The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Redbeard**

TedNugent wrote:This would actually benefit Orks tremendously. Orks use Power Fists almost exclusively, there literally is not a dedicated Power Weapon in the entire Codex. Assuming you still need AP2 to defeat Feel No Pain, that means Nobs gain some tremendous survivability and Meganobz may become viable.
All for no loss in offensive power.

Unless you consider that everyone's base CC attack will ignore our already weak armour...

I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.

**DarknessEternal**

I support any rule change that makes Terminators tougher. Terminator armor used to be the second toughest thing in the game (to Carnifexes, yes, all vehicles weren't as tough). They have been cheapened over the years and it isn't something I care for.

I play Eldar so the only thing I have to gain from tougher Terminators is a headache. But that's just the way they should be.

**mwnciboo**

Fetterkey wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.

But in this case Combat Tactics *did* work for you-- it prevented the Orks from firing! I honestly think Combat Tactics is substantially better than Stubborn, Fleet, or Counter Attack.

WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Chapter tactics is great, unless the other player is wise to it. He didn't shoot me because he knew I would opt to pull back and he wouldn't get to assault me this turn and I would rapid fire him next turn. So he choose not to shoot denying me the chance to use Combat tactics and then charged me anyway, he tactically choose not to shoot to deny me the chance of escape. he effectively sealed my fate. How in gods name is that good for me?

So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.

I'm not getting into this anymore i'm done. Read up on Meta-gaming.

**Kingsley**

Redbeard wrote:I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.

One interesting thing to consider is the "pancake edition" rumor that power weapons would grant a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. If that occurs in conjunction with this rumor, I think power weapons would definitely have a use case. In fact, the earlier "pancake edition" rumors would have made power weapons totally dominant over power fists. If we see some of those changes but also power fists having greater AP values, I think that would lead to a good balance between the two weapons on characters who can take either, while still not ruining dedicated power weapon or power fist units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mwnciboo wrote:WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Uh, trivially yes? If they shot AND assaulted you, you would lose more models. The fact that they only assaulted you and didn't shoot you means Combat Tactics saved some of your guys.

mwnciboo wrote:So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.

Why would I want to stay in the assault?

mwnciboo wrote:I'm not getting into this anymore i'm done. Read up on Meta-gaming.

Based on this and the general tone of your posts, I have a feeling you think you're substantially better than you actually are.

**JbR of the Endless Spire**

Ok guys could you take it into another thread please? It's way off topic now.

In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2. This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies.

Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army?
Who can get the most PF into their army?

If you want to buff terminators to the point of god hood (like the fluff) 3+ save on 2D6... job done. If your just trying to reduce Power Weapons casualty rate then just bring back save modifiers of 2nd Ed... job done.

Simply put terminators are already the most durable infantry in the game, anything that takes down a termie will take down anything else easier...

**Kingsley**

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2.

How so? Six normal wounds still kill a Terminator on average. I honestly think Terminators should be 2 wounds or 3+ on 2d6 (yes, this means krak missiles would pierce their armor).

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies

It's mostly a nerf to Grey Knights, who many people consider the best army at present, so I'm not sure how this hugely benefits others.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army? Who can get the most PF into their army?

The widely-feared Dark Angels, of course! They will be even more dominant with... oh wait...

**JbR of the Endless Spire**

They would still get their armour saves against normally caused wounds... if they fail 6 then they are just unlucky or have just been hit with 36 wounds (as an average) if that were marines it would be double the number of casualties, if it were orks... well you get the picture... I think thats actually pretty damn resilient...

We don't know if its a nerf to grey knights as there isn't anything in there about codex specific weapons... and why would GW make normal termies BETTER than GK termies all of a sudden? (highly unlikely)

DA don't even have an up to date codex yet... so who knows what changes will happen there. Either way the point is they are a variant SM codex... SM can get the most 2+ saves and the most PF AND more often do so....

EDIT: An even simpler way to make termies more resilient... allow them to take their ++ save AS WELL AS their + save.

**Kingsley**

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:We don't know if its a nerf to grey knights as there isn't anything in there about codex specific weapons... and why would GW make normal termies BETTER than GK termies all of a sudden? (highly unlikely)

The only widely used competitive unit that has basic power weapons is Death Cult Assassins, who are primarily found in Codex: Grey Knights. If the NFWs get the nerf as well, it'll be a pretty solid blow against the GK codex.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:EDIT: An even simpler way to make termies more resilient... allow them to take their ++ save AS WELL AS their + save.

I'm not a great fan of this idea because it would make TH/SS terminators even better (relative to normal Terminators) than they already are. The current changes strike me as good because they'll provide players with more reason to take normal Terminators, who I personally would like to see on the table more often!

**Grey Templar**

I would say Terminators got worse.

3+ on 2D6 is MUCH better then 2+ on D6(and Krak missiles were different then)

**ZebioLizard2**

Grey Templar wrote:I would say Terminators got worse.

3+ on 2D6 is MUCH better then 2+ on D6(and Krak missiles were different then)

Everything was different back than, what with different values for all the power weapons (From swords that are able to parry, to one/two handed power axes, and power mauls and the like)

**terranarc**

If you look at terminators in a vacuum the yes they got buffed. But look at everything else and you'll see that the opposite is true.
Spells in earlier edition were mostly AP4-5. Weapons that weren't plasma or anti-tank were rarely AP2 or AP3.
These days, everyone and their allies get some form of AP2 or cheap high initiative power weapon.
I would much prefer (as a DA DW player) a world where AP2 was rare and give up the 5++ that never does anything when I desperately need it to.

Also I checked up on the whole,
PF Ap2 CF Ap1 thing on BoW.
That was just some guy's comment who has NO CREDIBILITY what so ever.

And my original notion of why TH/SS would be nerfed was because imagine everything but chainfists and things that rolled 2d6 was AP3.
This would mean that a squad of assault or tactical terminators are only AP3. A squad of tactical terminators with CHAINFISTS (that no one uses) would all have AP2.
Now, TH/SS is good primarily because of SS's 3++ but in a world where you'd be able to use your 2+ against most things, stormshields become far less valuable in CC.
While this isn't a direct nerf to TH/SS, its a relative nerf to your tactical terminators who have access to AP2, shooting and heavy weapons.

**Snickerdoodle**

Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

**terranarc**

Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

Oh wow I didn't even think about paladins at all. I guess they would be extra happy if only chainfists and monstrous creatures became AP2.

**Kain**

terranarc wrote:
Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

Oh wow I didn't even think about paladins at all. I guess they would be extra happy if only chainfists and monstrous creatures became AP2.

As someone who finds Draigowing to be annoying as all feth to kill I have only this to say.

Great now my bonesword warriors and tyrant guards are going to do all of jack and squat to a draigowing. Might as well tell my wife to shelve the Howling Banshees too.

**DarthOvious**

terranarc wrote:So if you've been watching BoW's 6th leaks, you might've caught the AP3 powersword comment Darrel made and that got me seriously thinking about the future of 2+.

What if all generic power weapons including fists and hammers become ap3? And the only CCWs that remain AP2 are weapons that roll 2d6 for armor pen. I can see GW doing this and heres why:
The only 2 units that really use and rely on 2+ armor saves are terminators and MANZ. If chainfists became the only way to get AP2 in close combat, it'd dramatically change the balance between tactical terminators and assault terminators. Right now everyone prefers TH/SS over your SB/PF option because of the exponentially higher survival rate in CC with storm shields but that would change as you'd be able to use your 2+ against most power weapons. In fact, this would give people a real reason to take chainfists other than just trying to slip a 2d6 armor pen in here and there.
This would be a dramatic buff to MANZ and tactical terminators while nerfing th/ss and being that GW has a habit of nerfing things people love to use and buffing things no one uses, I can easily see this happening.

Anyone else thinking this?

EDIT:
FAKE
So, current rumors put it as
Close Combat
*All Close Combat Weapons will have an AP value
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

So my rant about possible AP3 power fists/THs is off. On the other hand, AP1 chainfists yo.

EDIT2:
That ended up being some comment on BoW, not a real rumor. So once again, we don't know the AP values of chainfist, DLC, powerfist, TH/SS, ect.

If power weapons were to become AP3 then that would have a double effect on my Sanguinary Guard. They would be more survivable in combat against enemies with power weapons bu at the same time their damage output against AP2 would be reduced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

htj wrote:Hmm, this'd be terrible business for my DE army. It would leave pretty much just Disintegrators and Blasters / Dark Lances that could bring down Terminators. May not sound like a big deal, but for a close combat based army like mine, with a frequent opponent of mine fielding Death Wing equivalent... not great.

Or you could just shoot them with lots of poision weapons from your open topped vehicles.

**Sigvatr**

I can hardly imagine such a buff without any changes to GK...else they'd be even more ridiculous.

In general, discussing the change of AP is rather futile without knowing about all of the upcoming rule changes...salt in a vaccum

**DarthOvious**

Macok wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.

Blood Angels player here.

Standard HQ for us is Libby with Power Armour or Chaplain with Power Armour. Sanguinary Guard have artificier armour but you don't see lots of BA lists with SG hopping about the place. Standard jumper list usually starts with Assault Squads with Priests for feel no pain. Heck, we can take Dante and then SG as troops if we want but it's not a list that gets taken all the time.

Mephiston gets taken because he's T6 with 5 wounds
The Sanguinor has a 2+ sv with a 3++ save and isn't considered great by many players although I love him for his 3++ save.
Dante is taken for deep striking without scattering and his hit & run rule.

Blood Angel players don't take units specifically for 2+ armour.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tuebor wrote:I remember before 4th came out and the Internet declared that CC armies were doomed because you couldn't assault out of Rhinos or Wave Serpents anymore and how they were doomed for real before 5th because you couldn't consolidate into a new combat anymore. We know even less about 6th than we did 4th and 5th before they came out, I'd say it's safe to say we have nothing like a clear picture yet. Personally, I'll worry about the new rules when I actually see them rather than being all Chicken Little over a handful of vague half rumors that may or may not be true.

Although CC is still an important part of the game I have to say that shooting has overpassed it. The strongest lists you can get tend to be shooty lists.

**English Assassin**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Also plasma being AP3..Yeah honestly, no, because plasma has been always like this, even in 2nd edition and rogue trader it was one of the most effective things at knocking down that 2D6 terminator armor save.

Leaving aside the obvious fact that Terminators didn't have a 2D6 save in Rogue Trader, this is an embarrassingly ignorant statement. Plasma guns in 2nd Ed had a -2 saving throw modifier, plasma pistols a -1, and the heavy plasma gun (later to be renamed the plasma cannon) -3. Plasma was utterly crap for penetrating terminator armour; to do that you needed a lascannon (-6), metlagun or multi-melta (both -4).

**DarthOvious**

King Pariah wrote:Thunderhammers I think would make more sense as an AP2 weapon, I just don't see it as a dedicated tank popping weapon. But that just may be me.

I do. The way I see it is that Thunder Hammers are just basically powerfists with the added bonus of causing crew shaken results on transports. So they stick out to me as anti-tank pieces of wargear. In saying that MC's also strike at Init 1 in the following round of combat so they are also useful against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points

That list isn't good.

Well I have to agree that Dark Eldar venomspam is stronger. Faced one last night and I was blown away and my list was a mech type list, although different from the one he posted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?

I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)

Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.

I understand, but the reason for the discount is because the assault marines are taking their jump packs off. Sure they are better in CC than tacticals but they also have less range on their bolt pistols and can't rapid fire with them. The reason why tacticals are not taken isbecause they can only have one special weapon instead of two in a ten man squad and also a five man squad of tacticals can have nothing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mwnciboo wrote:@FETTERKEY I have got to be honest "META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like." Is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You need to hit the search engines a bit and stop digging a bigger hole for yourself. I'm a nice guy, so I won't hold that comment against you, but it made me chuckle.

So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?

Now if you ready my earlier post, I was actually advocating better balance between the codexes to reduce META lists and stop this gravitating towards the Holy trinity of BA, GK and SW.

Anyway if you want to debate this further great lets start a Thread, and we can stop derailing this one.

So basically Vanilla Marines need a new codex. One where you don't need to take Vulcan in order to make a good list.

**ZebioLizard2**

Great now my bonesword warriors and tyrant guards are going to do all of jack and squat to a draigowing. Might as well tell my wife to shelve the Howling Banshees too.

Boneswords are not power weapons, they are ignore all armor, so they'll likely cut through AP2 still.

Leaving aside the obvious fact that Terminators didn't have a 2D6 save in Rogue Trader, this is an embarrassingly ignorant statement. Plasma guns in 2nd Ed had a -2 saving throw modifier, plasma pistols a -1, and the heavy plasma gun (later to be renamed the plasma cannon) -3. Plasma was utterly crap for penetrating terminator armour; to do that you needed a lascannon (-6), metlagun or multi-melta (both -4).

Or a lightning claw (-5), chain fist (-6), also the heavy plasma gun is (-6) on full blast, along with the Super Krak Missile from your Standard Missle Launchers (-6), Cyclone terminator missiles (-6), or the conversion Beamer (What armor save? haha), There's others, but I'm not gonna type out the entire book.

I'll be honest though, I had completely forgotten that plasma wasn't that hardcore back in 2nd, not to mention my rogue trader is rusty (I still have the Wargear book from 1993, and a few other smattering is books, but mostly just 2nd) Sorry about that.

Think I combined a bit of my fantasy knowledge with it instead.

**DarthOvious**

mwnciboo wrote: My Assault Termies whilst great, don't get FNP where as the Sanguinary Guard do or Death Company

Hang on. We do pay for our priests you know. We don't get the feel no pain for nothing. We have to invest pts in an indpendent character who can picked out in close combat. Yeah, the nice DOA FNP army is nice, but fully kitted out it's very expensive and comes out at over 300pts for the unit, 235 pts for the squad and 75pts for the priest with a jump pack, which can die very nicely under an S8 AP3 or better blast template.

Death Company on the other hand suffer from rage and pretty much need to go towards the nearest enemy.

This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro. Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.

Agreed, codex Space Marines isn't so great anymore, but all this means is that you need a new codex.

The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.

But it's not just BA, SW and GK. It's everything, its all the armies out there. The new Necron dex and also the DE codex aren't exactly crap. They can have some powerful lists in them too. Its codex creep across the board.

Just so you know I've been playing Blood Angels since 3rd Edition and I've had to put up with the same crap as well. I had to put up with a 3rd ed codex with a FAQ needed in order for it to be playable. I had to put up with some WHite Dwarf codex that gave us amazing exploding Rhinos with the only priest in the book being Corbulo. We've all been there and done that and yes codex creep happens but it's because the game system is so difficult to balance out in the first place and also because they are always trying to expand the amount of options available in each new release.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimnarsmate wrote:Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...

WHich you get in abundance and different types of.

**labmouse42**

This change would buff terminators and other 2+ save units slightly. This would stop some of the hard counters to the terminator army. For example, death cult assassins would not roll over a deathwing army.

When compared to a TH/SS terminator it would double their surviability vs power swords. While this is significant, it pales in comparison to how tactical terminators grow in survivability vs power swords.

This will be even more impactful if force weapons and rending also have AP3 effects -- making terminators a nice counter to the GK weapons or wraiths.

However, you cannot take one rumor and place it into the 5th edition ruleset to get the full impact of what this would mean. While this might buff terminator armies (and honor guard, etc), there might be other rules changes that nurf them.
Therefore, before you cry "My army is useless" wait for the full 6th edition to drop.

**DarthOvious**

mwnciboo wrote:Damn beat me! I got battered by a list of open topped vehicles Lancing me to death about 6 weeks back, what are those things called that the infantry can hang off all spikey and that?

Anyway he hammered me with those on Dawn of War, so he was over half across the table at the start, I was hemmed in and the Incurbai got in their and intestines were flying!

They're called Venoms. Played a guy last night who was playing with a list like that. He had one Raider, two void ravens and lots of venoms. And of course the venoms are open topped and so the troops can shoot out with their poisioned 4+ weapons. Just be comforted in the fact that it will take them another 15 years before they get a new codex.

**labmouse42**

Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

This is a prime example of someone taking the ruleset out of context by placing the ruleset into 5th edition. Sure, this would make paladins tougher to kill, but what if they get rid of wound allocation magic and change FNP to a 5+ save and modify cover to a 5+ save.

Suddenly that paladin unit becomes a lot easier to kill in shooting. Now, is the paladin unit better or worse?

**DarthOvious**

mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

Chapter tactics is great, unless the other player is wise to it. He didn't shoot me because he knew I would opt to pull back and he wouldn't get to assault me this turn and I would rapid fire him next turn. So he choose not to shoot denying me the chance to use Combat tactics and then charged me anyway, he tactically choose not to shoot to deny me the chance of escape. he effectively sealed my fate. How in gods name is that good for me?

Players are always going to find a way to nullify your strength. How is it good for me that my IC priest can be picked out in combat and murdered to stop me getting FNP & Furious charge?

So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.

Fleet is useless if you DON'T WANT to get into combat with the opposition. It just helps you run the other way which isn't too wise either as you'll get shot at while running away. Admittedly counter attack is brilliant.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Ok guys could you take it into another thread please? It's way off topic now.

In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2. This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies.

Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army?
Who can get the most PF into their army?

If you want to buff terminators to the point of god hood (like the fluff) 3+ save on 2D6... job done. If your just trying to reduce Power Weapons casualty rate then just bring back save modifiers of 2nd Ed... job done.

Simply put terminators are already the most durable infantry in the game, anything that takes down a termie will take down anything else easier...

Well yes, but its not like I only pay 15pts for a Terminator. I pay 40pts per Terminator.

**loota boy**

DarthOvious wrote:
mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

**Kain**

loota boy wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

This, anyone assuming that the Orks are a non-factor in the shooting phase is in for a very rude surprise when the Ork player dumps a bucket load of dice when it's time for his guns to start pouring out the dakka.

**Redbeard**

loota boy wrote:
This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting."

But it does mean that individual shot weapons, especially our AP2 options (zzap guns and Kustom Mega-Blastas) are rarely worth the points.

Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase.

I wouldn't call paying 180 points to kill three marines or one terminator within 18" very effective. It's a bucket of dice. Those dice rarely accomplish all that much, unfortunately. It works okay against other xenos armies, but they're rarely the most common opponents.

**loota boy**

Redbeard wrote:
loota boy wrote:
This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting."

But it does mean that individual shot weapons, especially our AP2 options (zzap guns and Kustom Mega-Blastas) are rarely worth the points.

Of course. Never said anything of the sort, barring killa kans of course.

Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase.

I wouldn't call paying 180 points to kill three marines or one terminator within 18" very effective. It's a bucket of dice. Those dice rarely accomplish all that much, unfortunately. It works okay against other xenos armies, but they're rarely the most common opponents.

But it's not something to disregard either. Marines are tough to take down with base weapons, yes, but that's true for most armies. What i'm trying to say i guess is that anyone who sits about and says that you shouldn't worry about ork shooting because BS 2= are bad n stuff isn't really thinking that through. Shoota boyz are great against xenos armies, and are fine for dinging up a nasty unit you'd rather not tangle with. There are exceptions, yes, but saying ork shooting is crap is just wrong.

**Kain**

Plus if Orks had BS3 or 4 I'm pretty sure they'd become outright broken with the amount of shots they can pour out.