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Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.

The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P) making them one of the most versatile tanks in the game.

Not to mention a Squadron of LRBT = Dead Nob Bikers/Other Horrible Gribbly Unit

But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.

Gwar! wrote:H.B.M.C You seem to be misreading Lumbering behemoth rule.
It doesn't let you move and fire ordnance, because you could do that anyway (assuming it wasn't barrage) what it lets you do is Move 6" and Fire your turret PLUS 1 Main and all Defensive Weapons. So you can move and Shoot the turret plus your Hull Lascannon for example.

And as for commissars being worse... they are most certainly not.
Ld9 or Ld10 with Stubborn and a Reroll is 10000% better than fearless and taking over 9000 No Retreat! Wounds.

I'm sorry, your point on Lumbering Behemoth doesn't make sense. You maybe double your mobile tank-killing power if you're foolish enough to buy the hull lascannon. You absolutely do not double your firepower if you keep the heavy bolter (regardless of target).

I agree with you, however, on Commissars. The ability to take them anywhere and have them not be ICs, stubborn 9 re-roll, and ability to affect multiple squads through the platoon rules make them far more useful in my eyes than they used to be.

Gwar! wrote:Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.

And we could do that before, and we were faster at it too. Now we can do it and fire a Lascannon or Heavy Bolter.

Yay?

Gwar! wrote:The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P)

Either a Heavy Bolter - a drop in the ocean - or a Lascannon, a weapon that has always been ill-matched with the various Russ turrets except the Vanquisher, which no one would be foolish enough to take in the first place. Yes, it's a 'fact' that they can move, fire the turret and fire one other gun... but why? If you're moving to get away you're slower, and if you're moving just to shoot... then why move at all?

Gwar! wrote:But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.

Why would you bother with a Punisher? 24" range, wounds Orks on 3's, and they get their save. Eradicator does a far better job, and it's cheaper.

I think we can all agree that the Guard codex is both awesome and a big steamy pile.

Damn Guard -Grumble-

Also: SNAKES ON A PLANE!

Is that random blurb link an attempt at avoiding something?

H.B.M.C. wrote: It actually made them slower with no appreciable gain in firepower. I don't know why people seem to think that Lumbering Behemoth allows you to move and shoot everything - it doesn't - it allows you to shoot Ordnance along with other guns, assuming you could fire the guns normally. So if you move (and now they're slower at that), you can only fire defensive weapons plus your turret (whatever your turret may be). So if you have 3 Heavy Bolters (and pay the wonderfully pricey 20 points for them), you... can't fire them.

As others have pointed out, you were wrong on this one. It allows you to shoot ordnance + defensive weaponry + 1 main weapon on the move, which is for all intents and purposes an increase in firepower on the move. Negligible? Appreciable? It's a plus. Shooting a battlecannon and a lascannon at a tank or MC is better than shooting only one. Shooting a battle cannon and three HB's (while stationary of course) at an Ork mob is definitively much better than shooting only one or the other. Also, if you're going to shoot at all the LR isn't any slower, so mentioning both in the same sentence is misleading.

At the end of the day, LB is a benefit and standard LR MBT's are better than before.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes, and let's take a look at what benefit there might be from moving...

Why would we take a look at it? Don't tell me you don't know what benefits it might have. You argued that there would be no appreciable gain in firepower on the move.

The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish. I really don't know where you all get those cover saves from.

Ok I just wanna check with all ya'll to make sure I am not mad.

Orders do not need LOS, correct? So long as the unit is within range the officer can be hiding behind a titan/wall of chimeras and still issue orders fine?

And that Double-Ones means a second unit auto passes a test for an extra free order?

Actually, i was confused on the double 1 as well.

The wording could be read as:

-The unit that rolled the double 1 gets a second order free
OR
-The commanding unit gets an extra auto-passed order on another unit

Not sure which it is.

The way I read It is that another unit gets a free order AND auto Passes that order.

I assume it was made to auto pass to avoid the freakish statistical impossibility where you roll so many snake eyes you end up with more "free" orders than you have squads.

Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?

Necros wrote:Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?

Yeah thats correct. This even applies to units that failed an order. So you cant go "First order to them, oops I failed, send another order" but instead must go "First order to them, oops I failed because i didn't buy a vox caster. Silly me! Now I cant issue another order to them. BAWWWW!"

here's some fun ideas from BOLS on mixing some witch/demonhunters with new IG stuff

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/04/40k-tactica-by-authority-of-immortal.html

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:At the end of the day, LB is a benefit and standard LR MBT's are better than before.

My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'. I'm not arguing that Russes aren't better (a tank being able to fire all its guns is a good thing - pity more of 40K hasn't caught onto the idea of tanks firing all their weapons yet), I'm arguing that the LB ability doesn't make them broken. As far as being 'wrong' about the LB rule, I know what it does. A few pages back I even quoted the damn rule word for word. I worded it incorrectly here, perhaps I should have just requoted it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would we take a look at it? Don't tell me you don't know what benefits it might have. You argued that there would be no appreciable gain in firepower on the move.

Not enough of a gain to make the unit broken, that's my point. Notice I was replying to Gwar, the one who said that it was 'broken'. Context helps Plexus. Look who I'm speaking to to work out why I'm saying what I'm saying.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish.

I think you mean 'situational'. And it's no more situational than movement.

Oh wow, I just noticed you can give orders to allies.... Wow

Finally got my grubby paws on a copy. (Not exposing my source, sorry. Cover art is arse, but we knew that.)

Inspired tactics hinges on the no need to test. Its most definitely additional, and automatically passes, so some other squad gets to giggle.

As for Vehicle Squadrons, its a 1:6 chance of being immobilized on a glance...so vehicle squadrons run like 4e vehicles. Glances are fatal 16%, penetrations 50%. Move along, nothing to see. Guard dealt with that before.

Lumbering behemoth really isn't going to change most guard lists anyway since moving 12" hasn't been a likely thing for a non-fast model. The uncomfortably close melta unit now gets shot at and changes target responses rather than application of the tank.

The Vendetta is better than some DE Ravagers at about the same price, but not enough better to really astound. A squadron strikes me as having a fair chance at being a titan killer (for those that play apocalypse and see such things.) Its an overhyped new toy, has a huge footprint, and with that base is near impossible to hide. Maybe I face too many skimmers.

HMBC, JHDD, et. al. have a solid point that there's no real change to the guard. The elites (by and large) aren't worth taking. The troops became an enhanced gunline at the cost of the dumbest heavy weapons ever.

@LSP :
I don't agree that the Russ got any better. It got more expensive in general and finally got the variants treadheads have been dying to field. The Variants are what is better than the standard Russ rather than the afterthought of a free heavy bolter.

So does anyone still think a Infantry Heavy army is viable?

Gwar! wrote:

Necros wrote:Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?

Yeah thats correct. This even applies to units that failed an order. So you cant go "First order to them, oops I failed, send another order" but instead must go "First order to them, oops I failed because i didn't buy a vox caster. Silly me! Now I cant issue another order to them. BAWWWW!"

Forgive me but that doesn't make sense. How can "this", ie. snake eyes apply to a unit that fails an order? With snake eyes it doesn't fail. Also, if every squad can only receive one order, what "another order" are you referring to? Afaik, they're not eligible for another order either way.

I have read over 72 of these pages ( I skipped 5 that I didn't care for). Would some one be so kind as to enlighten be as to a few questons on HQ's

Can a CCS out fit the 4 guards mens as it does currently (ie with 4 special weapons, I know all the other wierd abilities?)
How many orders can that CCS send out a turn? is it a function of the squads in range or is it limited by the officer?
Is summary execution gone?
Do commisars take up elite or HQ slots (sionce they are no longer IC's?

Thank you and I am sorry if these questions have already been answered.

I am actually happy to see that commisars now come standard with BP's and that conscripts are stil 4 points and 20-50!

H.B.M.C.- It is not my position that this codex is broken. I never said such. I was only arguing that the codex is an improvment as opposed to a leteral shift or even the implied back-slide that some posters where making it seem.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Either a Heavy Bolter - a drop in the ocean - or a Lascannon, a weapon that has always been ill-matched with the various Russ turrets except the Vanquisher, which no one would be foolish enough to take in the first place. Yes, it's a 'fact' that they can move, fire the turret and fire one other gun... but why? If you're moving to get away you're slower, and if you're moving just to shoot... then why move at all?

Because it allows you to move and bring twice the tank stoping shots. It may seem foriegn to you but you'll actually be allowed jockey for non obscured shots. Also from what I've seen here lumbering behemoth only slows the tank on the final 6" of a possible 12" move. The first six inches you move normally.

I know its sad that a gun that was useless on the tank before is now able to function anytime that you can fired the Ordinance. That must be a terrible burden to bear.



@Ph34r- A S8 shot is never a waste against a tank.


I'll reply more later bur duties call IRL.

Fattimus_maximus wrote:So does anyone still think a Infantry Heavy army is viable?

I'm no rules/tourney expert but I say yes. There's still tons of options for your men. Even if you don't like the HW teams now there's still nice options for specialist squads, vets, etc. And you can have so many men in just 1 platoon now it's silly. I've always done more tanks / less men but now I'm going for half & half. But if you want a lot of men I'd take 2 company commands and a few small platoons instead of 1 big one, that way you can get a lot of officers out there to give orders

Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night. Played against an Eldar army. Tried some stuff different from my usual, wanted to see if my thoughts on how it would tie together would work. Biggest difference is that I usually field lascannon/plasma gun in my line squads and I went heavy bolter/plasma guns instead.

My list, 1750:
HQ: Company Command, Vox, standard, autocannon, Astropath, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance

Elite: Psyker Battle Squad, four extra psykers, stock chimera

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Heavy: Squadron, 2 x Griffons

Heavy: Leman Russ Executioner, Plasma sponsons

Heavy: Leman Russ Vanquisher, lascannon, Pask

DH Allies:
Inq Lord, mystics, etc
Callidus

Scenario was Dawn of War, 2 Obj.
Not gonna worry about a blow-by-blow, just gonna hit a few highlights and lessons learned.
Master of Ordnance, no good. Sounds great, a infantry model upgrade that shoots a Bassie shot every turn if he doesn't move. Drawback, always scatters, even on a hit. Worse, on an arrow it scatters 3d6. Five shots, not a single enemy model hit.
Astropath/Fleet Officer. Good. +1 to my Reserve rolls, -1 to his. Slowed down his Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, letting me pick apart his deployed stuff a little more before having to deal with them.

Mobbed up squads. You'll notivce the one commissar and vox in each platoon. By mobbing up, the 27 man squad is now Stubborn LD 9, with vox rerolls for orders. A Striking Scorpion squad got into one of the platoons and the combat went until all the IG were dead. Lesson learned. Power Weapons. Sgts and Commissars can have power weapons, and have lots of ablative wounds. Had I had PW on the four models allowed them, I would have won the combat in two rounds, wiping him out. Even against Marines, 12 PW attacks a turn ain't anything to sneeze at. Voxes, definite good. Rerolling Orders LD tests. Only question is does the vox allow a unit giving itself an order a reroll...... ...?

Psyker Battle Squad. Good! Kept them in the Chimera, moved it up 6" a turn, cast the negative leadership power (8 psykers, -1 LD for every psyker in the squad), every turn one of his units was LD 2........... .... Just for giggles I cast it on the Avatar the turn the Callidus arrived, then hit the Avatar with the Neural Shredder. ST 8 vs LD 2, wounded on a 2+, Instant Death (Avatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior). But he made his Invul save so I had to shoot him down with heavy bolters and plasma guns. Last turn, hit the squad sitting on his obj with a -8 LD, caused enough wounds to cause a Morale test, off they run. Once people learn what these guys can do, they will be a prime target. But that means they're not shooting other stuff, so I'm OK with that. Can't even see using the other large blast, variable AP power when this is available. Too bad it doesn't carry over into the enemy turn........ ...

Orders:
Bring It Down. Good. Twin Linked shooting at vehicles/Monstrous. Yeah, 27 guys firing twin linked HB/PG/flashlights at the Avatar...... .....
Fire On My Target. Good. Reroll successful cover saves. Turboboosting bikes are gonna hate this one.
Front Rank, Rear Rank. Good. Extra lasgun shots, if only it worked for everything.
Didn't really try out the others, but all look good.

Leman Russ Lumbering Behemoth, good. Pask in the Vanquisher, firing both Vanquisher Cannon and Lascannon on the move at BS 4. Downgraded somewhat as all his vehicles were Wave Serpents so I only got ST 8 and 1d6 penetration, still, worked well.

Leman Russ Executioner. Too good. This is gonna be the Gouda and Cheddar for IG. It's expensive, but 4 plasma cannon shots on the move, five sitting still. Go ahead, deep strike near me, cause you know my Inq and mystics are parked right next to the Executioner! Larger games I plan on a squadron of two of these.

Griffons. So happy to have these back. Good. They did OK last night, but I'm seeing their primary use against true horde armies. Maybe I can try them against Orks next week.

Lots of other units/special characters out there that I haven't tried yet. Borrowing a buddie's FW Valk to test it out, until I can get my plastic ones. Altho I'm thinking Vendetta instead of Valkyrie. Gonna try out Hardened Vets instead of the second platoon, with the two HV special caharacter sgts. Also want to see how Storm Troopers do. Might try out Creed, that way I can use him for pretty much all my orders and maybe let the Plt Cmd run around with 4 plasma or melta. Finally, gonna test out a full up Mech list with lots of Chimerae.

Any questions, feel free to ask.

Few questions: How did you go on the Vox in own Squad issue? Just Curious.

And are Executioners really that effective?

How much did you laugh when you failed to kill a LD 2 Avatar?

don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night.

I did the same today. Abject failure. Orders failed to make any difference, mobbing up squads proved to be a hindrance, none of the new units (I tried Griffon, Medusa, Veterans and Penal Legion) did anything noteworthy at all. 210 points of Ogryns, babysitted by a 76 point Canoness killed... wait for it... ZERO MODELS over one shooting phase and three turns of CC (the canoness killed 2 plague marines).

H.B.M.C. wrote:My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.

The Codex is broken. It's a bunch of fragments sitting on the floor, and all the King's horses and all the King's men can never put it together again.

Well No offence, but by your own sig, you seem to loose far more games than win.

Perhaps it isn't the codex that is rubbish...

Might be your dice

don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night. Played against an Eldar army. Tried some stuff different from my usual, wanted to see if my thoughts on how it would tie together would work. Biggest difference is that I usually field lascannon/plasma gun in my line squads and I went heavy bolter/plasma guns instead.

My list, 1750:
HQ: Company Command, Vox, standard, autocannon, Astropath, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance

Elite: Psyker Battle Squad, four extra psykers, stock chimera

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Heavy: Squadron, 2 x Griffons

Heavy: Leman Russ Executioner, Plasma sponsons

Heavy: Leman Russ Vanquisher, lascannon, Pask

DH Allies:
Inq Lord, mystics, etc
Callidus

For starters, drop the Autocannon in the CCS and add a Mortar. Fire it first and the MoO's shot will barrage off of it, thus makeing it hit 1,000% better then just shooting it.
Next Id drop the Callidus assassian. I loved them all back in the day, but they are in serious need of a overhaul cause their aint much use for em anymore. Once this happens, you can downgrad that Inq Lord to the regular Inq for the mystics and save some points. Then I would Drop Pask. He is a cool idea, but not worth it due to the high point cost of base tanks, and Drop the Autocannon out of the Command squads. (Waste of BS 4)

Max out the Griffion Squad..... then max out meltas in your commands.
Then use the leftover points in more troops.

Gwar! wrote:Might be your dice

My dice? Oh please. The fact that I'm a terrible player should be self-evident, at least have the chutzpah to call a spade a spade.

jp400 wrote:For starters, drop the Autocannon in the CCS and add a Mortar. Fire it first and the MoO's shot will barrage off of it, thus makeing it hit 1,000% better then just shooting it..

I am still not convinced this works. The multiple barrage rules are for multiple barrages of the same weapon. I am certain that this will be Clarified (since apparently RaW isn't good enough for some people but anyway)

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Might be your dice

My dice? Oh please. The fact that I'm a terrible player should be self-evident, at least have the chutzpah to call a spade a spade.

I was actually being sincere, but if you want me to...

Being a bad player doesn't mean the codex is bad.

Gwar! wrote:

And are Executioners really that effective?

In the two games I have played with them they have gotten more than double their points back. This is a tank that excels against all comers (mobs, marines, termies, light vehicles, MC, Nobz), so I think it will find its place in a lot of lists. I like it with a naked russ, which I keep in cover to absorb shots and give the tanks a cover save.

I think the new codex is a move in the right direction and certainly made guard better. The 'so-called' vets are whining on this board about this being a lateral shift. It is only a lateral shift if you are not prepared to embrace using some new units and changing your old strategies. Thats a funny thing that - the need to use new units also makes you buy new units. Odd that GW would do that, eh? I wonder why that vendetta is so appealing on a power level? Its odd that its a brand new kit too, huh?

The codex is solid. The whining here will stop in a few months when you see guard lists on the top at a few tournaments and crow is eaten.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.

Okay. If that is the case, then you either didn't get that point across or I missed it. Anyways, yes, Guard does not get that much stronger.

As far as being 'wrong' about the LB rule

No worries.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not enough of a gain to make the unit broken, that's my point. Notice I was replying to Gwar, the one who said that it was 'broken'. Context helps Plexus. Look who I'm speaking to to work out why I'm saying what I'm saying.

The one who mentioned the LB rule in conjunction with doubling our killing power while being mobile was focusedfire. Even looking back, I don't see the connection between Gwar! and the initial LB debate; he only got involved later. He did say that the codex was broken; I then took his post on more firepower on the move - which is true - to be another train of thought. Also, your post I was mainly referring to (the 'oh wait, no' one) did not quote anyone else but seemed to be directed at the general public perousing this thread.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish.

I think you mean 'situational'. And it's no more situational than movement.

Bodichi wrote:I have read over 72 of these pages ( I skipped 5 that I didn't care for). Would some one be so kind as to enlighten be as to a few questons on HQ's

1.Can a CCS out fit the 4 guards mens as it does currently (ie with 4 special weapons, I know all the other wierd abilities?)
2.How many orders can that CCS send out a turn? is it a function of the squads in range or is it limited by the officer?
3.Is summary execution gone?
4.Do commisars take up elite or HQ slots (sionce they are no longer IC's?

Thank you and I am sorry if these questions have already been answered.

I am actually happy to see that commisars now come standard with BP's and that conscripts are stil 4 points and 20-50!

1.yes
2. 2 to any infantry unit within 12inches. you didint ask but ill tell you anyways PCS issue 1 order to infantry units within 6 inches
3.no still there
4. commissars are now upgrades for squads, so they dont take up any org chart.