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I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.

matsa13 wrote:I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.

Daemon is a name used to describe most warp entities, it's really just a description used due to the fact the nature of the entities and where they come from.

Probably they'd be called Angels. It's the same principle.

The proper term is 'void-denizen/void-predator of the Warp'...'angel', 'daemon', 'god', they all smack of superstitious lies.

Tadashi wrote:The proper term is 'void-denizen/void-predator of the Warp'...'angel', 'daemon', 'god', they all smack of superstitious lies.

Agreed, I imagine though Angel would only be a human term.

In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.

Calling it an angel would not only be cliche, but again unoriginal, and I'd imagine some daemons can take whatever form suits them best, so simply assuming daemons of a more neutral nature would be angelic isn't really right.

matsa13 wrote:I think that "Good deamons" would be possible but I don't think they would be called deamons. They would probably take another name like spirits or something but would still be formed from the same principles.

This is, of course what the Greek word 'daemon' literally means. Its negative connotations come solely from its usage in early Greek translations of the old testament as a term for various evil spirits/naughty angels/generic supernatural bad things.

blood reaper wrote:In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.

Just as the eldar say "She who thirsts" rather than "Slaanesh". But surely it has nothing to do with what they're called: Simply whether they exist or not.

p_gray99 wrote:

blood reaper wrote:In the game, the names of the daemons are those given by humans, it's possible that the other races have entirely different titles for the beings of the warp.

Just as the eldar say "She who thirsts" rather than "Slaanesh". But surely it has nothing to do with what they're called: Simply whether they exist or not.

The Eldar do that cause theyre afraid of the name.
In the WHFb WoC armybook they give some different names for the gods, but they are rather the same (Tzeentch-Tzchar)
Oh, and Khorne is maybe Khaine too.
Heh.

As daemons are the manifestation of mortal emotions, it is perfectly reasonable to say that they might represent "good" emotions.
On the other hand though, they might not be as strong as regular evil daemons, and get devoured.

Yes, so they'd need to be protected. I.e. the crystal I mentioned earlier. It's a containment system. It also allows daemons to stay in a physical form near them, if they aren't imprisoned. You know how daemons can't exist for a long time outside the Warp, correct? This crystal allows a daemon to stabilise a material form, and therefore remain in realspace, away from other daemons, safely. However, it does cut off a daemon's power to the Warp quite substantially.

...and it's back to magic crystals. This thread now firmly belongs in the ghetto of 'Dakka Fiction'.

And a renaming.

If you think about it, that's pretty much what the Emperor is now. Think about it, he resides in the warp, battling gods and casting blessing down on his people. Where do you think the Sisters get their lucky charms? It's not as direct as anger leads to hate, hate leads to Khorne, Khorne leads to "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD". But, the spirit is similiar.

Nitros14 wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Daemons represent emotion taken to its furthest extremes.

Do you know of any extreme emotion that is actually good?

Yeah. Compassion and Love, which are largely in the 40k universe, just never talked about or seen as they have become so surreal in the contrast of Grimdark. Case in point: You cannot truly despair without first losing something you feel strongly about, example: True love, freedom, life (yours or anothers), hope.

Lastly, the "Good" demons would be Living Saints empowered by the Emperor, or at least that's what people have been talking about when they talk about this subject.

Compassion and love taken to their furthest extremes are smothering and obsessive. Not what I'd call good.

If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.

FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.

Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.

Hope is a 'state of mind' according to some people as well, but it still powers Tzeench.

BaronIveagh wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:
If they are smothering and obsessive they are not true love or true compassion. If it's obsessive it is lust, not love, and clingy needy attachment rather than actual compassion. Completely different in both cases. I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.
That's my take it on it anyway.

Actually love can lead to obsession without being lust. They're two different, but similar emotions. Same with your weird idea that compassion leads to 'clingy needy attachment'. Compassion when taken to it's extreme leads to sacrificing one's self for others.

Hope is a 'state of mind' according to some people as well, but it still powers Tzeench.

Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.

Mynameisalie wrote:
Sacrificing one's self for others is a virtue; It's selflessness in it's highest form. If you are willing to save others by giving up your own life, it is a an admirable quality that everyone will remember you for.

Yes, but it's still an extreme state. Remember that virtues can be taken to extremes as well as vices.

Honor, for example, is a virtue. But it still feeds Khorne.

Yes. There are many benevolent beings which I consider Daemons. For example:
-The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host
-Saint Celestine (and living saints in general)
-Other individuals or objects in the lore who/which have been known to appear in order to warn or protect the Imperium and its citizens. For example the space hulk The Blade of Eternity, which seems to herald the coming of Chaos Space Marines in the systems it materializes into.

I can feel compassion for someone who is suffering, and I can feel true love for my wife, my children, nature etc without it becoming smothering and obsessive! That's pretty obvious. So I think instead of describing them as 'extreme emotions' it's more accurate to describe them as extreme desires. Lust, greed, selfishness, ambition, obsessiveness are desires. Love and compassion in their pure form are not desires (they are rather a state of consciousness, perception and understanding), so it would be impossible for Daemons to manifest and take form based on love and compassion.

That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.

Psienesis wrote:
That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.

As someone considered 'mentally abnormal' I resent the implication that I lack restraint. I'll have you know that it takes a tremendous amount of it to manage my condition in what people consider 'modern society'. I horrify psychologists. In the words of one researcher at YSU I am 'more intelligent than anyone giving him (me) tests' but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.

The fear of nuclear conflict is the only thing that keeps mankind from indulging in total war in this day and age. OMG we lost 6280 men (approx) since 9/11! The Horror! We should all give up now (according to the media, though which media depends on who's in the White House) I hate to see what modern America would say if faced with a real war. We lost that many in SIX MINUTES at Cold Harbor.

I'm not saying that mass casualty events are good, far from it. But in a real conflict they happen, gak blows up, people die. If the American people think that the war on terror has had terrible casualties, wait till China (or pick your foreign power) decides to invade.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Psienesis wrote:
That is because you are a rational human being, with psychological constraints on what you would consider obsessive behavior. However, as I'm sure you're aware, our world is full of people who lack such restraints. I believe the common phrase for them today is "helicopter parents" or "overprotective/overjealous" husbands or wives. Take those concepts and dial them up to 11. Now you have a Chaos God of Love.

As someone considered 'mentally abnormal' I resent the implication that I lack restraint. I'll have you know that it takes a tremendous amount of it to manage my condition in what people consider 'modern society'. I horrify psychologists. In the words of one researcher at YSU I am 'more intelligent than anyone giving him (me) tests' but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.

The fear of nuclear conflict is the only thing that keeps mankind from indulging in total war in this day and age. OMG we lost 6280 men (approx) since 9/11! The Horror! We should all give up now (according to the media, though which media depends on who's in the White House) I hate to see what modern America would say if faced with a real war. We lost that many in SIX MINUTES at Cold Harbor.

I'm not saying that mass casualty events are good, far from it. But in a real conflict they happen, gak blows up, people die. If the American people think that the war on terror has had terrible casualties, wait till China (or pick your foreign power) decides to invade.

So we've changed this to WW3 and terrorists?

Me thinks someone has been watching a bit too much Red Dawn.

One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.

BaronIveagh wrote:[...] but that I lack 'normal emotional responses to outside stimuli' and 'has an obsession with humanity's darker nature'.

Stop going to shrinks - you Americans do that way too often anyways. You sound like a perfectly normal human being that has just received a huge dose of cynism and pragmatism from watching/reading too much news. If that is considered "abnormal" in your country, that is only the case because the majority is living in happy-go-lucky-land, for some reason having managed to preserve their optimism as the world slowly goes to gak.

Don't make me feel like I should go to a shrink, too.

DeffDred wrote:
One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.

Really? Why are there still so many white men around if every invasion failed?

Japan used to think the same thing. "Genghis Khan failed, what can these Americans possibly hope to do?"

BaronIveagh wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
One does not "invade" America. All who have tried have failed.

Really? Why are there still so many white men around if every invasion failed?

Japan used to think the same thing. "Genghis Khan failed, what can these Americans possibly hope to do?"

They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.

English Assassin wrote:...and it's back to magic crystals. This thread now firmly belongs in the ghetto of 'Dakka Fiction'.

There are 'magic crystals' in 40k...Coteaz smashed one in a Conclave once.

Mark my words, I fully expect when the emperor dies he becomes an actual god and then we will see the new codex " Codex: Angels "

Don't think matt ward won't. He can bring back the primarchs that way.

Tadashi wrote:
They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.

So what happened to those hundred thousand men on Okinawa, then?


And the United States should be no better then the Nazis in the eyes of the world. After all, what Hitler did was a speck on the ass of what first Spain, then England, then the United States did. He just did it faster.

But then, no one in the world has the balls to suggest that the US be divided up like Palestine was and handed back over to the natives.

As someone considered 'mentally abnormal' I resent the implication that I lack restraint.

Brush up on your literacy, hoss. I didn't imply that you lack restraint, I flat out stated that you were in possession of them.

Psienesis wrote:
Brush up on your literacy, hoss. I didn't imply that you lack restraint, I flat out stated that you were in possession of them.

You flat out stated that I was in possession of restraints? Well, technically they belong to the state of Pennsylvania, but I am in possession of them...

Tadashi wrote:
They never invaded my country...the Emperor basically told us to let them in. Had they invaded, they'd have to wipe all of us out...making them no better than Nazis in the eyes of the world.

Yep, Fiction.

And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Yep, Fiction.

And how is it not surprising that you get along with the anime-cats-worshipping-crystals dude...

Technically he's right, if you only consider the main islands of Japan. And as a fan of anime and crystals (and many other minerals, but most particularly fossils) but not a fan of cats, I'm vaguely offended.