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See, this is funny - the more I hear of people "confirming" rumors after looking at the book, the more conflicting things I hear - Ogryns with FNP/Ogryns without FNP, RR lance=PW/RR Lance !=PW....I think we're just going to need to see for ourselves...

I'd say that 16 points a model for STs is a pretty serious downside. It's just my opinion but I don't think it's unique. I agree with the viewpoint that some players will still get a lot of value out of STs but I don't plan to beat my head against a wall looking for that silver lining. The STs are so well equipped now that they're just too valuable to risk in combat relative to other IG units. I expect a lot of players to either park the ST models on the shelf or use them as veterans with carapace.

I think guard players need to reevaluate what an "expensive" price is for a semi easy to kill model. Having played both tyranids then marines honestly 16 isn't bad for what the ST can do. And is far from something you have to "protect". Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod. Genestealers with scout are reaching close to 20 sans upgrades and essentially trade their lives for the squad they assault. It's all in making those points count as dearly as you can, 160 isn't bad at all if they take a devastator squad with them or break a loota squad.

For 160 a stormtrooper squad can on average rolls kill 7 marines tripple tapping. They pay for themselves instantly in doing so against a basic infantry squad. I think you and "other guard players" may be expecting a bit much of 16 points if STs are too much to you.

Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod.

Who do you PLAY against? Honestly?

ShumaGorath wrote:

i don't want to start a multipage thread arguing about their effectiveness (see warseer's forum) but let's just say i disagree with you. to simply correct some mistakes or outdated info, ogryns don't get FNP according to the rumors in the past 60 days; the FNP one is from around november and hasn't been backed up since people have supposedly been looking at the codex. also, their statline hasn't been improved, just modified both up AND down. attacks and toughness went up and their guns got better; strength and initiative went down for every round except on a charge turn (furious charge) and their leadership also dropped. if they were all positive changes i'd wholeheardedly agree with an increase in the price by 60% for a unit widely regarded as not worth the original 25pts.

If true then ogryns would definitely be getting a bit of the shaft, but the stormtroopers are not bad at 16. Standard marine cost with considerably more damage output (with orders), much more mobility, and a respectable punch in close combat. They would appear to me to be the games new premiere deep strike suicide squad given their not too immense cost and ability to accurately place themselves without a drop pod. The 16 points may be a shock, but they certainly are worth it in my opinion. Fragile definitely, but they pack a considerable punch.

like i said, i'd rather not argue so i'll just address the facts. if you're referring to the order that lets you fire 1 extra time with rapid fire, the newest rumor is that it applies only to lasguns and not all rapidfire weapons. there is a distinct possibility that the hotshot lasgun (hellgun) is not included in this category.

also, another rumor says that you can't attach priests (who let you reroll misses on a charge) to ogryn squads. according to the fluff, ogryns are VERY religious and buy all the missionary babble with the simplemindedness of a child. they're also the premiere assault unit in the IG. i'm not sure why gw thought it would be a good idea to deny the obvious synergy while at the same time ignoring the ogryn fluff that dates back even to the rogue trader days...

as always, take the rumors with a grain (or bag) of salt. i've never seen the codex myself but i frequent multiple forums daily in the hopes of getting a peek at my fav army's new codex.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think guard players need to reevaluate what an "expensive" price is for a semi easy to kill model. Having played both tyranids then marines honestly 16 isn't bad for what the ST can do. And is far from something you have to "protect". Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod. Genestealers with scout are reaching close to 20 sans upgrades and essentially trade their lives for the squad they assault. It's all in making those points count as dearly as you can, 160 isn't bad at all if they take a devastator squad with them or break a loota squad.

For 160 a stormtrooper squad can on average rolls kill 7 marines tripple tapping. They pay for themselves instantly in doing so against a basic infantry squad. I think you and "other guard players" may be expecting a bit much of 16 points if STs are too much to you.

I can't speak for other IG players but I'd rather spend the points on a Leman Russ or a Master of Ordnance and two regular squads with plasma guns and HB or AC heavy weapons. A Basilisk and Griffon can also be had for about the same points. They could also do a number on your devestator squad or loota squad. More importantly they could start that damage on turn 1 (except in a Dawn of War scenario).

Why do you think the STs will triple-tap? The latest rumors seem to point to an order that gives that ability to IG regular infantry and maybe veterans and conscripts. I haven't seen it mentioned for STs. If they do get it, I'll reconsider my initial impression of STs in the new codex but right now I'm still in favor of dropping 1-3 squads of STs from most of my army lists in order to acquire better units.

Death By Monkeys wrote:See, this is funny - the more I hear of people "confirming" rumors after looking at the book, the more conflicting things I hear - Ogryns with FNP/Ogryns without FNP, RR lance=PW/RR Lance !=PW....I think we're just going to need to see for ourselves...

I agree with you. It's fun to talk about, but it's all hot air until the codex comes out. But what else do we do while taking breaks from painting models? And it does help me to draw up a few new lists and make decisions on which new models to add. All this talk is also inspiring me to paint a lot of models again.

Ivan wrote:

Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod.

Who do you PLAY against? Honestly?

People who understand the value of a drop pod letting out two 5 man sternguard squads (remember they can combat squad after it). One (or both) with a few combi meltas can pay for themselves in a single shooting phase and cripple your opponents rear offense. ~300 points of marines and drop pod can easily kill their points in broadsides, oblits, lootas, leman russes, etc. They are also excellent at forcing your opponent to double back to replace a rearfield objective squad that just took 20 hellfire bolter shots.

like i said, i'd rather not argue so i'll just address the facts. if you're referring to the order that lets you fire 1 extra time with rapid fire, the newest rumor is that it applies only to lasguns and not all rapidfire weapons. there is a distinct possibility that the hotshot lasgun (hellgun) is not included in this category.

That would certainly take a bit of the bite out of the squad. Heres hoping that one isn't true.

I can't speak for other IG players but I'd rather spend the points on a Leman Russ or a Master of Ordnance and two regular squads with plasma guns and HB or AC heavy weapons. A Basilisk and Griffon can also be had for about the same points. They could also do a number on your devestator squad or loota squad. More importantly they could start that damage on turn 1 (except in a Dawn of War scenario).

True, though they will have a much more difficult time doing that capably and pressuring your opponents rearfield objectives or selectively gakking a squad that your opponent thought protected. They are expensive for a guard squad for sure, but 160 isn't enough in my book to really be a major "expenditure". Also keep in mind their ability to accurately deliver melta shots when older drop vets were both less likely to hit and less likely to land correctly.

Lets face it, IG has traditionally had 2 real unit types, TROOP and HEAVY.

And this codex looks like it really is not changing that.

HQ is limited (not bad, some interesting choices)

FAST is questionable, Hellhounds (and friends) look like they got a nerf, Sentinels got a little buff but are still minor, and Valks are nice but not huge imo. RR hopefully have their power lances but may have lost them...

ELITES well what can i say, overprice Ogryns, overprice Stormies, and ratlings that will run off the board faster than you can say "My precious".


But damn, TROOPS look awesome, and HEAVY is a total cream dream

The vendetta if its priced as the rumors say is quite possibly the new best single vehicle in the game. And you get squadrons of three of them in your fast choice.

So don't act too bummed out about that.

ShumaGorath wrote:The vendetta if its priced as the rumors say is quite possibly the new best single vehicle in the game. And you get squadrons of three of them in your fast choice.

So don't act too bummed out about that.

Big *if*, I heard many different rumors on the Vendetta. Ranging from 130 with 3 TL LC and transport ability, to a pure gunship with no transport ability, or transport ability but have to purchase the TL LC in addition to the 130 cost.

But ya, if it really is 130 for 3 TL LC, then there is virtually no reason *not* to take a squad of them. Especially considering a HWS of 3 LC will be 105.

People who understand the value of a drop pod letting out two 5 man sternguard squads (remember they can combat squad after it). One (or both) with a few combi meltas can pay for themselves in a single shooting phase and cripple your opponents rear offense. ~300 points of marines and drop pod can easily kill their points in broadsides, oblits, lootas, leman russes, etc. They are also excellent at forcing your opponent to double back to replace a rearfield objective squad that just took 20 hellfire bolter shots.

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Or you do and you're trying to troll yet another thread into a flamewar (with the help of the usual suspects).

Either is equally bad, far as I'm concerned. But I'm done, back to lurking. And before you start (again) it's not because I concede the arguement to you. It's because you're embarassing yourself far more adequately than I could ever manage.

For reference I do really hope the vendetta is more realistically priced. Even as a non transport gunship 130 for a 12/12/10 fast skimmer with 3 twin linked lascanons is cheap. I pay more for a bare predator without the extra twin linking, side armor, skimming, or fast movement. Can anyone confirm any of the options here?

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Or you do and you're trying to troll yet another thread into a flamewar (with the help of the usual suspects).

Either is equally bad, far as I'm concerned. But I'm done, back to lurking. And before you start (again) it's not because I concede the arguement to you. It's because you're embarassing yourself far more adequately than I could ever manage.

For a guy who flamed me in PM, entered a thread that I was discussing things in (civilly) and flamed me, and then flamed me again and said I was attempting to derail ANOTHER thread you're awfully sure of yourself.

Is there some sort of rule against claiming debate victory without ever having made a point?

If they are 130 points for 3 TL LC, then it is safe to say they will become an extremely common sight to see.

I mean honestly, the rumors sounds insane.

130 points for 3 TL LC
Scout, and 12man transport.

Scout! honestly, 1st unleashing that kind of firepower on side armor... it would be insane.

Every IG list would have 3 minimum.

Frighteningly given scout and the speed of the vehicle it could rather easily drop a melta vet squad on the opposing board edge first turn as well. Nothing would be safe.

Well first turn it comes in it can only fire 1 TL las, if it lives past that the next turn it only has a 6" move to fire all 3. And you will probably need to move more than 6" to drop the meltas off in range of a target. Also with such a large model deep striking should be fun.

A skirmish line can keep scouting valks out, though not everyone has the numbers to take advantage of that. It's going to take at least a couple weeks for people to figure out how to counter the Navy.

Honestly, with 3 TL LC, there is not need to get close. Just Scout move far off on a side and snipe armor with 48" range. Brutal.

Seriously, since you can make a Scout move after they deploy, it will be extremely easy to deny cover saves for their armor. And even if you do not have first turn, your scout move will give your ship cover.

Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Gestalt wrote:Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Does a Chimera have a trio of TL LCs?

Gestalt wrote:Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Moderately priced mobile firepower. The ability to move 24" for that last minute objective rush. Forcing the enemy to deploy to counter deep strikes. Just off the top of my head.

Thats the point, you arent shooting all those while crossing the board. If you are just taking it for the lascannons, infantry can do that and be a scoring unit and harder to kill. Either you are playing for objectives, it doesnt score and isnt shooting 3 LC taking objectives. Or you are playing KP, where its still just an AV12 vehicle that makes a big target, both in tactics and physical size. I'm not saying its useless, its just I don't see why people are jumping on it like its the next nobz bikers.

You know, this codex doesn't exite me (OMG! rly!! ... ) It lets me use Griffons like I've always wanted and gives me some tasty orders, but I feel it comes at too great a price. Officers seem to be a big liability, as the company is neutered without them, and leadership bubbles seem to be "popped". The army as a whole is less flexible and fluffy without doctrines. Lastly, everything but Troops and Heavy Support feels like "why bother" from the doomsday rumors.

I hope I'm wrong...

Gestalt wrote:Thats the point, you arent shooting all those while crossing the board. If you are just taking it for the lascannons, infantry can do that and be a scoring unit and harder to kill. Either you are playing for objectives, it doesnt score and isnt shooting 3 LC taking objectives. Or you are playing KP, where its still just an AV12 vehicle that makes a big target, both in tactics and physical size. I'm not saying its useless, its just I don't see why people are jumping on it like its the next nobz bikers.

No, you are not shooting those LC while crossing the board, but since you are crossing the board in a scout move (before the game starts) that does not matter.

If you think three T3 2W models are "hard to kill" ....

Slap one 50pt infantry squad in the Vendetta and it is a scoring unit.

On the first turn it will be shooting 3 TL LC as enemy side armor, AV11 or 12 will not stand a chance.

So it is extremely effective anti tank, and can make a last turn sprint for objectives, yes it is pretty awesome.

Ivan wrote:

Reecius wrote:Guard have always been playable, you just have to be good general.

For the last 6 months theyve been REALLY playable if you dont mind losing a LOT. Or having the only games you win be vs newbies/fluff armies/drunk people/whatever.

I'm sorry, but if you've been winning lots of games in the last 6 months... then with all due respect you've been playing people not on the same skill level with yourself. Or in some other way severely handicapped... like having to use the Necron codex.

You make some pretty big assumptions, but that is fine, this is internet land.

I have been playing gaurd since 2nd ed, and they have always been a contender, it just takes skill to win with them. Drop troop/Mechanized guard are still very powerful, the new rules only made them better. The new assault rules actually make it easier to beat assault armies, and the buff to vehciles and 4+ cover everywhere make the IG better than they have been in years. Plus, gets hot! was nerfed making my suicide drop squads more likely to stick around for another turn of shooting.

Kill points sucks and I truly hate the system, but I have still won over half of my kill point games with guard.

If you have been having bad luck with them that stinks, but do not presume that your bad luck applies to everyone as that would be immposible to prove. And no, my regular opponants are not bad players nor are they drunk, at least not when playing me!

If you have been losing try to rethink your lists or you tactics....or get some loaded dice! I win almost every game I play with my guard and I play against some good players. We have a lot of depth and talent in the California 40K scene.

P.S., Necrons are really good against Guard! One of the few armies they are still good against.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

On the subject of Storm Troopers....they now have AP3 weapons, with seemingly no real downside, across the unit, and people expected that to come cheap, not to mention their other equipment?

Do you honestly, really think they are worth 16pts?

Their downside is that they have to be at point blank range. They are a one-shot unit. Even with double plasma, against a 10man squad of marines, 3 will on average survive, and in the vast majority of cases pass morale. When those 3 turn around and assault the ST's, even assumign ST's get CCW/pistol, the 3 SM's still on average win and run down the ST's.

ST's have short range anti-MEQ firepower, sure. However point for point they are only staying on Par against MEQ's in a shooting war, losing if squad heavy weapons come into play, and vastly losing in CC.

Nothing they currently have justifies 16pts each in anyway. 12-13 I could see. 16? No. Not in a million years. The current ones are worth 7, at outside best 8pts. Simply giving them AP3 and a couple special rules does not warrant *doubling* the cost of what they are worth.

If they were WS4 I4 with S4 guns, then one would have a good case for 16pts as they'd actually be a threat to wiping out MEQ squad as well as not getting at least instantly torn apart in CC. As is? 13pts is the absolute outside tops I'd pay for them.

For a 190pt ST squad with 2 plasma's, you might as well take a 25man platoon with 4 plasma guns. They'd be more effective in almost every way and cost the same.

Ogryns also seem to have gotten a fair boost, with FNP and an improved Statline. Sure, the 40 pts a pop seem to be a tad excessive, but given their nature in line with the rest of the army (good bulwark unit to block assaults whilst doing some damage back) and I'd say it's not entirely unjustified.

At 40pts each they are as much as Assault Terminators.

Even if they were worth what they put out for their cost, you'd still almost always be better off taking more guns for the price because of the cost of any decent sized unit. For 5 Ogryn's you can get a 35man platoon with 4 Grenade launchers with the new book, or most Leman Russ tanks.

bubber wrote:Erm - I think Middle & I must have been reading different books.
Hotshot lasgun is a hellgun in my mind & is AP3
A Vandetta is not a Vulture - Vendetta can still carry troops while a Vulture is an out & out gunship.
Creed & Kell have different entries & therefore can be separate.
The only thing that can't get in a Valk are Ogryn - boo, no Ogryn skybourne :(.
Any weapon can fire out of a firepoint but I can't see a way of getting 5 special weapons in one squad - Chimera's are dedicated transports.
Heavy weapon & Special weapon squads are as before in number & make-up - ie 3 weapons shared between 6 guys.
There are 6 types of order. High command & some special character upgrade characters can issue 3 while junior officers get the other 3. I think High command can do the junior ones too.
Command squads have command radii - 12" for high & 6" for junior. I think commands can be relayed via a vox too.
Priests are as before where the don't take up an HQ slot (& you can have up to 5)
also you can get heavy flamers in command squads.

@ Khornatedemon - 3 different orders with 3 different abilities

@ Gestalt - if memory serves C is 80, K is 75

caveat - I am 35 and I don't always remember things as i should but am pretty confident about the above.

so there is one order for twin linking, and another for +1 armor pen/re-roll wounds against MC's is what your saying? If so can squads recieve two sets of orders in the same turn?

Morning everyone.

H.M.B.C: First rank fire! Second rank fire! applies to lasguns as written in the rule. +1shot at 12" whether moving or not, and +1 shot out to 24" if you stay still. Could be a problem as a hotshot lasgun could still be a lasgun so could qualify, but doesn't have the full 24" range. But still the rule says " at up to 24" ", so 18" could be seen as up to 24".

Haha. Flowery.

Khornatedemon: Platoon command has FRFSRF! and Move move move and duck and cover ( it's called something different. +1 to go to ground cover saves btw. ) CHQ get those 3 and another 2. One is Bring it down! Gives your squad a re-roll to wound a nominated enemy MC OR +1armout pen if it is a tank. The other is Fire on my target! gives your squad twin linked against a nominated enemy unit.

I think it's one order per unit per turn but if you roll your Ld test on a double one you get the orders first time with no interferance, so you are able to recieve a second. If you roll a double six you get a bit confused and there are no orders for you that turn.

So to clarify for you TL and Re-roll are two orders. BUT there is a slim chance that you could well end up with both.

Gestalt: I'm pretty sure it is just one CHQ still. Chimera have 5 fire points now. I take it this is from only ever having 3 of the old lasguns pointing the same way + two from the top. But now you can fire five of anything you have.

Five ripper guns.
Three lascannons + two lasguns from a HW squad.
Three meltas from Vet squad + HW if stationary + a lasgun.
Three demo charges* and two lasguns from a SW squad. ( *you can now take three demos in a squad. I didn't check if you can only fire one per turn or if you can chuck all three in the same round. So don't quote me on that one. )

Leadership is gone. Orders are the new thing. CHQ has a radius of 12" +vox net, and platoon command has a range of 6" + vox net. I did see a standard in there. One for sure gives you +1 combat res in hth ( What is it? Warhammer )

MinMax: Considering the model is amazing for the commissar lord, I didn't feel there was that much to him. Does not affect orders. Have a radius around them that instills loyalty. Can't remember exactly what it does but is to do with LD tests and rallying i think.

Yarrick is a mini Asurmen! T4, if you wound him you re-roll it for his force field. And to top that off, Eternal warrior. Has a few buffs for nearby squads too.

Glad you asked about Stracken. His robot arm does nothing what so ever. HOWEVER his Uber massively over the top catachan muscley arm is S6 on his stat, ignores armour saves and rolls an extra D6 against vehicles.

I can't say that I looked a the transport capacity for a Vendetta.

Hunting lances are identical to what they are now. S5 I5 ignore saves. And they still say eat hay if there was a rumour about that too.

I've tried not to be an ass and so have avoided the dreaded Lotta spam and Nob Bikers, but if I can look forward to this sort of IG army in addition to the pounding I've already been taking from the Space Marines, screw it. I'm bringing the pain. Those penal troops do sound fun, though.

Good to hear about the hunting lances. Also, why would hellguns be called hotshot lasguns? There is no "hotshot lasgun" in the weapons summary.

focusedfire: Not quite. You start with the CHQ orders first and give them to who you want. Then when all of the CHQ are done your platoon commands give out their orders to who ever they want. Then anyone else with their own orders, Kell, Bastonne, can shout their mouths off.

So CHQ can order your Lascannon HW teams to bring down the fex then your platoon command would give it's orders, to say FRFSRF! then your Bastonne and his vets could movemovemove! cap the objective and win the game.

As far as I could tell, you can order anything that is in range or that has a vox. Only had a once through of the orders rules but it's seems to me you can order whoever you want, be it infantry squads / ratlings / roughriders.

Primaris is an IC I think so no Chimera for him unless he joins a squad. The Psyker battle squad, I didn't see a Chimera mentioned. ( Could be one that i didn't see so not 100% on that one for you. )

Ahh, advisors. Master of ordnance gives you an earthshaker round each turn. Astropath +1 to Your reserves and can re-roll the outflank random table edge dice four your units. ( i'm thinking it is one per turn but could be more ). Fleet officer is my favourite, He sends his bombers / fighters to intercept the enemy reserves giving them -1 to reserve rolls, and he can make your opponent re-roll his outflank random table edge dice. ( Means - Oh noes, your outflanking stealers are on the opposite side to where i'm holed up in this corner. So it's 6' of getting shot at for them all game.

bubber: Hey I'm glad someone else got to see the book too. Sorry for being 'Flowery'. With the Vulture i meant that the Vendetta is the one with the guns. Didn't check it's transport capacity, but I didn't mention it first time round.

I'll take your word on Creed and Kell.

Storm troopers carry Hotshot lasguns. They are Ap 3. Hellguns do not exist anymore, you can call them that but then you may not get the benefit from FRFSRF affecting lasguns.