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glon52 wrote:Just looking for some clarification. A vox simply lets me reroll failed orders and I need to be within 6 inches of the platoon officer or 12 inches of the company officer to even receive officers, correct?

Correct. It's to make you set up your squads somewhat tactically/babysit 2 squads

It's to make you set up your squads somewhat tactically/babysit 2 squads

I would agree with the babysit but disagree with the tactically.

I have 17 guardsmen with voxcasters. Anyone want to buy them?

Dude, heck yes!

Urrr, you do realised Vox casters are still useful?

That reroll is dead handy.

Damn double post.

I'll just add that I cannot believe the amount of whining I've seen from guard Players. You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???

Meh. I play mostly Mech anyway, so I don't care.

btw, I'm not bitching, just making a joke 'K?

Mech? Lucky you. 5 Man Fire-Point, No Longer Open topped when doing so, Officers can still issue orders. Mech Guard got awesome (and cheaper points wise too)

while theyre not as good as rumored to be, i really dont find a problem with them now that other people do (and yes, i am one of the people that already has my models assembled and painted with vox casters)

with all squads having vet sergeants, commissars available for any unit, etc., theres really nothing to bitch about...


what peril it must be to be a power gamer; nothing is ever good enough...

I'm terribly entertained that my infantry platoons can be 140 men strong. It also entertains me that Witch Hunters finally got some long range fire support thanks to being able to take an IG infantry Platoon as a troops choice!

The crappy elites also give me a great excuse to bring an Inquisitor and a Vindicare!

Gwar! wrote:Damn double post.

I'll just add that I cannot believe the amount of whining I've seen from guard Players. You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???

Wait what?

Did you just actually use the words Imperial Guard and Broken at the same time and actually mean it?!?!

Now I have seen everything!

Just dont tell H.B.M.C.

krusty wrote:while theyre not as good as rumored to be, i really dont find a problem with them now that other people do (and yes, i am one of the people that already has my models assembled and painted with vox casters)

with all squads having vet sergeants, commissars available for any unit, etc., theres really nothing to bitch about...


what peril it must be to be a power gamer; nothing is ever good enough...

I'm not a power gamer, but I don't take bad options just for funsies. I take decent options that fit my army theme.
All squads have vet sgts and frags included in their cost. Commissars are worse than they were before so that doesn't really matter. I like the new guard book but there is far from nothing to "bitch" about. There are many very stupid things in the new book.

Shep wrote:

BrookM wrote:Reading through things it does look okay, except for a few tiny points like the absense of storm bolters, the inability to field my enginseer with plasma pistol and that I can't slap Pask onto a Baneblade, he's Russ material only sadly.

edit.

And "hot-shot" is a horrible word! What's wrong with Hellgun all of the sudden?

Whenever a new codex comes out there are people who deserve pity.

In the IG community, they are....

1. People who were smart and industrious and put lasguns on their sergeants. I was spared this fate by playing vostroyans and being too lazy to alter the metal sergeants. But the guys that have lasgun sarges are boned and that sucks.

2. People who used other wargear options that are WSYWIG and do not appear in the new book.

3. Warrior weapons players deserve your pity. On so many levels

I think they are hot-shot lasguns so that we would tear each other apart in YMDC about whether you can FRFSRF with them or not.

But seriously, I think the decision was made to ret-con the name in order to fit in with both the older fluff of IG and with the current Dan Abnett novels. One of the biggest SNAFU's was that in the english version of the codex, when talking about the new hot-shot lasgun in the storm trooper section, the term hellgun appears. Oops, cut and paste fail.

Yeah, point one is touchy with me, I've decided to put all my lasgun sergeants into a new squad full of screaming guys. And point three while not a personal issue for me does sting for the guy at the store who went all out with his feral guard army made from marauders and chans.

I'm sure the author of the codex has the, ahem, "best of intent" in his mind but somewhere along the way he either got carried away, Jervis got carried away or one or both of them tried a little too hard to make the codex fit the current image of 40k.

Gwar! wrote:You have the most up to date and broken codex

Whoa... hold on there sport. Broken? Guard? Monoworded sentences?

You must hail from the Chicken Little School of Sky Falling because Guard ain't broken. This Codex is more a lateral shift, some bad things got better, some good things got worse, some bad things got even worse, and some good things got even better. The only real exception to this is the Vendetta, but not because it is so completely awesome (don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be that powerful) but more because of how redundant and overcosted the Valk is. It shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level.

And if they have become a more powerful army overall, then that's a good thing - it might just make them viable in 5th.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:more on topic, i haven't heard much talk of people using Yarrick. does anybody feel like it's time for him to make his dramatic comeback?

Hell-fething-yes! You seen the rules he's got? A T4 human, 3 wounds, Eternal Warrior, re-roll successful To Wounds against him and he can get back up on a 3+!!! He's finally Yarrick again, not that insulting T3/Medallion Crimson Yarrick-Lite from the last Codex.

Him and Straken should team up!

How about Yarick, Straken and Chenkov in some sort of sickening tag team? thats what I did this evening. 2X 50 Stuborn, leadership 10, counter attack, furious charge, "send in the next wave", conscripts. Then rapid fire FRSR'ed said 50 conscripts! it'l ruin someones day.

H.B.M.C.-Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase and it only, "shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level."

The Guard just became a fast army and it, "Is more of a lateral shift"

Cheap battle psykers that lets the IE(Imperial Eldar) do its version of dual lash by leadership whipping your opponents off of the board. Yeah, it just might make them viable in 5th.


IMHO,This thread is beginning to make me think that a lot of the veteran players are so stuck in the old ways that they're going to have difficulty adapting to these new styles. I'm looking for a newcomer to romp and stomp with the IE at the tournies this year. I'll even go as far to say that a fair number of the lists will, probably, have "a" squad of the "useless" Stormtroopers in it.

I know, you're going to say that I'm way off base here. Especially the last part, but time will tell.

Gwar! wrote:You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???

Hahahahaha!!! That's a good one!

No, I'm not crying about those things.

I'm pissed about (in no particular order):

1. Heavy Weapons
- T3 W2 blobs on 60mm bases
- continued overpricing
The basing / W2 thing is a completely fething slowed and unnecessary change, and I am *NOT* going to play ball. Also, the pricing for MLs & Lascannons is still messed up.

2. Mobility
- loss of efficient strategic & tactical mobility (i.e. Drop Troops & Light Infiltrate)
Chimera is still grossly overpriced in a 5E mono-Dedicated Transport context. If it were 40-45 pts, or AV12/12 for 55 pts, that might be OK. But lacking mass Deep Strike and/or mass Infiltrate as alternatives, at 55 pts, it's too expensive

3. Durabilty
- loss of efficient durability (i.e. Cameoline & Carapace)
Neither of these options were broken or significantly unfair, although a slight adjustment to 15 pts for either choice would have been OK.

4. Elites
- 16-pt Storms
- 40-pt Ogryns
These could both have been quite attractive options, but neither is playable at all due to punitive prices. Ogryns were overpriced at 25 pts, and their cost went up by more than 50%. Storms were also overpriced at 10 pts, and their cost also went up by over 50%. Sheer idiocy. But at least we'll know who the true "Fluff" players are

5. Armor
- Lumbering Behemoth pointless
While Squadrons are nice, the supposed fix of "Lumbering Behemoth" is a joke, as Sponsons are no more playable now than they ever were before.

Taken all together, GW is basically painting IG back into a corner where they are only good for a static gunline. We actually lost a lot of capabilities compared to the previous Codex pretty much across the board. While Platoons more-or-less stayed the same, the only net gain is in static pie-throwing, for which we have somewhat more flavors than before. Sure, we got the Valkyrie, which is basically a less-durable Wave Serpent, at full points cost. I was hoping for a revamp that pushed IG squarely into the Mechanized / Airborne / Ambush world, and that simply didn't happen.
____

focusedfire wrote:Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase

The Guard just became a fast army

Cheap battle psykers

This thread is beginning to make me think that a lot of the veteran players are so stuck in the old ways

I'm confused. Extra Armor tripling its cost from 5 pts doesn't double the effective power. Nor does Lumbering Behemoth. So what are you talking about here - please explain.

The new Guard are a lot slower than an all-Drop Troop (Deep Strike) or Light Infantry (Infiltate) armor. Chimeras aren't fast, and at 55+ pts each, they're not cheap. Valkyries are Fast, but at 100+ pts, you can't afford to take them.

The Primaris Psyker is one dude, and that isn't how Guard win. The Psyker Choir is interesting, but their points are probably better spent on more stripper Demolishers.

I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase and it only, "shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level."

Tempered by the presence of the Squadron rules, forcing groups of tanks to fire at the same target and allowing them to die to glancing hits.

focusedfire wrote:The Guard just became a fast army and it, "Is more of a lateral shift"

We had Drop Troops already. We just swapped a free ability for all our squads for a very good skimmer.

focusedfire wrote:Cheap battle psykers that lets the IE(Imperial Eldar) do its version of dual lash by leadership whipping your opponents off of the board. Yeah, it just might make them viable in 5th.

Psychic Chiors aren't 'Lash' like any more than Zoanthropes are. People are overstating the power of this... power. What good will it be against all the Fearless units in the game?

@ JohnhwangDD-
1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn. This isn't even counting your fast attacks now actually being fast. I don't know what other abilities are coming with the Tanks just yet. As an Eldar player, I'm pretty sure you know exactly how much of a speed increase the guard have been given and how much this codex is going to change the metagame.

I also love how much this game shifts in just a year when 55 pt transports are expensive. Fully kitted warfish are 120 pts have kess capability for firepower, shorter ranged weapons,and they aren't fast either. Tactical hint about the Chimeras, they are still less than 4" wide and don't have side exit points, for a reason now. A vehicle squadron maintains 4"coherency. Cover the sides and maybe the front, you have an armored spear head that is like a juggernaught. I know this has a big foot print but who beside IG dishes out tons of AV14 killing ordinance.

2There is nothing preventing you from running an all drop army in this dex if your willing to run the valk, vendettas and one or two elite choices of storms. Now your probably looking at the negatives to counter this argument but just remember the negatives of doctrines. Every unit or tactic no matter how good, has or is supposed to have a flip side that is a drawback.

3)The psychic choir when combined with a chimera and squadrons of ordinace equals a lot of forced leadership tests. I don't look at it from the perspective of one unit but the combinations.

4)I play Tau. I have absolutely no fear of the guard drop troop doctrine list or any other list from the current codex. I've already seen three builds that are going to take almost everything that I have just to keep up in this new book.



@H.B.M.C.- 1)Who beside the Tau can dish out those kind of AV14&13 penning shots in a single turn much less from a single squadron? And this army has the answer to the Tau. It also now has the answer for the Orks, Eldar, SMs, MCs, and MEQs.

The Tanks firing at the same target isn't as much of a negative because you figure all of the hits before moving on to wounds and then removal. This just means that there is going to be more models under the second template, And if you don't want to play that way you can still take single tanks. Right?

2)You still have drop troops. You also now have fast survivable units instead of the KP give away you had before.

3)Then against fearless units they drop the big pie plate o'doom on them. Its not like they have only one purpose and beyond that they are screwed. This isan area that guard are better at than Tau or Eldar. One squad being decent at multiple things.



edited some horrendous spelling/typos

EDIT: PLEASE DO NOT DENEGRATE OTHER USERS WITH PERSONAL ATTACK
Waaagh_Gonads

The list is good and interesting. It has huge flexibility. Guard is finally more than one dimension and yet the usual suspects who gripe about everything are griping about this. Seriously, why even play a game that you all obviously dislike so much. Write up your own rules and go play with yourselves.

The rumor thread should probably be closed and a tactics thread opened now that the codex is pretty available at most LGS's

Somnicide wrote:Seriously, why even play a game that you all obviously dislike so much. Write up your own rules and go play with yourselves.

*sigh*

See, arguments like this are equal parts amusing and disheatening. They're amusing because they hold no water, and disheartening because it's sad when someone thinks that they're actually making a point. If I truly disliked 40K, I wouldn't play it, so please, spare us the "why do you play something you hate" claptrap. As far as making our own rules, we did. Before 4th Ed came out. And with all the humility I can summon, they're better rules than GW's.

Next!

HHmm. It is funny how the most intelligent can be bated.

H.B.M.C.- You had a reasonable reply up above yet you focused upon the trollish one. By giving such attention are you not giving them exactly what they wish, thus in some small part encouraging others to, also, do so?

Don't presume to know who, why or when I am replying to someone. Just because I haven't done something yet, doesn't mean I'm not going to. But since you asked...

1)Who beside the Tau can dish out those kind of AV14&13 penning shots in a single turn much less from a single squadron? And this army has the answer to the Tau. It also now has the answer for the Orks, Eldar, SMs, MCs, and MEQs.

I assume when you talk about anti-armour you're referring to a Squadron of Vanquishers yes? 50% of Vanquisher shots will miss, and of the shots that hit, 50% of them will be ignored by the cover enemy tanks are usually in (unless they're advancing in transports of course). The points paid for a Vanquisher isn't worth having 75% of its shots do nothing all game.

Or if you're talking about the Vendetta, as I have said, I believe this vehicle to be stupidly good. I truly wish it was not part of the Codex, just like I truly wish the Valkyrie wasn't an overpriced piece of gak with no options to speak of. There was nothing wrong with the Forge World version - just some tweaking for regular 40K and Bob's your uncle. I can't claim to know how effective certain combinations of tanks will be - none of us can yet, aside from educated guesses - and I doubt we'll know the ramifications of vehicles in squadrons until we've all gone out and tested them. But if I had to make an educated guess I'd say that for all the 'power' that's there, there's enough working against that power to balance it (higher costs of vehicles, higher costs of upgrades for vehicles, dying on immobilisation results).

To put another way, not all powerful units are unbalanced. You can have powerful balanced units, and I think that's what Russ Squadrons will be. Certainly not 'broken' as some people seem to want to think.

The Tanks firing at the same target isn't as much of a negative because you figure all of the hits before moving on to wounds and then removal. This just means that there is going to be more models under the second template

So thanks to a quirk in the way the rules work, they might be effective (or over-effective). Look at it from a different angle, perhaps that quirk of the rules is what actually makes such a formation viable. If you worked out one tank before firing the next, would they be anywhere near as good? No. The third one would be a waste and, in fact, there would never be a third tank.

Which leads me nicley to...

And if you don't want to play that way you can still take single tanks. Right?

I'm deathly afraid of this coming to pass, for all that hard work and extra-long lunches that Arby would have put into this Codex and its rules only to find that no one used Squadrons because of all the downsides.

I hope Squadrons are powerful and not a liability, otherwise what's the point?

2)You still have drop troops. You also now have fast survivable units instead of the KP give away you had before.

Which, as I said, changes nothing. Rather than doing Drop Troops one way we just do it a different way - the method has changed the results have not. That's pendulum game design, and I hate it.

3)Then against fearless units they drop the big pie plate o'doom on them. Its not like they have only one purpose and beyond that they are screwed. This isan area that guard are better at than Tau or Eldar. One squad being decent at multiple things.

I don't really have a problem with a squad being good at doing different things - its a rarity in 40K - but really, we can't claim this unit to be the most broken unit ever (EVAR!!!1) until we've seen it used a few times across a range of games across a range of opponents against a range of armies.

Looking at a unit's stats can tell you a lot - it's what we're basing out (educated) guesses on - but it can't tell you everything.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.

I could not have said it better myself. There has never been a well designed IG codex (the 2E list's being horrible was somewhat offset by the metagame back then being an absolute mess anyway), and at this rate, there never will be. Fundamentally, the Guard playstyle is still the same it has always been, with maybe some numbers shifted around.

focusedfire wrote:1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn.

Oh, I thought it allowed me to shoot one more weapon (moving) or 3 more weapons (not moving, and you have to pay 20+ points for sponsons). So I guess you are referring to a leman russ with a turret lascannon and hull lascannon (double the tank killing shots from 1 lascannon!). I was not aware that this option existed.
My leman russes will either be wasting their (now more expensive) lascannon against infantry who are surely in cover, or wasting their battlecannons against vehicles that I shoot the lascannon at. Most likely though they will just sit there like they used to, except now they will fire more heavy bolter shots, be 20 points more expensive, and not have extra armor.
Now it's not all that bad though, 9 heavy bolter shots is a dead marine a turn, but it certainly isn't "mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn".

The rules didn't make Russes more mobile. It actually made them slower with no appreciable gain in firepower. I don't know why people seem to think that Lumbering Behemoth allows you to move and shoot everything - it doesn't - it allows you to shoot Ordnance along with other guns, assuming you could fire the guns normally. So if you move (and now they're slower at that), you can only fire defensive weapons plus your turret (whatever your turret may be). So if you have 3 Heavy Bolters (and pay the wonderfully pricey 20 points for them), you... can't fire them.

All these rules do is further reinforce the "Main Battle Bunker" problem with tanks in 5th (which came from 3rd Ed, the other ruleset Jervis wrote).

Everyone get their cans of tinned food, keg-sized water supplies and head down to the bunkers.

Why?

Well...

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.

I could not have said it better myself. There has never been a well designed IG codex (the 2E list's being horrible was somewhat offset by the metagame back then being an absolute mess anyway), and at this rate, there never will be. Fundamentally, the Guard playstyle is still the same it has always been, with maybe some numbers shifted around.

Myself, DD and Aggy agree on a point.

H.B.M.C You seem to be misreading Lumbering behemoth rule.
It doesn't let you move and fire ordnance, because you could do that anyway (assuming it wasn't barrage) what it lets you do is Move 6" and Fire your turret PLUS 1 Main and all Defensive Weapons. So you can move and Shoot the turret plus your Hull Lascannon for example.

And as for commissars being worse... they are most certainly not.
Ld9 or Ld10 with Stubborn and a Reroll is 10000% better than fearless and taking over 9000 No Retreat! Wounds.

Yes, and let's take a look at what benefit there might be from moving... no, no, I'll think of it... umm... Ok, you could... no. You're better off in cover there... ok what about... ah... no, still better off in cover. I 'spose you could try... no... the Vendetta's faster anyway. Hmm... Oh! Yes! What about... wait... no... no.

Rather than spending 20 points on, say, some Heavy Bolters, spend those same points on Camo-Netting. Nothing says 'FETH YOUR RAILGUNS' quite like a 3+ Cover Save.

Just throwing this out there. I played a game tonight (big 3v3 game) and used a squad of 10 ogryns with a comissar lord. held 1,000 points of melee CSM up in combat for 4 rounds. MVP: bone ead'

Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.

The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P) making them one of the most versatile tanks in the game.

Not to mention a Squadron of LRBT = Dead Nob Bikers/Other Horrible Gribbly Unit

But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.