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Grey Templar wrote:Probably still just "No armor saves allowed" like they are now.

Okay, thanks.

KingDeath wrote:It is an unnecessary spacemarine buff.

Agreed. But the other rumor is that a squad that gets charged will get to shoot at the assaulting unit before the CC happens. That could (maybe?) help balance this a little bit.

AP values for close combat weapons are almost as bad. Marines are more or less save, not much will change for them. Orks and other thinly armoured cc units might lose their entire armoursave. One could argue that losing a 5+ or a 6+ save isn't that much, but 33%/ 16% more casualties in cc for the affected units is a definitive and most unwelcome nerf.

Agreed again. If something as common and benign as say a chainsword suddenly becomes AP5, then that's a HUGE nerf to swarm armies like Orks and Nids. But is that really going to happen? Because now every MEQ player is going to have to chop up their marines to add / remove the chainswords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.

If anything, it makes the storm shields less necessary in CC.

Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.

Fetterkey wrote:
TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison-- when you no longer have to worry about power weapons, exchanging your storm shield for a storm bolter and the opportunity to take Cyclone launchers or Assault Cannons may in fact be worth it, whereas now it's usually a risky move at best because normal Terminators are very vulnerable to assault units that can use power weapons to kill them before they get a chance to swing their power fists.

That's not a "nerf". The terminators all get better whether they are armed with TH/SS or with SB/PF. I think what you meant is that now you have to buy more minis to make more termies with the "better" options. My advice ... magnets.

Gorechild wrote:Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.

Alot of that stuff seems to be from the Heritichammer edition that was claimed to be false...How true can one claim it to be now? Because if this is true...

When you shoot you roll to hit depending on the speed of your target. Fast vehicles you always need a 6.

Because if true, I need to hide a few friends BA tanks...

I have to disagree with you there labmouse42, I tend to find it is more common for troop units to have power weapons on their leaders than power fists, this is because troop units tend to be aimed at shooting rather than assault. Power fists tend to end up in assault orientated units. As an example assault squads with PFs and tactical squads with PWs. I know that there are armies that are exceptions to this, but that is because those armies are largely assault orientated over shooting. This, however, is all relative to what happens in the new BrB. If they have differing AP values then its likely that PFs will become more common than PWs as their combat value would be diminished. The idea behind power anything is to deal with armour in close combat, reducing its effectiveness will just increase armour survivability in cc. Not something that needs to change that much imo.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I have to disagree with you there labmouse42, I tend to find it is more common for troop units to have power weapons on their leaders than power fists, this is because troop units tend to be aimed at shooting rather than assault. Power fists tend to end up in assault orientated units. As an example assault squads with PFs and tactical squads with PWs. I know that there are armies that are exceptions to this, but that is because those armies are largely assault orientated over shooting. This, however, is all relative to what happens in the new BrB. If they have differing AP values then its likely that PFs will become more common than PWs as their combat value would be diminished. The idea behind power anything is to deal with armour in close combat, reducing its effectiveness will just increase armour survivability in cc. Not something that needs to change that much imo.

I have to disagree with you as well, I primarily see mostly powerfists for the S8 potential (Potential to escape assault walkers, instant kill IC's, 2+ on MC's) The AP2 potential is less viable than the strength of the weapon itself, and to keep strong things from trying to attack it. Power weapons tend to be seen only in area's where they cannot take otherwise (SoB for example)

How many PWs you see in TAC squads really depends on your meta, I guess.
Around here I see PFs or nothing at all in them. I almost never see PWs in squads here for MEQ.
That's not the case for for blob squads or DE of course

I think PF's will still be the optimal choice, for a S4 model. PW's are great and I cannot see a nerf coming for this, the current CC system is actually very good, I can see some changes to the dynamic prior to CC e.g nerfs or buffs to units prior to, on the or during the charge and the same for the unit receiving the charge. If it ain't broke, why change it? The Rapid fire, and Close Quarter Battle needs a re-think, but CC should stay the same. Shooting shouldn't be the thing that happens before you get to chop a unit to bits, the current dynamic in shooting is not representative of the firepower available in the 41st Millenium, where 20mm rapid fire rocket launchers are considered small arms.

Grey Templar wrote:

Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.

Draigo?

it makes anything with a SS fething annoying , Draigo's just an afterthought.

Storm shield army I love you.

I know that fluff cannot be translated to the table top in a lot of cases. However it as always bothered me how easily terminators can be dealt with be lots of armies. Terminators are the pinnacle of any SM chapter.

I just felt that a lot of times they are too squishy for their point cost. Especially when loaded in a Landraider.

Gorechild wrote:Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.

Also claims that shooting and assaulting has been reversed which contradicts what BoW has said. It'd be a matter of BoW's credibility VS that guy.
I feel like that guy JUST read the pancake edition and thinks its the real deal.

Regarding the default PF on sarges, its true that if you're going to upgrade your sergeant, 99 times out of 98, it's a powerfist BUT consider what challenges will do to that. A power sword sarge with 3 attacks is going to instant kill a powerfist sarge before he even gets to swing. A bit OT but that just came to mind since people were talking about PFs in squads.

So, to not get slaughtered in a challenge, you might take PW+Pistol instead of default PF which will leave you vulnerable to 2+ and no way to reliably pop vehicles or dreads.
I like it. No more obvious CC upgrade choice.

DogOfWar wrote:

Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.

Agreed.

And it's not like he's a walk in the park right now.

DoW

And god help you if he's in cover and has an apothecary. Enjoy getting past four saves.

Just thought of this ap3 PW = you get FNP save.......

labmouse42 wrote:How many PWs you see in TAC squads really depends on your meta, I guess.

Yes I suppose thats true, after all it depends on what your fighting with or likely to come up against that determines what weaponry you would take. Good point.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I have to disagree with you as well, I primarily see mostly powerfists for the S8 potential (Potential to escape assault walkers, instant kill IC's, 2+ on MC's) The AP2 potential is less viable than the strength of the weapon itself, and to keep strong things from trying to attack it. Power weapons tend to be seen only in area's where they cannot take otherwise (SoB for example)

I find it that the cheaper squad would have the cheaper option as they are ever so slightly more expendable, however, the reasons you listed to take a powerfist there do largely revolve around it being an AP2 weapon, would you still take one if it didn't have that AP? It would no longer have an effect on 2+ saves. The same as the proposed AP values for power weapons. Simply put a lot of things in 2+ armour have a PF, or race equivalent, as standard or as optional. And the most common counter to them was a PW striking before they did. The suggested changes would remove that altogether, meaning there would no longer be any quick solutions to defeat termies and the like.

After actually thinking about it over all you may be right about the numbers. I guess it depends on if you face a lot of horde or TEQ opponents as a PW would be the better counter to both of these situations. Alternatively if you face a lot more MEQ and MCs PF are the more logical choice.

I find it that the cheaper squad would have the cheaper option as they are ever so slightly more expendable, however, the reasons you listed to take a powerfist there do largely revolve around it being an AP2 weapon, would you still take one if it didn't have that AP? It would no longer have an effect on 2+ saves.

AP2 doesn't do much against walkers I find, though against MC's I guess it could work at least, but I mostly take it because at one time my meta in my area was saturated with a ton of walkers (meleenaughts, deffdreads and kans, and the like) getting tied up against one is quite annoying when I want some mobility to say the least, and the PF was a threat to keep them away from certain squads.

SickSix wrote:I know that fluff cannot be translated to the table top in a lot of cases. However it as always bothered me how easily terminators can be dealt with be lots of armies. Terminators are the pinnacle of any SM chapter.

I just felt that a lot of times they are too squishy for their point cost. Especially when loaded in a Landraider.

how? they are still space marines just in a fancy better suite of armor. they can take a lissile to the face and still live. the only way to really overrun them is ap1 / 2 fire (which should do it considering these are meant to oftem melt through tanks), mass amounss of high initiative power weapons (designed to slice through any armor like the tani tank ranged) or fists (see previous but add in doubling strength) which not alot of armies can pull off. the other way is mass fire/mass melee. it doesn't matter how tought they are. if it sinfantry and it gets charged by 30 orks w/ nob and pk somethign is going to hit a vital spot or anough hits to the same spot ... or just plain be overpowered down and stripped of the armor, or in mass fire cases a pwoer blob shoots 120 shots ... somthing is going to hit a vital point

I've fielded a blob of 10 termies in a blood angels army w/ a sang priest in terminator armor plus a librarian in tremy armor... they took forever to die but with enough lascannon

i've also seen a vanilla marines player field 10 assault termies w/ lysander. I beat em eventually with orks but it took 2 vollies of 30 boys and ghazthraka to do it and really only ghaz was still useful

* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.

Daemonhammer wrote:

* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.

Chainfists get 2d6 to pen a vehicle, so it makes sense they'd pierce better than a Power Fist (since they're a power fist + chainsaw).

Daemonhammer wrote:

* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.

Chain fists are designed to carve through the armour plates of battle tanks, how much more armour piercing do you get?

Well if this becomes a issue i can see this happening
space marines: Can i just suggest plasma pistols? really if pistols stay CCW then it's fairly easy to see that this is the answer to terminators in CC for some armies, i mean jump packs can take 3 of the buggers and get a I10 strike (which in the way it was worded wouldn't be at ap2) so they could force a lot of saves / stop them taking said save. Space wolves i can for see either TWC or wolf guard with SS + mark of the wulfen / plasma pistols?
tyranids: well depends on wording, if bone swords ignore Armour saves it will be good news =) but if not well then either genestealers (rending has actually already got ap 2 ) / MCs or use Doom of mala'tal and suck them dry =P
guard: shoot them and hope to god they don't survive
tau: see above =P
eldar: well if witchblades change it could give you a way, if not.....shoot the buggers and wait for a new codex
deamons: slaanesh stuff (rending ) / MC / mass fire power (horrors)
dark eldar: wych are still brilliant making them be stuck in CC / dark lance to death
orks : same as now, although they make burna's worse despite not really a "competitive" choice.
SoB: melta pistols form the jump packs (never ever played this army so don't know much about them)
necrons: scarabs to get rid of the armour save / wraiths to rend

Did i miss anything?

I love this thread,. 8 needless pages discussing a rumor that has...get this...been killed by another rumor.

90% of this gak is simply that...gak.

Please continue.

We're just killing time till the real stuff comes out. Besides, its fun to argue on "TE INTERNETZ!!!"

imweasel wrote:I love this thread,. 8 needless pages discussing a rumor that has...get this...been killed by another rumor.

90% of this gak is simply that...gak.

Please continue.

Everything is needless, we're being entertained by thoughts on things.

AP3 on Power & Force Weapons confirmed here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20gh91Ba8J4/T-nRIJxrvWI/AAAAAAAAGRo/wTQOz4g-Kyk/s1600/werwer.jpg

My post if you want to discuss further: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/457792.page

I think this is a terrible move for the game. Yes, it will nerf GK, but it will create another major problem; Terminators.
Armies like Daemons, DE, Eldar, & Necrons rely on power weapons in assault. Now they will just bounce of Terminators.

I also think this fails from a fluff perspectice. I have read most of the Black Library books, and Power Weapons pierce right thru
Terminator armor.

My sense is, this is GW's way of dealing with the GK problem, but it is only a band aid solution. It is going to create bigger issues.

The only real hope for most Xeno armies, are good FAQ's post 6th release that rescope many of the weapons to AP2.

I'm very concerned for Sisters armies in CC. Given a distinct lack of lots of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as well as overwhelming fire in shooting I think they will be in real trouble against Terminators of all stripes. Before the counter was Death Cult Assassins which use AP 3 weapons (power swords) since they are modeled no other way. I'm not really into custom making death Cultists with otehr weapons. Perhaps though, Repentia given the change to Rage and Feel No Pain may end up being more useful than Death Cultists.

Darklight wrote:AP3 on Power & Force Weapons confirmed here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20gh91Ba8J4/T-nRIJxrvWI/AAAAAAAAGRo/wTQOz4g-Kyk/s1600/werwer.jpg

My post if you want to discuss further: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/457792.page

I think this is a terrible move for the game. Yes, it will nerf GK, but it will create another major problem; Terminators.
Armies like Daemons, DE, Eldar, & Necrons rely on power weapons in assault. Now they will just bounce of Terminators.

I also think this fails from a fluff perspectice. I have read most of the Black Library books, and Power Weapons pierce right thru
Terminator armor.

My sense is, this is GW's way of dealing with the GK problem, but it is only a band aid solution. It is going to create bigger issues.

The only real hope for most Xeno armies, are good FAQ's post 6th release that rescope many of the weapons to AP2.

Warscythes are not "Power Weapons" and ignore ALL armor saves.

Surely Eldar won't hurt 'too' badly. - I'm sure the Banshee Executioners will be AP 2 to 1. Plus the striking scorpion exarch can take a power fist, no?

andrewm9 wrote:I'm very concerned for Sisters armies in CC. Given a distinct lack of lots of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as well as overwhelming fire in shooting

Are we talking about the same Sisters that spam dozens of meltaguns, rending heavy bolters, and exorcist launchers?

Grey Templar wrote:We're just killing time till the real stuff comes out. Besides, its fun to argue on "TE INTERNETZ!!!"

It's pronounced "Teh Interwebz". Please get it right next time.