsense thrown out and save modifiers returned to the rules. It's worth pointing out that Terminators without storm shields are a bit rubbish right now, thanks to the prevalence of plasma and power weapons; I'd be perfectly happy to accept a steep rise in cost for AV2 units if it brought their battlefield effectiveness closer to that attributed to them in the fluff.

Yup, 250 points for high Damage, highly survivable termie unit would not be too bad. Although it might stop "LR + Termie" kerb stomping when the hold shebang comes in at 500pts without upgrades!!!

But yeah, Termies without SS are Cannon fodder.

I really like the idea of this move towards proper weapon statlines for close combat weapons. It really opens up some great possibilities for variation between them, IMHO.

Can't wait for this time next month.

I must say that's not unreasonable, an Ironclad with a Siesmic Hammer would rip apart an Open Top vehicle. I mean seriously, this is a dedicated siege engine and assault breacher going up against a "Convertable". It would be obliterated! The Iron clad would just leap on it, Hulk style and crush it. Or slam it like a Lineback hitting a quarterback either way the vehicle has a slim chance of surviving.

OT I would love to see a Slam Charge from a Dreadnought, it should be able to shoulder barge and body slam, units. Peoples elbow from a Contemptor anyone?

Not my quote for note. I just was telling him that the quote was from someone thinking of what AP values would be attached to things.

I guess it would make sense though, since otherwise the seismic hammer would be equal to the DCCW chainfist

spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:

I stopped reading at Lightning claws going on I1 and P10. I'm not buying that, man.

htj wrote:As to the credibility of spaceXjam's post:

spaceXjam wrote:i have just reosrted to stealing alot of my stuff from gamesworkshop stores i stole a whole battleforce. i brought one and had the recipet then had my friend walk past the front door gave it to him and then i picked another one of the shelf quickly and just walked out if they had asked me i had my recipet.. but i talked to the guys working for like 20 mins to sell myself as a genuine dude... yeah lol stolen heaps of blisters to i have like 5 lord creeds and kells i sold them on ebay for 99 cents haha

Sounds like the kinda guy who'd be deep into the GW design department. Seems legit.

Thanks for the heads up. What a thieving piece of gak.

DoW

Luke_Prowler wrote:

biccat wrote:

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

But who has 6+ armor? Not much. And if all CCW are automatically AP 6, then 6+ armor is effectively worthless (moreso than it already is). What types of weapons remain that are AP -? Lasguns and maybe some nid ranged weapons?

Shotguns are AP - aren't they?

biccat wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:

biccat wrote:

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

But who has 6+ armor? Not much. And if all CCW are automatically AP 6, then 6+ armor is effectively worthless (moreso than it already is). What types of weapons remain that are AP -? Lasguns and maybe some nid ranged weapons?

The solution to that would be to start at AP- for CCWs, laspistols, autopistols, etc., then make better weapons (1pt chainswords?) AP6. The stumbling block, of course, is that bolt pistols would have to be AP5, which makes it rather difficult to construct an evenly-distributed hierarchy. It's worth pointing out that ranged weapons suffer from the same problem of clustering around certain values: almost no weapons but krak missiles are AP3, while there are oodles at AP2 and AP4. It has annoyed me for years that pretty much all weapons that are good for killing bog-standard Marines are equally good for killing Terminators, which removes the necessity for tactical choices in a game which should instead make them important.

I have found it odd that there is very little beyond Krak missiles and IG ordinance thats AP3. There needs to be more AP3 out there.

I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.