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Given none of us are representative of the average customer demographic, I don't think our personal preferences are representative of what does and does not sell a faction.

all we've got to go on is how GW have approached other eeevil factions in fiction, and it's clear they find the most success with humanising inhuman characters like the nightlords to sell successfully.

So again, as the question was asked, GW will care about the DE when they find a way to sell them to a mass market in a way that connects them enough to make them palatable and sellable in quantities GW finds acceptable.

90s edgelords are not a large enough market segment.

SamusDrake wrote:
I think something that would give Drukhari fans a big boost is a Commorragh game. The Running Man with Drukhari Stalkers, or maybe a beefed up "Gangs of Commorragh". Perhaps a campaign supplement for Necromunda, with rules for Drukhari, Harlequins and Corsairs.

I think a Xenos book for Necromunda would be just spiffy. Besides various flavours of Eldar, and maybe even the Eye of Selene, one of the hives had to be blowed up because of too many Orks.

Too many Orks on Necromunda sounds too comical not to follow up on.

Background has always been a weakness of Dark Eldar.

Note I am not saying that which exists is bad.

Just that when they first came out? What background? For it was the dark days of early 3rd Edition

By the time their next full Codex came out, a much better job was done. But it just doesn’t seem to have been built on since then. They remain feeling like an army with a couple of fanatical studio supporters battling against a tide of utter indifference. Not a specific allegation, but the impression that I get.

I dare say another issue is the sporadic support. As covered much earlier by myself in this thread? They’ve not exactly hurt for kits as such. But like the previous fate of Craftworld Eldar, it’s been replacing existing kits, over adding to the range.

Now, plasticification is, to me, a good thing.

But it has left the range with no WOW! moment. That shiny brand new never before seen and sometimes never even hinted at New Thing which brings fresh attention and with luck, new devotees.

Which again, adds to the impression outlined above.

What I think they need is a Necron Job. It’s time to expand the raiders (back when Necrons had the merest handful of units) to This Is That Culture Going To War And Meaning It.

That allows design space outside of “small, temporarily allied raiding parties with high tech but ultimately modest toys”.

Show us what happens when Vect decides it’s time for a mass cull of the lower, dull species.

Quite - what was the last actually new thing? The Voidraven 10ish years ago? And that wasn't entirely new new, it was more filling in a gap where there were previously rules but no model... I suppose Malys would also count I guess - did she have a dedicated model at some point in the past? But other than that all they've had has been resculpts of existing stuff, and not even as many of them as they by rights probably need.

Malys is a returning character, but first time model. Well. I’m pretty sure.

Dais of Destruction would be a welcome return. Spesh given GW’s love for big showy centrepieces. Make it a big chunky chunkkerson. Well. By Dark Eldar standards.

I previously compared their kit refreshes to Craftworlders. But that was perhaps a flawed comparison.

We should perhaps better judge their treatment by comparing to their 3rd Ed Stablemates as debuting armies in the Tau bd Necrons.

Tau? Have had loads. Loads and loads and loads and loads AND EFFING LOADS. Entirely new toys, lots of refreshes. Spesh now the Kroot have been spit polished up nicely.

Necrons? So many new units. C’Tan refreshes are gorgeous. Destroyers started as a singular unit cult, and now come in multiple flavours. Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Praetorians, all the Canoptek toys.

Again, I am not criticising what the Dark Eldar do have. Despite many kits now seriously knocking on in age? They don’t bloody look it, so good was their initial refresh. And gain, mass plasticisation is always welcome.

But…come on. Play fair. Expand their horizons. And there’s so much potential.

Why not a Haemonculi Flesh Golem? Something truly horrific in which the creator is stitched in as the brain and central nervous system. Maybe with a Pain Booth type thing mounted in a cavernous chest cavity. Give it many and various hideous weapon options which can be tailored to reflect the “pilot’s” current obsessions.

But most of all, as I said? Show us what it looks like when they go to war.

What horrific weapons of mass murder from before the fall might they still retain? Show us how the weapon lineages of the Craftworlds can be twisted into something horrific.

Don’t worry, this would all stand alongside the existing units, so I’m not advocating for changing the shape of the army’s soul.

A no brainer is a dual kit Tantalus/Dias of Destruction. I think GW could do this, though it would likely be a challenging kit to design. But if they're the best in the industry they should be up to the challenge.

I do like that the Dark Eldar are raiders and a bit "high tech rag tag" though. It's a unique feel for them and I wouldn't like to lose it.

I agree that the 3e era was poor background wise but the 5e book is really great.

There is part of me though that thinks - can't a range just be complete? Give DE back the stuff they've lost, maybe you could add a couple more things, but does every range need to be bloated out to the size of Space Marines?

I was happy that when I bought into Dark Eldar it was mostly still the older kits. Because they're really modular and "proper" kits to my mind, still look great and have a fantastic aesthetic (except for Covens, a miss for me there). I got a bit of everything and have what I consider to be a "classic" dark eldar army. I'd like a Dias of Destruction mostly for Dawn of War nostalgia (I like to put the super unit from Dawn of War 1 in any faction I build from that game) but I'd kitbash that if needs be.

I'm not a DE superfan though - I generally don't like Elves in fiction very much and what I like about DE is how they subvert a bunch of the expected Tolkien tropes into more scary Celtic elf mythology.

I get what you mean about a range being complete, and I don’t entirely disagree.

The Marine approach has for a while felt like adding things for the sake of adding things. Like there’s a budget that has to be spent.

But…if like Dark Eldar, your range is allowed to, and I don’t use this word hyperbolically, stagnate? You remain stuck with essentially the same tools to tackle the same problems, and often new problems too.

Well Added Units can expand what a given army can do, and how it goes about it. It can help prevent a single army, such as oh I dunno, Dark Eldar to pick one entirely at random, from being boring and predictable.

Moreover? It gives the wider community a chance to discover and exploit new synergies. A new unit or two can lead to freshly potential unit combinations and variant play styles.

So, yes. There is a time when you just need to leave an army be (Marines really won’t benefit from new units, because they already cover every base except chaff units). But Dark Eldar are, in my eyes, absolutely nowhere near that stage.

Whilst I’m not advocating for One Hit Wonders, and never will? Dark Eldar lack reliable threats against Super Heavies. And in game a where Knights come in two flavours and decent variety? That’s no good. Yeah, you could do things with three Ravagers, and as many other Dark Lances as you can squeeze in. But absolutely everything you can equip a Dark Lance to is Easy Prey for a Knight. Especially now you can freely split fire.

Where my knowledge is utterly lacking though is how Dark Lances perform against Regular Tanks. Back when you only needed to penetrate a tank to mess it up, and Lance capped enemy armour at AV14? They were pretty damned reliable. So whilst yes they’ve always been squishy in return? A cautious setup and first round of shooting could put reliable dents in the enemy’s Big Scary Tank, such as a Landraider.

But now you’ve degrading profiles and multiple wounds? I do worry DE have lost that first strike punch somewhat.

Happy and hoping to post this comment and be shortly much better informed

 SgtEeveell wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
I think something that would give Drukhari fans a big boost is a Commorragh game. The Running Man with Drukhari Stalkers, or maybe a beefed up "Gangs of Commorragh". Perhaps a campaign supplement for Necromunda, with rules for Drukhari, Harlequins and Corsairs.

I think a Xenos book for Necromunda would be just spiffy. Besides various flavours of Eldar, and maybe even the Eye of Selene, one of the hives had to be blowed up because of too many Orks.

I agree with all of this... But I'd also like to reiterate that the Crusade rules for Drukhari ARE a Necromunda type game in Commorragh. I actually refer to Drukhari Crusade rules as Drukharimunda. They are hands down THE BEST Crusade rules in the game. Honourable mention to GSC, Tau, and Nids... But Drukhari still win.

But I agree that, good as they are, they could use expansion: a trading post, and better incorporation of other flavours of Eldar. And of course, if you want to use them in ACTUAL Necromunda, you would need something besides the dex's Drukharimunda Crusade rules to do it.

By the time their next full Codex came out, a much better job was done. But it just doesn’t seem to have been built on since then.

Yes and no. We don't have a lot of movement in the way of big metaplots. They built up the Khaine's Gate thing and then basically resolved that when Ynnari came onto the scene. We've got the politics with Vect, Malys, and Lelith going on and getting mild development in recent codices and novels. Kheradruakh apparently yoinked a big chunk of Commorragh into Aelindrach, but it has barely received a mention since Fracture of Biel-Tan. So stuff is happening, but GW rarely circles back to check in on how that stuff is developing.

On the other hand, we've gotten quite a bit of fun little snapshots of specific quirky corners of the dark city with the various subfactions getting their blurbs in the last few editions' codices, novels exploring some specific factions and personalities, etc. Basically, GW/BL seem more comfortable using Commorragh as a mostly-stagnant setting where they can play around with disposable villains of the week rather than advancing some big overarching plot, and that's honestly maybe my preference. (Despite how much I love Malys and want to see her wreck Vect.)

What I think they need is a Necron Job. It’s time to expand the raiders (back when Necrons had the merest handful of units) to This Is That Culture Going To War And Meaning It.

Personally, I don't think I want that. Part of the fun of the drukhari is that they're seldom actually trying hard. They aren't fighting your Ultramarines because they're taking things seriously; they're fighting your smurfs because they're bored and the combat drugs feel better when the enemy doesn't die to the first stab wound. And further, the faction is built around this sort of "personality" that I'm not sure the existing range would really feel right with "serious mode" drukhari. Like, pleasure barges and half-naked gladiators would presumably get swapped out with closed-topped tanks and suits of power armor etc.

I don't want my drukhari to "take things seriously" and then lose battles anyway because they can't be allowed to outshine the other factions too much; I want their cackling hedonistic sillyness to be the whole vibe of the army. Don't give me closed-topped tanks. Bring back drug dispenser wargear that I can risk overdosing on while my raider zooms halfway across the table in a single turn.

What horrific weapons of mass murder from before the fall might they still retain? Show us how the weapon lineages of the Craftworlds can be twisted into something horrific.

We see Vect whip out this sort of thing from time to time, and frankly it's usually kind of boring. Have a cool conflict set up? Womp womp. He opened a blackhole in your commander's bathroom. Game over.

Having drukhari get serious is kind of like having necrons get serious. If they actually started whipping out the super weapons and acting intelligently, they'd be too disruptive to the rest of the setitng.

Whilst I’m not advocating for One Hit Wonders, and never will? Dark Eldar lack reliable threats against Super Heavies. And in game a where Knights come in two flavours and decent variety? That’s no good. Yeah, you could do things with three Ravagers, and as many other Dark Lances as you can squeeze in. But absolutely everything you can equip a Dark Lance to is Easy Prey for a Knight. Especially now you can freely split fire.

Where my knowledge is utterly lacking though is how Dark Lances perform against Regular Tanks. Back when you only needed to penetrate a tank to mess it up, and Lance capped enemy armour at AV14? They were pretty damned reliable. So whilst yes they’ve always been squishy in return? A cautious setup and first round of shooting could put reliable dents in the enemy’s Big Scary Tank, such as a Landraider.

I haven't faced a ton of superheavies with my drukhari recently, but I feel like we're not entirely without tools. Haywire weapons are pretty good into any vehicle. Lances need to be applied en masse, but they are forcing knights to take invuln saves and then do decent damage when they get through. One of our detachments gives all our kabal/merc units lethal hits. Another lets incubi wound big knights on 5s. The Reaper exists if you use legends.

Against regular tanks, dark lances work just fine. You still have to overcommit a little because single-shot weapons are swingy, and they can't one-hit-KO most vehicles like they used to, but they're basically slightly better lascannons.

Honestly, I don't think our "first strike punch" is where we're lacking; it's everywhere else. Back in the day, playing dark eldar was all about figuring out how to tie up 75% of the army while you killed the other 25%. You had to think about how to take enemy units hostage to protect your wyches from shooting and/or keep those enemies from shooting something else. You had to play the range game with your night shields and 36" lances to kill exposed enemies while hiding from return fire. You had to think about which tanks you were going to haywire to silence them for a turn while your incubi ran up to butcher something right next to said tanks. You had to think about which raiders you wanted to flat-out or jink to keep them alive and which raiders you wanted to leave unprotected so that their passengers could deal a death blow.

Since 9th edition (if not earlier), we've kind of gone all in on just being a trading pieces army. We pop out of hiding, kill whatever we went after, and then we automatically lose whichever units we committed unless our opponents made it possible for us to hide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

There is part of me though that thinks - can't a range just be complete? Give DE back the stuff they've lost, maybe you could add a couple more things, but does every range need to be bloated out to the size of Space Marines?

Honestly, the 5th edition range/codex felt pretty fleshed-out. I'd be open to more/new units, but just giving back the stuff we've lost over the years (including some wargear options) would probably do just as much if not more for the faction than some new units.

I rarely find myself feeling that drukhari suffer from an inability to fill a niche. Generally it's more that they're suffering from units no longer being able to do the jobs they used to do or the core rules changing in ways that the faction as a whole is uncomfortable with. (Mostly thinking the hole standing-in-magic-circles thing here, but also the loss of speed-as-defense mechanics like flatout and jink or even just the overall reduced speed of our skimmers over the years.)

I feel like the Faction was fairly complete in 2011 - but that was then it is now. Just a modest 15 years later.

I mean I'm biased. I am a DE player. I have a DE collection. I'd quite like to buy more DE, but there's not much point. For example they bought out new Incubi. Did I buy any? No. Because I have 10 already. Sure I could maybe run 15. And you can argue that finecast is bad. But... my minis are fine.

They could do a complete range reset with new Kabalites, Wyches, Raiders, Venoms etc. But its a bit pointless for me because I already have those. Unless I'm going to make some list with 40 kabalites or wyches etc I don't need more.

But for new players it doesn't matter.

I mean I imagine its how the forum's Ork players feel about the prospect of a big Ork release. I mean a new Deff Dread might be a cool model. But if you already have 2-3, its a bit redundant.

Heh, I tend to dread any range refreshes because for me it tends to mean not buying any more models at all because they increase the scale every time these days. If they did refresh DE they'd all be on 29,57mm bases or something.

I personally don't get why you need to make every faction sympathetic. I mean to an extent maybe a victim of a tragedy but we already have that with the Fall of the Eldar and the fact if Dark Eldar don't revel in excess and feeding slaanesh with other souls then they're souls get eaten away. When dark eldar have a final death they get super owned by slaanesh and they have no soul stones so they're in the worst Hell imaginable. Also it's been established they don't exactly want to raid all the time but they have to or they suffer a fate worse than death.

I never got the make every villain sympathetic thing. People seem to forget anything done all the time becomes a massive trope. Sure you have the mustache twirling villain and maybe some of them don't like it to an extent but they were bred into this over thousands of years. Culturally dark eldar probably don't think of things like humans or even normal eldar. Normal eldar can't express emotions too much or slaanesh comes after them. Also dark eldar can't use psychic powers anymore and don't get me started on what living in a crime ridden always dark mega-city would do to someone.

I also don't get how dark eldar need to be fully reimagined. We do need new units like monsters and mad flesh creations for covens, new beasts, new bikes, crazier snipers, weird weapons that can effect their enemies, Fear powers (that yes make even space marines quiver in Fear), more speed, more stealth and stealth aircraft.

I just don't get why we even have to know much about any alien or daemons or heretic faction. I prefer the perspective of an imperial citizen or imperial guardsman in old stories that would look at necrons slaughtering their battle hardened veteran troops like it was nothing. Make aliens horrific, mysterious and ALIEN again because to a normal human that's what they are. Even make marines both chaos and normal and even sisters of battle look supernatural. The imperials are superstition. Play into the superstition society and perspective they have. Like seriously i don't need to sympathize over a hive tyrant or gaunt (as funny as that sounds) and tyranids are still popular enough.

-------

Edit:

Like you're telling me a faction that has a Plague of Becoming where a super vain archon unleashed a plague on a world that forced every inhabitant to have his face and the dark eldar that got a special "clique" of beautiful ones in the Dark City that would wear their special flesh parts and were getting infected by the gene stealer cults? Then there's the story where some dark eldar were "shaped" into humans and instructed imperial guard's command to attack the ynnari along with dark eldar? Like seriously you can't get on board with all these silly or crazy stories. Without dark eldar and orks wh40k would be devoid of humor i swear. Don't even get me started on how inventive the lore can be with them vs how they actually play on the tabletop.

Back on to mustache twirling villains are you saying you'd never enjoy a silly over the top villain that says something like "YES!!! AND I'D DO IT AGAIN AND KILL PUPPIES WHILE I'M AT IT!!! HAHAHAHA!!!" *runs away with cape fluttering in the wind* Like you don't enjoy a silly villain that has all the best cool gak and absurd schemes. If anything they should push harder into it.

Tyel wrote:I feel like the Faction was fairly complete in 2011 - but that was then it is now. Just a modest 15 years later.

Weirdly, I feel like our army was way more complete back in 2011. I'm pretty sure our overall number of datasheets has gone down considerably since then (especially if you count the named characters), and wargear options used to mean that a lot of those units could feel entirely different depending on how you equipped them.

[qutoe]I mean I'm biased. I am a DE player. I have a DE collection. I'd quite like to buy more DE, but there's not much point. For example they bought out new Incubi. Did I buy any? No. Because I have 10 already. Sure I could maybe run 15. And you can argue that finecast is bad. But... my minis are fine.

They could do a complete range reset with new Kabalites, Wyches, Raiders, Venoms etc. But its a bit pointless for me because I already have those. Unless I'm going to make some list with 40 kabalites or wyches etc I don't need more.

But for new players it doesn't matter.

I mean I imagine its how the forum's Ork players feel about the prospect of a big Ork release. I mean a new Deff Dread might be a cool model. But if you already have 2-3, its a bit redundant.

If there had been models for all the units in the 5th ed dex, I'd have entertained a "the range is complete" argument (though still probably would have disagreed).

But we never had a Kheradruahk, Sliscuss, Sathonyx, biker archon, biker Succubus.

And sure, I'm fine converting... But if you're going to create 1001 Marine units nobody asked for, then screw you, I shouldn't have to convert.

 PenitentJake wrote:
If there had been models for all the units in the 5th ed dex, I'd have entertained a "the range is complete" argument (though still probably would have disagreed).

But we never had a Kheradruahk, Sliscuss, Sathonyx, biker archon, biker Succubus.

And sure, I'm fine converting... But if you're going to create 1001 Marine units nobody asked for, then screw you, I shouldn't have to convert.

Actually, 5th was when we lost the biker versions of characters. Inexplicably removing datasheets from drukhari is an ancient and time-honored tradition!

Huh. Well don't I feel dumb.

I always liked Drukhari, but only took the plunge to buy them at the tag end of 8th. I just pulled out the ancient 3rd ed dex from storage; I don't think I ever owned the 5th... Or if I did, I probably left it in Alberta when I moved back to Ontario.

What made it the right time to buy in was the ability to build a decent army with the Poison Blade box, Blood of the Phoenix and the old Wych-heavy start collecting box.

When the Combat Patrol box with the Raider and Ravager dropped, it got better. And then there was Piety and Pain and the new Coven Combat Patrol.

With all that boxed set awesomeness, I only ever had to buy a handful of single kits- mostly just the resin stuff when they announced range rotation was coming.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
If there had been models for all the units in the 5th ed dex, I'd have entertained a "the range is complete" argument (though still probably would have disagreed).

But we never had a Kheradruahk, Sliscuss, Sathonyx, biker archon, biker Succubus.

And sure, I'm fine converting... But if you're going to create 1001 Marine units nobody asked for, then screw you, I shouldn't have to convert.

Actually, 5th was when we lost the biker versions of characters. Inexplicably removing datasheets from drukhari is an ancient and time-honored tradition!

Yeah they did it to skaven a bit too with skaven-slaves and slings on said models (not that anybody ever really needed slings since they couldn't hit much). The new clanrat models don't even have spears. Take a wild guess what's probably next on the cutting board with "No Model No Rules." GW has a weird hatred for dark eldar on that subject though.

Btw did you read the rest of my post's edit? I was editing it just after you posted so you probably didn't see it in time to comment or maybe you did in which case never mind.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
If there had been models for all the units in the 5th ed dex, I'd have entertained a "the range is complete" argument (though still probably would have disagreed).

But we never had a Kheradruahk, Sliscuss, Sathonyx, biker archon, biker Succubus.

And sure, I'm fine converting... But if you're going to create 1001 Marine units nobody asked for, then screw you, I shouldn't have to convert.

Actually, 5th was when we lost the biker versions of characters. Inexplicably removing datasheets from drukhari is an ancient and time-honored tradition!

Yeah they did it to skaven a bit too with skaven-slaves and slings on said models (not that anybody ever really needed slings since they couldn't hit much). The new clanrat models don't even have spears. Take a wild guess what's probably next on the cutting board with "No Model No Rules." GW has a weird hatred for dark eldar on that subject though.

Btw did you read the rest of my post's edit? I was editing it just after you posted so you probably didn't see it in time to comment or maybe you did in which case never mind.

Agreed that silly moustache twirling cartoon drukhari can be a lot of fun and that GW shouldn't be afraid to lean into it. Although drukhari can *also* be taken in other directions. They've got the cool dark fey thing going on. They've kind of got ganger vibes, but on a larger scale. You *can* zoom in and make them vaguely semi-sympathetic from time to time (Mor from the Path series or the shaderunner from VoidScarred or arguably Lelith from QoK.) So while drukhari can and should be comfortable leaning into their humor, it's not the only direction you can take them.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Btw did you read the rest of my post's edit?

Yes, and I agree with much of your post: I don't need or want sympathetic Drukhari myself... But I also think Wyldhunt has a point about how it's nice for people who want to do it to be able to do it. I personally like the Drukhari BECAUSE they are pure evil... Or because they can be if that's how a player wants them to be. If I was forced to swallow a sympathetic Drukhari because a GW bigwig decided that everyone needed to be relatable, I'd quit not only Drukhari but the game itself. I would continue to monitor from a distance like I did when I sat out 6th and 7th, waiting for the moment when the pendulum swung back around and GW came to their senses; in the case of the last sit out, I was monitoring for a) the return of GSC and b) proper respect for Sisters.

The one piece of your post I DON'T agree with is this: "I just don't get why we even have to know much about any alien or daemons or heretic faction. I prefer the perspective of an imperial citizen or imperial guardsman" - personally, I think that's exactly what's wrong with 40k. Now, I should also say at this point that I am pretty skeptical of treating BL stuff as official "Lore" - I tend to ignore a lot of it because bolter porn/ ALL SPACE MARINES ALL THE TIME really, really pisses me off.

Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Ascension Day" on the other hand was a freaking masterpiece, and I think he should write ALL of GW's non-imperial BL stuff.

Adrian Tchaikovsky is brilliant. His Children Of Time series is some of the best sci-fi I've ever read. I actually found Ascension Day something of a let-down, I kind of expected more from him. It was just a bit simple.