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BaronIveagh wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yep, Fiction.

And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...

Technically he's right, if you only consider the main islands of Japan. And as a fan of anime and crystals (and many other minerals, but most particularly fossils) but not a fan of cats, I'm vaguely offended.

Technically, Tadashi cannot be right. It's a universal constant. When there's a Tadashi post that contains something which is accurate, then it's to be assumed that he did not author it, but instead left his Dakka account open for someone else.

And no, the U.S would not have had to kill them all. That's just false. And crazy. When was the last time a nation state was wiped, however devoted they were to their figure-head? Never, that's when.

Oh and no offense to anyone liking cats, anime, crystals, or dude for that matter, but all offense to those who like bad 40k fiction. I mean, bad fiction is bad, how bad is it when it's also bad 40k fiction? (wow I think I've just invented a new koan)

The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.

Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.

Yeah, Khwarezmian Empire was always a freaking hard Medieval TW Stainless Steel campaign...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

And you are proud of that.

Do I need to say more?

Kovnik Obama wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.

Yeah, Khwarezmian Empire was always a freaking hard Medieval TW Stainless Steel campaign...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Operation: Overlord would have been the biggest loss of life in Human history. The entire Empire would have fought to the last man, woman, and child...there is no doubt the Allies would have won - only to be damned by all of Asia and vindicating our Empire in the end.

And you are proud of that.

Do I need to say more?

Yes. I'm not proud of what we did in the war (my great-grandfathers were both soldiers - the paternal one refused to tell anything that happened in Manchuria and the maternal one spent most of the occupation in a hellish prison camp) but my point is that Asia would be better off (if not independent) under an Asian power at the least as opposed to Western powers. At the very least, even in defeat, we helped exhaust the West to the point they couldn't restore their control over their FORMER colonies.

Can we please just get back on topic?
Why does this happen so often on this forum? Sheesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:Mark my words, I fully expect when the emperor dies he becomes an actual god and then we will see the new codex " Codex: Angels "

Don't think matt ward won't. He can bring back the primarchs that way.

Then I'd better do it before he gets there. At least (hopefully) I won't mess up as bad as he does.

BaronIveagh wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.

Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.

What? It seems you completely misunderstood me somehow. I never said compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment', not sure where you got my "weird idea"???
I was saying that what the poster was describing was "clingy attachment" AS OPPOSED to compassion. There is a big difference, as there is a BIG difference between love and universal compassion and desire, lust and attachment. I feel genuinely bad for people who cannot see the difference, but that's the way the world is unfortunately.

But anyway, the way I see it is that it's totally possible to have a Daemon based on lust, or obsessiveness, or any other emotion that is based on desire (because extreme forms of desire are always negative), but not universal compassion or love (the non-clingy kind).

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The closest campaign I can think of to a "complete" obliteration of a human nation would probably be 13th Century C.E. Genghis Khan's decimation of the Khwarezmian Empire was probably as close as you can get to being completely wiped out.

Destruction of the Erie (really their name, and for whom the city is named) nation in Western New York in the 17th Century. The city sits on the location of their last stand, according to accounts, the blood was ankle deep in places. An interesting note, the Erie were possessed of a genetic quirk that the majority of them were in excess of six feet tall, and Erie ancestry is considered the source for the occasional Seneca (who killed or enslaved the Erie) who exceed six or seven feet in height.

The Romans were quite fond of that sort of campaign. Quite few peoples were wiped out or enslaved.

The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Mynameisalie wrote:
Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.

Yes, but it's still an extreme state. Remember that virtues can be taken to extremes as well as vices.

Honor, for example, is a virtue. But it still feeds Khorne.

'Extreme state', perhaps. But it isn't a desire. You aren't attaching yourself to any object of desire and chasing it endlessly when you are truly selfless. You don't want want anything in return, because you have no sense of 'I' and no ego, you see yourself as a part of the universe and everyone and every thing in the universe is connected and one. So any sense of self has been eliminated.

Honor is a desire as it is an extension of pride, or a desire to be recognised in some way. So for me it's easy to see why it feeds Khorne. Though, not to say honor cannot be positive. Just in it's extreme form it is negative and harmful, as is any desire.

Okay, so I admit that due to my Buddhist upbringing (I would still class my beliefs as predominantly Buddhist, though I don't follow any religion now I am older) my views on this are probably a bit pre-determined.

This actually highlights the limitations of this subject: We don't know what views the writers of this fluff have or originally had. And more importantly, it is totally open to individual interpretation, depending on the individual's beliefs. So as this is a fictional universe where we have a different set of physics (the warp, psychic powers), it's probably not useful to try and apply our sets of beliefs based on what we know about THIS universe to the 40k universe.

BaronIveagh wrote:

The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.

India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhabinod_Pal

I bow in respect...and I will when I get the chance to visit Yasukuni Shrine.

Tadashi wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

The United States has, in the past, annihilated entire peoples down to the last man, woman, and child. The idea that they would kill every last living human being in Japan to achieve victory is not far fetched. Sadly, large portions Asia was not in much condition to be horrified at the time, following Japanese occupation. China, for example, would have happily watched Japan burn from end to end and toasted marshmallows on the funeral pyre.

India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhabinod_Pal

I bow in respect...and I will when I get the chance to visit Yasukuni Shrine.

Shame he was a crazy, conspiracy nut who was willfully ignorant...
He claimed that all defendants were innocent because the tribunal itself was illegitimate and claimed the US had provoked the war and expected Japan to act...

Tadashi wrote:
India would have gone up in flames...they were the only ones to stand up for us at the Tokyo War Crime Trials. At the very least, they would seek to make sure to show the world that no matter how far the Japanese Empire fell, it was nothing compared to what would have amounted to cold-blooded genocide by the so-called 'free world'.

Ok, now that's a blatant misrepresentation of Pals findings. Pal's dissenting opinion was not based in the actions of Japan, (he stated the evidence against them was overwhelming) but in the idea that the trial was not actually justice, but rather retribution (a valid point). While he was (in all honesty) correct in questioning the legitimacy of the tribunal, he at no point denied that Japan had really committed all those atrocities, something that many Japanese nationalists leave out when they select excerpts from his dissension. He felt that the Class B and C war crimes trials covered Japans crimes, and that a class A was unneeded other then as a spectacle.

*Bangs head on desk*
We actually manage to get back on topic for 3 posts. It's a start. Can we try not to include countries obliterating others and whatnot in this thread? If you really want to discuss that, please do it in the OT forum. No disrespect, but it's where debates like that belong, ok?
FifteenHours, you are correct. We can't involve what we believe in in this discussion and yes, it is very open to individual opinions. However, if this thread does actually manage to tie up a loose end(s) in 40k, then I'm happy.
These benign daemons have to be thought about very carefully. I think we have already determined that a single emotion or concept can be both negative and positive, but most obsessions/desires are primarily negative. Some, such as selflessness, can be regarded as positive.
Anyone else got anything against this? Or anything to add?

Mynameisalie wrote:*Bangs head on desk*
We actually manage to get back on topic for 3 posts. It's a start. Can we try not to include countries obliterating others and whatnot in this thread? If you really want to discuss that, please do it in the OT forum. No disrespect, but it's where debates like that belong, ok?
FifteenHours, you are correct. We can't involve what we believe in in this discussion and yes, it is very open to individual opinions. However, if this thread does actually manage to tie up a loose end(s) in 40k, then I'm happy.
These benign daemons have to be thought about very carefully. I think we have already determined that a single emotion or concept can be both negative and positive, but most obsessions/desires are primarily negative. Some, such as selflessness, can be regarded as positive.
Anyone else got anything against this? Or anything to add?

Selflessness can easily be for a bad reason, sacrificing ones self for another is quite common in 40k by Chaos Cultists to summon daemons and such, it's not always am heroic action.

blood reaper wrote:
Selflessness can easily be for a bad reason, sacrificing ones self for another is quite common in 40k by Chaos Cultists to summon daemons and such, it's not always am heroic action.

From the perspective of the cultists it is. The real problem is that 40k has parodies of human beings, not human beings. The only thing I can think of to date that really touches on this would be Pawns of Chaos, which does have a Lord of Change sacrifice itself to save a planet from exterminatus (though the ending does have a lot of clear executive meddling, including Tzeench's big speech to the main character at the end about how his big plan being highjacked just made things more fun).

BaronIveagh wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.

Really? Why are there still so many white men around if every invasion failed?

Japan used to think the same thing. "Genghis Khan failed, what can these Americans possibly hope to do?"

White men didn't invade the new world. They migrated. Also, the new world was not "America" for a very long time.

Japan is an island... Khan and his armies rode on horses...

DeffDred wrote:
White men didn't invade the new world. They migrated.

Yes, in much the way the Nazis migrated into Jewish communities throughout Europe.

DeffDred wrote:
Also, the new world was not "America" for a very long time.

Japan is an island... Khan and his armies rode on horses...

Yes, because Amerigo Vespucci certainly wouldn't have sailed there in and published about it in 1503.

And your statement about the Mongol forces shows a staggering ignorance about the Mongol armies in Korea.

*Sighs*
Do this country/continent argument somewhere else. Please? This thread is meant for 40k daemons, not real-life history, ok?

Nothing positive comes from the warp...
It's managed to be even more inimical to humankind than regular space. It's so inimical it attacks humans every now and again to make sure they're paying attention...
It's like space Australia...

The votes say otherwise, mate.

Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...

Mynameisalie wrote:The votes say otherwise, mate.

Votes are opinion.

Your opinion is not always right.

BaronIveagh wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
White men didn't invade the new world. They migrated.

Yes, in much the way the Nazis migrated into Jewish communities throughout Europe.

DeffDred wrote:
Also, the new world was not "America" for a very long time.

Japan is an island... Khan and his armies rode on horses...

Yes, because Amerigo Vespucci certainly wouldn't have sailed there in and published about it in 1503.

And your statement about the Mongol forces shows a staggering ignorance about the Mongol armies in Korea.

By America, I mean the nation that declared independence from Britain.

Wow! Korean mongols had aircraft carriers and planes?! That's amazing!

purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...

On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:

Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.

Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion?
Where?
Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.

Mynameisalie wrote:

purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...

On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:

Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.

Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion?
Where?
Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.

It says it is a dark reflection of the material universe...
That implies that it is purely negative otherwise it would simply say reflection...
There have been other warp entities mentioned bar daemons and they have been somewhat horrific as well...

Mynameisalie wrote:

purplefood wrote:Yeah because votes can't possibly be wrong...

On the 40k wiki, the Immaterium is:

Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form.

Where in that does it say that the Warp only contains negative emotion?
Where?
Nowhere. Exactly. Ergo, positive Warp entities may and probably do exist in the 40k universe.

Right there.
Dark implies malign and unnatural.
Malign and unnatural is the opposite of positive. Ergo, there are not positive or good warp entities.

Dammit, I got ninja'd

Can anyone name a positive warp entity that isn't utterly evil?

I am a good ninja...

blood reaper wrote:Can anyone name a positive warp entity that isn't utterly evil?

wasn't there something called the hydra? It was supposedly a warp entity that didn't mean to harm people, it was just passing by.
However, iirc, its presence drove some astropath mad, who then sent an order (under the pretence that it came from an inquisitor) to declare an exterminatus on that world.

Implies. There is a heck of a lot of difference between implying something and something being something.
I have checked, and it does not say on Lexicanum, on the 40k wiki, not in the 6th ed rulebook or in the BL that the Warp that contains purely negative emotion. Daemons and the suchalike are created by a God's essence, or form themselves out of emotion. There is nothing against the theory that there is sufficient positive energy to form a benign Warp entity, however, it would be hunted and ultimately devoured by a stronger daemon or a chaos God. If there was a way to protect said benign entities from the stronger, malicious daemons then benign daemons are a real and entirely acceptable possibility.