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It would necessitate some general rebalancing (ie Terminators and Meganobz would have to go up in price, lists would have to be checked to ensure that all armies have access to melta/lascannon equivalents), but yes, AP3 plasma (and AP3 power weapons) would restore Terminators to what the fluff says they should be (and indeed to what they were in 2nd Ed.).

I have always thought that Terminators(even assault terminators) were a little sqishy for what they were in the Fluff.

I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.

Grey Templar wrote:I have always thought that Terminators(even assault terminators) were a little sqishy for what they were in the Fluff.

I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.

QFT -

But then you play Space Hulk and get raped all day long by 'stealers. "Whatever is on that Space Hulk, feth it, it's not worth it. Port Battery full bombardment of the Hulk please" Yeah I wouldn't be a popular Commander but I would be bloody effective and my Veterans would certainly see an exponential rise in their life expectancy.

YES!!!

Would a second wound kill you GW!

"Hey Mat, your spiritual liege would approve!"

One of things that annoys me, certainly in tournament play (and I'm going a little off piste here) is Meta lists. The fundamental lack of balance is shown when lists are generic, despite the huge variety of units and combinations. We all lump for the same type lists, at the Competition last weekend, the guy who came third ran an entire Space Marine Vanilla list based around 4 Tactical squads, devastators, lead by Marneus Calgar and a squad of Tactical Termies with Cyclones. Matt won everygame hands down. Through sheer badass Powerfists and overwhelming numbers of Krak missiles.

It's the same with GK, BA, SW etc etc.

I played FOW last weekend at the same event and I play Panzer Lehr, with a pair of Tiger Tanks attached. 4/5 players I faced were germans sporting either Panthers or Tigers....Yawn (Although I had them too so i'm as much to blame.....).

Meta-lists show how bad the rules are from a balance perspective, some say it's optimised, I say it's lobotomised. I just don't know how we get around it, well we could just make more balanced games, and I think this is where people say silly things like "40k needs more complexity" it already has it in spades, it's just most people only explore/ use about 20% of the unit/ combinations that they actually could.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.

You think that's rough? I was one of the first soldiers created to spread the Imperium across the galaxy. Fought daemons inside the warp and the best the Imperium had to offer without for millenia. Daemonic energy has infused my very being.

I get to carry a bolt pistol.

mwnciboo wrote:One of things that annoys me, certainly in tournament play (and I'm going a little off piste here) is Meta lists. The fundamental lack of balance is shown when lists are generic, despite the huge variety of units and combinations. We all lump for the same type lists, at the Competition last weekend, the guy who came third ran an entire Space Marine Vanilla list based around 4 Tactical squads, devastators, lead by Marneus Calgar and a squad of Tactical Termies with Cyclones. Matt won everygame hands down. Through sheer badass Powerfists and overwhelming numbers of Krak missiles.

What are you talking about when you say "meta?" Also, "generic" lists are often referred to as "balanced" lists and are normally what we strive for, no? Lists that only shoot or only assault are unbalanced, while lists that can do both are more effective...

@FETTERKEY - META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded. Some people say they are Geographic to regions, this is nonsense, it comes from the CODEX which is the same whether you are in the UK, Belgium or Arkansas. Some units are very cheap for the amount of abilities, HW's and options you get.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

2000

It takes advantage of the Assault Marines being troops (huh?) and getting a nice little assist by gaining cheap Razorbacks. So you literally spam them.

This is an example of a META-List and is difficult to defeat. Remembering that all Blood Angel Tanks are FAST TANKS! There are 3-4 Tournament META lists like this and at least 6-7 people will be running these lists at an event maybe even more.

Another is SW's which come in lots of flavours.

LONGFANG META LIST.

Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
5 Wolf Guard, 4 with Combi-Melta / Powerfist, 1 with Terminator Armor, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers

Another Version

Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
4Wolf Guard, 3 with Combi-Flamers and Powerfist, 1 with Frost Axe
Dreadnought with Two Twin-Linked Autocannons and Extra Armor
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
Landspeeder, Typhoon Launcher and Heavy Flamer
Landspeeder, Typhoon Launcher and Heavy Flamer
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers

These lists differ from C:SM because their points costs are usually cheaper and they have abilities and USR's beyond the normal Astartes etc. This makes them Uber Competitive and therefore solid lists but ultimately unfulfilled because there is little variation. If you come up against these lists, you need a META-BREAKER List, which is such a specialised List you will be useless against other armies and that is why META-Lists generally do well. It's interesting when two META Lists meet.

You can have a Balanced list, but with the amount of Assault Cannon Razorbacks you will pour out Twin linked Rending badass, the fast vindicators and Baal Preds will rip you apart.

There are meta lists for GK's, DE, ELDAR, IG infact every RACE has a META List. Equally the META-Game is about the 3M's MECH, MELTA and MOBILITY.

mwnciboo wrote:I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.

The Conversion Beamer was brought back in 5th, what with the it being in C:SM and GK

Also plasma being AP3..Yeah honestly, no, because plasma has been always like this, even in 2nd edition and rogue trader it was one of the most effective things at knocking down that 2D6 terminator armor save.

Also, it would Completely Ruin Tau

Plasma is fine at AP2. It is a bolt of high-energy ions, after all.

Though don't get me started on it...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.

The Conversion Beamer was brought back in 5th, what with the it being in C:SM and GK]

Yes it was but only for the MOTF (less said about GK the better)..... Not really a strong HQ choice. The Contemptor and the New DEIMOS PATTERN PREDATOR EXECUTIONER both come with Conversion Beamers, yes it is 30k stuff but I doubt they would have done it if they hadn't touched base with the GW team in the Studio over the way at the same site. I predict it will be an option for more vehicles rather than an obscure upgrade to a HQ model!

mwnciboo wrote:META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points

That list isn't good.

mwnciboo wrote:It takes advantage of the Assault Marines being troops (huh?) and getting a nice little assist by gaining cheap Razorbacks. So you literally spam them.

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?

mwnciboo wrote:This is an example of a META-List and is difficult to defeat. Remembering that all Blood Angel Tanks are FAST TANKS! There are 3-4 Tournament META lists like this and at least 6-7 people will be running these lists at an event maybe even more.

I went to a tournament once and played an army like that in my first game. I defeated it with my balanced list.

mwnciboo wrote:LONGFANG META LIST.

So... an average Space Wolf army? What's the horrible broken part there?

mwnciboo wrote:These lists differ from C:SM because their points costs are usually cheaper and they have abilities and USR's beyond the normal Astartes etc.

And Space Marines have abilities and USRs that these guys don't get. What's your point?

mwnciboo wrote:This makes them Uber Competitive and therefore solid lists but ultimately unfulfilled because there is little variation. If you come up against these lists, you need a META-BREAKER List, which is such a specialised List you willbe useless against other armies and that is why META-Lists generally do well. It's interesting when two META Lists meet.

Your comments don't match my experience in tournament play. A strong list with a balance between assault and shooting (like the Space Wolf one you just posted) will do fine against a wide variety of lists, "META" or no "META."

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?

I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)

Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.

^ This... It just gives people even more reason to spam TH/SS terminators. Wait all your paladins who only have Force Weapons which count as power weapons unless activated AP 3, well then let me charge with my 5 man TH/SS squad roll 2s and proceed to stomp your face.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?

I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)

This. I'd be ok if their transports had the caveat that jump infantry could ride in them, or if their assault marines had the option to ditch their jump packs.

But WTF is the discount for? It's not like the Blood Angels have more tanks than anyone else - that title goes to the Aurora Chapter.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.

Why wouldn't it be? Assault Marines without jump packs are significantly worse than Tactical Marines.

mwnciboo wrote:*Long list snip*

I don't think you brought quite enough assault cannons there.

Well I'm sorry it doesn't match you experience. But my experience is that META - Lists abound and they are difficult to defeat, because they exploit costings etc. (I play Vanilla Marines and know the CODEX well).

Okay if you want to play the hard way lets compare my Codex Devastator Squad with a Space Wolf one.

Okay I get 4 HW's and a Signum max number 10 men.

SW's get 5 HW's and Fire Control (much better USR) max numbers 6, all HW's are cheaper. (C:SM LC = 35 points C:SW LC = 25 points) Okay so that's 10 points less but they only 15points per model e.g 90 for 6 men.... My Codex one costs 90 points 5 men....

So in direct comparison they get an extra HW, cheaper and the ability to split fire though they have a smaller squad size.

Equally a Tactical Squad is no match for a SW Grey Hunter Squad, despite their LD 8 they are all round superior and about the same price.

You are not comparing like with like, CODEX SW is not balanced neither is BA or GK, that's why they are popular. Your comment below shows exactly why the META list works you get alot of bang for your buck, the SW list above is a META list. It's not about Balance, or synergy it's about overloading the enemy with more than they can cope with. It's the reason you don't see Skyclaws, or Blood Claws because by comparison they are expensive.

"Your comments don't match my experience in tournament play. A strong list with a balance between assault and shooting (like the Space Wolf one you just posted) will do fine against a wide variety of lists, "META" or no "META."

If you don't believe in META lists then fine, I wish you the best. However I do believe in them, I've seen them, fought them, beaten them, lost to them, but it is never easy. The same with BA FNP DoA Jump pack Spam army. META lists abound, because everyone knows what works and what doesn't and that indicates a lack of balance as Players gravitate towards these generic stock/effective lists, this makes the game less diverse and less fulfilling as at a Tournament you see 7 SW armies, 6 BA Armies, 5 GK armies, 3 Orks , 2 Necron , 3 Eldar etc.

That FETTERKEY is the issue, the lack of balance leads alot of players down the same list path. the fact you think the Space Wolf lists is balanced, is a bit odd because your are either Assault Army, Shooty Army, Fast Attack, Mobile etc. You cannot do everything Balanced, because a META List concentrates on one thing and does it very well. You cannot be good/ balanced at everything, that's what Codex SM tries and fails at, you have to cherry pick your list to maximise your effectiveness and you are never balanced.

mwnciboo wrote:Well I'm sorry it doesn't match you experience. But my experience is that META - Lists abound and they are difficult to defeat, because they exploit costings etc.

Okay if you want to play the hard way lets compare my Codex Devastator Squad with a Space Wolf one.

Long Fangs aren't underpriced, Space Marine Devastators are overpriced.

mwnciboo wrote:Equally a Tactical Squad is no match for a SW Grey Hunter Squad, despite their LD 8 they are all round superior and about the same price.

Tactical Marines still have strong options.

mwnciboo wrote:You are not comparing like with like, CODEX SW is not balanced neither is BA or GK, that's why they are popular. Your comment below shows exactly why the META list works you get alot of bang for your buck, the SW list above is a META list. It's not about Balance, or synergy it's about overloading the enemy with more than they can cope with. It's the reason you don't see Skyclaws, or Blood Claws because by comparison they are expensive.

"META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like."

mwnciboo wrote:The same with BA FNP DoA Jump pack Spam army.

That's a gimmick army that isn't even good. It automatically loses to armies that beat it in CC.

mwnciboo wrote:META lists abound, because everyone knows what works and what doesn't and that indicates a lack of balance as Players gravitate towards these generic stock/effective lists, this makes the game less diverse and less fulfilling as at a Tournament you see 7 SW armies, 6 BA Armies, 5 GK armies, 3 Orks , 2 Necron , 3 Eldar etc.

So it's bad that people take units they find effective?

Long Fangs are underpriced, Blood Angel Devastators are just about right, Vanilla devastators are overpriced. That's how I see it from an outsider's perspective of someone who's never used an MEQ army.

@FETTERKEY I have got to be honest "META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like." Is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You need to hit the search engines a bit and stop digging a bigger hole for yourself. I'm a nice guy, so I won't hold that comment against you, but it made me chuckle.

So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?

Now if you ready my earlier post, I was actually advocating better balance between the codexes to reduce META lists and stop this gravitating towards the Holy trinity of BA, GK and SW.

Anyway if you want to debate this further great lets start a Thread, and we can stop derailing this one.

mwnciboo wrote:So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?

One unit costing more doesn't mean the whole Codex is less effective for its cost. Try looking at the costs of TH/SS Terminators if you want to see a unit that's stronger in Codex: Space Marines than in other books. Each Codex has units that are better and worse relative to units in other books, and you should play to your own Codex's strengths when making an army.

C:SM across the board is poor compared to GK, BA, SW it's not just one unit the things they don't get are occassionally good fun, IronClad Dreadnoughts for example. There are some nice to haves, but really not much. LSS anyone? I would rather have a scout squad Elite unit with a Melta gun. My Assault Termies whilst great, don't get FNP where as the Sanguinary Guard do or Death Company or alternatively being assaulted by Thunderwolves or receiving a Salvo of Krak Missiles from a LONGFANG unit? Against assault armies with PW's and High Initiative my Assault Termies will get spanked even with a 3+ INV. The best unit is possibly the Company Command unit with a Apoc for FNP and lots Relic Blades, fast hard hitting and can perform sweeping advances unlike termies.

This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro. Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.

The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.

It'd make Golden Rain able to beat GK, and that's all that I need.

Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...

Grimnarsmate wrote:Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...

I don't know what list you run, but there should be Lances coming out of everything.

Damn beat me! I got battered by a list of open topped vehicles Lancing me to death about 6 weeks back, what are those things called that the infantry can hang off all spikey and that?

Anyway he hammered me with those on Dawn of War, so he was over half across the table at the start, I was hemmed in and the Incurbai got in their and intestines were flying!

Iridium armor Shas'O gets a slight buff in combat.

Less sneaky PW wounds from powers blobs I guess

mwnciboo wrote:C:SM across the board is poor compared to GK, BA, SW it's not just one unit the things they don't get are occassionally good fun, IronClad Dreadnoughts for example. There are some nice to haves, but really not much. LSS anyone? I would rather have a scout squad Elite unit with a Melta gun.

Space Marines can take Thunderfire Cannons, cheaper Assault Terminators, Null Zone and Gate of Infinity, several great special characters, etc.

mwnciboo wrote:Against assault armies with PW's and High Initiative my Assault Termies will get spanked even with a 3+ INV.

Um, what? My Assault Terminators regularly stomp Grey Knight units. 3++ really does go a long way-- the only unit that my Assault Terminators honestly fear in assault, aside from giant hordes, is Death Cult Assassins with grenade support.

mwnciboo wrote:The best unit is possibly the Company Command unit with a Apoc for FNP and lots Relic Blades, fast hard hitting and can perform sweeping advances unlike termies.

Command Squads aren't really good and haven't been good for a while. The biker command squad "super" unit doesn't stack up anymore, and the normal one isn't particularly impressive. Also, Command Squads can't take relic blades and relic blades are bad anyway (single lightning claws cost half as much and are generally better).

mwnciboo wrote:This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro.

So Codex: Space Marines is bad if you take away a lot of its good options? Uh... okay? Codex: Space Wolves would be bad too if you couldn't take Long Fangs or Rune Priests. One of the key facets of Codex: Space Marines is the way that special characters work in the context of the list as a whole. That said, this is also a rather exaggerated claim. I personally tend to avoid fielding special characters (sometimes I take Cassius or Telion), as I don't find them hugely effective.

mwnciboo wrote:Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.

But in this case Combat Tactics *did* work for you-- it prevented the Orks from firing! I honestly think Combat Tactics is substantially better than Stubborn, Fleet, or Counter Attack.

mwnciboo wrote:The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.

I play as a custom Iron Hands successor chapter and I've been doing quite well. I used to have close to a pure gunline army, but I realized that this wasn't the strength of Codex: Space Marines-- Codex: Space Marines is great at owning the middle of the field with flexible and effective units, and now that I've switched to a build that has better ability to move into the center of the field and control the game I've been doing much better.

Oh jeeze here we go with the "The game is balanced!" "No it isn't!" Debate.