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Sadly you cannot stick Commissars with conscript squads unless it is a Lord Commissar (who is an IC and HQ slot), which is a shame because they would make excellent 50 man LD9 Stubborn with a reroll tarpit, but instead we must use a slightly more expensive excellent 50 man LD10 Stubborn with a reroll tarpit

Agamemnon2 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night.

I did the same today. Abject failure. Orders failed to make any difference, mobbing up squads proved to be a hindrance, none of the new units (I tried Griffon, Medusa, Veterans and Penal Legion) did anything noteworthy at all. 210 points of Ogryns, babysitted by a 76 point Canoness killed... wait for it... ZERO MODELS over one shooting phase and three turns of CC (the canoness killed 2 plague marines).

H.B.M.C. wrote:My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.

The Codex is broken. It's a bunch of fragments sitting on the floor, and all the King's horses and all the King's men can never put it together again.

realy? i took a squadron of 2 medusas last night i loved them, they blew up alot of marines. I dont think orders will be game breakers just a little sometin sometin for guard squads. I don't think we can make any calls on "brokeness" either way till its been out for a while.

Gwar! wrote:Being a bad player doesn't mean the codex is bad.

It's all anecdotal anyway. I'd need to play another 45-50 games to see if my losing trend with 5E is as noticeable as with the old book.

AlfredTheStrange wrote:realy? i took a squadron of 2 medusas last night i loved them, they blew up alot of marines. I dont think orders will be game breakers just a little sometin sometin for guard squads. I don't think we can make any calls on "brokeness" either way till its been out for a while.

I spent the entire game firing at an enemy Predator with the new AP1 shells, I only succeeded in shaking it on one turn, stunning it on another. The rest of the time, it scattered harmlessly.

focusedfire wrote:@Ph34r- A S8 shot is never a waste against a tank.

Then why not just take a 15 point missile launcher somewhere, instead of dedicating your 170 point tank to the job? Not to mention the fact that when you miss (2/3 of the time) and scatter more than 3" (11/12 of the time) you are not going to hit the tank.

"I spent the entire game firing at an enemy Predator with the new AP1 shells, I only succeeded in shaking it on one turn, stunning it on another. The rest of the time, it scattered...."


Um.... Correct me if Im wrong, I may be in this case.... but based of this:

Medusa Siege Cannon:
Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Bastion Breacher Shell:
Heavy 1, Blast

Wouldnt this suggest that the BBS upgrade fires like a normal weapon Aka Hit/miss? Cause its no longer Ordnance or Barrage.
I think you may have played it wrong.

jp400 wrote:Wouldnt this suggest that the BBS upgrade fires like a normal weapon Aka Hit/miss? Cause its no longer Ordnance or Barrage.
I think you may have played it wrong.

Pick up your Fifth edition rulebook and look up the rules for blast weapons. He played it right.

Ah, dont have a copy handy Atm cause im at my workplace and its been ages since I played with anything "blast" so the rules are fuzzy at best in my mind. lol.

Here's something funny about the vox caster. It gives a reroll if both the officer's command squad and the squad he's issuing an order to have a model with a vox caster. Officers can issue orders to their own unit. If the officer's command squad has a vox caster and the unit he's issuing the order to is his own command squad, then the officer's command squad and the unit he is issuing an order to both have a model with a vox caster. The officer receives a reroll for using a radio to tell himself to do something. I think.

I've got to step in here and address people's concerns that the IG did not gain in power level. If you are truly concerned I suggest you schedule a game and test out your ideas, rather than worry about theoryhammering.

I just played a 1750 competitive game against a top tier ork build... batrep here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236615.page

The ork list was one that I designed for the Vegas GT. It got me 81 battle points, and helped me get a 20-0 massacre on Neil Cauley. If you don't know who Neil is... he's good.

the ork list was then tweaked to introduce TL rokkit deffkoptas with buzzsaws, which are literally IG kryptonite.

The IG list (that is FAR from tuned) managed a 3-0 objective win.

Go out and play some games, the IG codex is way more fun, and way more powerful.

And thanks don mondo for sharing your mini batrep.

jp400 wrote:Ah, dont have a copy handy Atm cause im at my workplace and its been ages since I played with anything "blast" so the rules are fuzzy at best in my mind. lol.

What I did do wrong was not count the +1 to vehicle damage results from having an AP1 weapon, as normal IG doesn't really have much of them, aside from meltaguns whuch I do not use.

I have to say that as far back as I can remember that people have been using the 'afraid of change' line, and it has never once proven true.

From Codex Eldar (where people tried to say that everything, not just harlies and falcons were viable) to Codex Dark Angels (where people said that the list was somehow viable even though everyone knew it couldn't pack the number of necessary heavy weapons to compete) to Codex Chaos (lashes much?) to Codex Space Marines (where units were hideously overcosted, but a select few kept insisting they were great) Orks being the sole exception since it was almost universally considered insane codex.

Now here we are again with the vets saying that the only amazing new units are the Vendetta and the neo-Fear of the Darkness, and these random players insisting that everything is fine and that they are afraid of change, unable to adapt, and need to use tactics.

Is the new codex more dynamic than the previous Guard codex? Definitely. Is it on the level of any of the top tier armies now? No.

Shep, will you do a game (or 3) against a Nob Biker list? The ork list you posted feels a little anemic on anti tank to me, and isn't really my style (but thats just a personal opinion, it is obviously well thought out if you took it to Vegas) I also want to see lash against Guardsmen blobs.

IntoTheRain wrote: Shep, will you do a game (or 3) against a Nob Biker list?

Sure thing. The current IG builds that I think are the best 'all comers' don't really match up all that well against nob bikers. Some IG players are going to stick to strength 8-10 ordnance. If they do that AND are mechanized (which I'm not) they can win against nob bikers as well as any lash list can. My list, as is, would need some good dice, and the right mission I'm guessing. But I'll have KevinNash dust off the biker list and I'll give it a shot.

IntoTheRain wrote:The ork list you posted feels a little anemic on anti tank to me, and isn't really my style (but thats just a personal opinion, it is obviously well thought out if you took it to Vegas)

The ork list had lots of anti-tank. Had 30 deffguns, 3 twin linked-rokkits hitting side armor, nine strength 10 power klaws, 3 strength 8/9 power klaws and three strength 6/7 buzzsaws. I lost every vehicle in my army (11 out of 13) except one valkyrie and the colossus.

IntoTheRain wrote:I also want to see lash against Guardsmen blobs.

A mistake that I was making right when i first started playing IG games with the new rules was to build platoons with the intention of blobbing every game. I thought I'd stretch the value of the commissar and a vox by doing that.

It took about 2 games for me to figure out that blobbing is only for KP games, and that the commissar, while fun, isn't a necessary component. My newest list has 4 line suads in one platoon and 2 line squads that ride in valks in objective games but blob on the ground in KP. I just blob 20 max, and end up with 13 KP. For mech that is perfectly acceptable, and I don't really care if you actually move a demon prince within 24" of one of my line squads in ANY mission. I'll trade 75 points for a demon prince any day of the week (and he is meat if he got within 24" of a line squad) or one kill point for one kill point.

Guard is mainly mechanized, and lash doesn't like mechanized. Lash likes fighting orks. Or armies that are forced to drive their vehicles into obliterator deep strikes.

I posted how I think the guard army is going to matchup against everyone in this thread, about halfway down page 1.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236412.page

No one has really gone after my opinions about it...

I can boil it all down to this. Some armies (and really every codex with the right build) can get themselves a favorable matchup against IG.

What I really like about what IG is doing, is its really taking it to lash chaos (which I believe to be the most powerful tourney list at 1750) and horde orks (which are prolific and are currently terrorizing local tables and tourney tables)

Well played space marines have an advantage over IG, which I don't have a problem with, while space marine opponents are abundant, well played ones are much, much more rare. And i think regular SM need someone to come in and push down horde orks and lash, so that they can step in a bit.

Lash is going to have to adjust (add some more CC, berserkers, lesser demons) and orks are going to have to adjust. Focus more on outflanking, and possibly KFFed transportation. This lets other armies that are struggling in the meta pop up.

focusedfire wrote:@ JohnhwangDD-
1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn.

As an Eldar player, I'm pretty sure you know exactly how much of a speed increase the guard have been given and how much this codex is going to change the metagame.

55 pt transports are expensive. Fully kitted warfish are 120 pts


2There is nothing preventing you from running an all drop army in this dex if your willing to run the valk,

3)The psychic choir when combined with a chimera and squadrons of ordinace equals a lot of forced leadership tests. I don't look at it from the perspective of one unit but the combinations.

4)I play Tau. I have absolutely no fear of the guard drop troop doctrine list or any other list from the current codex. I've already seen three builds that are going to take almost everything that I have just to keep up in this new book.

1. The Lumbering Behemoth simply lets you fire the Heavy Bolter (or Lascannon, if you paid the extra 15!!! pts) at the same target as the pie plate (and note the 36" / 48" / 72" range). If you bought a Plasma Cannon sponson (for 40 pts), you can fire that along with the pie plate. This is nowhere near doubling the firepower on the move.

"Lumbering" is a true misnomer. What it really should be called is "Static Firebase", because that is what it is designed for. Exterminator can fire hull & sponsons & PMHS along with turret gun. Demolisher can fire Demolisher with Lascannon & Plasma Cannons for massed AP2 goodness. But this is only when sitting still. And sponson costs went up big time. Guard pay +20 pts for HB sponsons. That is a *LOT* of points for HBs that only good sitting still on one of the few platforms that is good moving forward.

All told, Russes move 6" and fire the main gun, every turn. But now, they get to also fire the HB. Big freakin' deal.

As an Eldar player, I see that the Guard have far less mobility than before. Guard was basically designed as a pure static gunline. Their transports and tanks are still optimized for static play, rather than a slow "rolling thunder" / steamroller play style.

As far as the metagame goes, Guard take a big step backwards in overall utility. Right now, Guard can get their crappy little dudes anywhere on the battlefield, due to mass Infiltrate or mass Deep Strike. That's gone. For the same points, new Guard are far slower and less mobile.

55-pt transports are expensive when you're talking T3 Sv5+ Guardsmen, compared to 35-pt transports for WS4 S4 T4 Sv3+ Marines. As I said in the Tau thread, Fish are grossly overpriced in the current environment. Unless Robin does the Tau, in which case they are only slightly overpriced, and will drop from 120 pts down to 100-105 pts instead of 75-80 pts.


2. Based on your suggestion, I don't think you understand how "all drop" Guard currently works, or would "work". Currently, for roughly 90-odd pts, I can place a squad of Guardsmen anywhere on the board. I can do this for 3 Veteran squads, 3 Command squads, and 6 Infantry squads. And this isn't vulnerable to being shot down by enemy fire. In the new version, I have a maximum of 3 locations I can affect, a maximum of 24" from their current locations, paying 100+ pts for each opportunity, and subject to Squadron vulnerabilities if I want to so this for more than 3 units, or if I want to include Hellhound / Sentinel units. IMO, the Valkyrie assault is pure fail compared to the current Drop Troops Doctrine. It is unquestionably weaker and riskier.

3. The psychic choir is great against other GEQs, I'll give you that. How many GEQs to you typically face? I think it's a novelty that would be fun to model (see previous posts), but not tactically strong. For essentially the same points as a Choir and AV12/10/10 Chimera, I can simply add a AV14/13/11 Demolisher and drop another S10 AP2 pie. Why screw around?

4. I find that hard to believe, but hey, OK.
____

Personally, I think my default build will be something like:

Command w/ Chimera (HB)

no Elites

Mech /Gunline Platoon
- HQ w/ Chimera (AC)
- 2x ML/Plas
- 2x 3 ML
- 2x 3 Melta in Chimera (AC)
Veterans

Hellhound
Hellhound
Sentinel

2 Demolishers
Demolisher (or 2 Russes) - hard to decide
2 Basilisk

The resurgence of this thread seems to have a lot to do with some people claiming a few pages back that IG players who were upset at the new Codex shouldn't be upset, because the new Codex is good. This is probably true. I'm certain that the new Codex will be an improvement. But I think it's very reasonable to be upset about several significant things:

WYSIWYG problems and discontinued options: Separate HW teams, Veterans with pistols, Sergeants with rifles, etc. These are all mindbogglingly frustrating because of how simple they would be to fix, and how small an impact they would have on the game.

The Codex is bi-polar: This is my biggest complaint. On one hand, there seems to be a terror of making IG strong or synergistic, as visible in the rules for SW Squads or Ogryns. But, on the other hand, you have some truly overpowered units, such as Vendettas. And at the end of the day, unreliable as orders may be, they still hold the potential to let Imperial Guard:
-Shoot more accurately than space marines. (Twin linked BS 3 > BS 4)
-Outrun Eldar. (We may not have Fleet, but we get to roll 3D6 and pick the highest.)
-Get a 2+ Cover save vs. shooting.
-Rally in situations where almost no unit can rally. ("Below 1/2 strength win enemies within 6"? NO PROBLEM!" )

In the end, I think the new Codex will serve as an effective "buff" to the Imperial Guard. But it's not the Codex that I, and many other IG players, wanted. Overpowered units can be almost as frustrating as underpowered units. I'd trade out Vendettas and Psychic Choirs in a heartbeat for a more balanced "core" list.

JohnHwangDD wrote:[

3. The psychic choir is great against other GEQs, I'll give you that. How many GEQs to you typically face? I think it's a novelty that would be fun to model (see previous posts), but not tactically strong. For essentially the same points as a Choir and AV12/10/10 Chimera, I can simply add a AV14/13/11 Demolisher and drop another S10 AP2 pie. Why screw around?

I think you are selling this squad short.

Being able to drop a units Leadership after causing 25% shooting losses is extremely powerful. Being able to pin a squad when they're right in front of our lines is going to be brutal.

Even -6 (80ts) is effective enough to make a Ld10 squad fail regularly, and if they're fearless S6 wounds MEQ on a 2+ (and will half the time ignore MEQ armor, 1/3 the time ignore FNP).

We should take them in addition to our 3 heavies.

I'm going to agree with BoxANT on the psychic choir. I play against an ork player regularly and get it handed to me by nob bikers quite regularly. That first turn turbo boost makes them a tough nut to kill, even with a whole army shooting at them. Now, I can just make them Ld 2, inflict 25 percent casualties instead of wiping them out, and either pin them or run them off the board.

The choir takes the bite out of those lists that rely on one juggernaught unit to steamroll my whole army.

focusedfire wrote:I know its sad that a gun that was useless on the tank before is now able to function anytime that you can fired the Ordinance. That must be a terrible burden to bear.

Now who's trolling...

Gents I am closing this thread at this point. WE're moving into the everyone has a copy stage. Absent a new rumor item, you are free to post further items in discussions, tactics, or lists.