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The Good:
Basic troopers (got better higher LD lower price and frags)
Penal Legion (assuming base cost of 50 these guys look like fun
Sentinals (prices got a drop so you can not complain too much)
Stock Russ's (lumbering and squadron make these things a part of the new IG power build)
Manticore's (d3 s10 blasts for every rocket? If you can fire off more than one like the IA one than color me sold)
Hydra's (75 points could be useful against certain armies and builds)
Griffon (75 point str 6 large blasts!)
Vendetta 130 points for three twin linked lascanons troop 12, 12 12 10 and ultra fast.... Yeah I will buy one
Chimera (55 points is a good drop in points)

Possible Good:
All of the special characters, (no costs yet but looks like some cool builds)
Psycher Choir (could be good need more detail)
Conscripts (need more data)
advisors (look cool, but need more pricing data)

Possible Bad:
Valkerie, why buy one when you can get a vendetta?
Death strike (love the idea by the way, but this is a APOC toy)
Commisars (if they can take fists and where they can go will determine if these guys are all right)
Ratlings (need price and rules

Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Stormies 16pts,
Ogryn 40
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?
Most other Russ varients (over priced)
Most other arty not already listed (over priced)

Did I leave anything out? Anyone think any of these need to be moved to a different section?

Warning: Posters will abide by Rule #1 on this thread. Moderators are watching afetr the last thread was locked.

Well, Valkyrie vs Vendetta isnt that clearcut. Against some armies, I'd want those sexy MRPs.

I guess Frazz missed the fact that Page 11 was almost 100% on topic. Anyway, here are the last few posts from that thread:

Aggy wrote:

Shummy wrote:
Which is the problem with having too many unit options. Units will be redundant. The IG don't need as many tanks as they have, they don't need ogryns, they don't need ratling snipers, they don't really even need the penal troops. The codex has enormous variety but a large amount of overlapping or unnecessary roles. The ogryn simply fall into a niche that the IG have no need for and would need to be pointlessly cheap to see use over more versatile and numerous base troop and tank combinations. Their biggest problem is that they don't fit in the army.

I've sometimes advocated "Make them decent at their role or take them out", but really, I wouldn't want to lose Ogryns. They're a fun piece of background material. Of course, if I had my druthers, we wouldn't've lost Electro-Priests either.

Aggy wrote:Nork with FNP warms the very cockles of my heart, because it means there's at least one Ogryn in the game who's as tough as one should be. I'm not sure if he'll be all that useful, since getting your command HQ into close combat is a large liability for IG, doubly so if it costs you two Orders per turn.

H to the B to the mother fething MC wrote:Speaking of Nork, does anyone think that they'll (eventually) re-issue the original Nork model, or make a new one? Ditto for Chenkov and Al'rahem?

Shep wrote:You might have already answered this, but do you have an aversion to running your kasrkin as veterans with 3x special weapons, 4+ armor save BS4 troops?

Your's Truly wrote:I'm very much against counts-as. I'm one of those people who will go out and buy a model to represent something I don't have rather than sub it during a game. A while back for a series of upcoming games I needed some Scouts w/Missile Launchers and two Land Speeders w/Heavy Flamers, so I went out and bought some scouts and two new Land Speeders.

I'm just one of those people who really likes WYSIWYG, and will usually not field something if I cannot rep it with the correct model. It's one of the reasons I own about 10 Marine Commanders with various weapon options, and then several duplicates of those models but with Jump Packs added and why I own 15 standard Russes (I have three of each possible weapon config - Hull HB, Hull LC, Hull HB + Sponson HBs, Hull LC + Sponson HBs). I hate fielding things that look different to what they're armed with or what they are. It's a personal OCD-ish thing.

So the answer is no, I wouldn't use them as H-Vets because... well... they're Storm Troopers. I love using them as Storm Troopers, even though they've never been that great (really, having 6 squads in Chimeras is great fun, even if they're worthless, and I imagine that 6 squads in Valks will be even more worthless, but way more fun!).

I just can't use a unit that is clearly one thing as something else completely.

And... go!

Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag, and the limited stats and gear we know they have, need to have amazing rules to justify that cost. Yet things like Harliquins earn their points at a similarly stupid cost. There is a possiblity that there are some buried rules that justify it.

If not, than that speaks really poorly for GW's design. I've seen at least 3 solid ideas for both stormtroopers and Ogryn on fan sites (cheap and decent, same price and booster, and really good an pricey), but none went as high as these guys. We'll see.

It looks like the core of infantry platoons, heavy weapon squads, tanks, and veterans to taste might remain the core units in the list. that's good, as it means my army doesn't need to be shuffled, but it's a bit of a bummer that they couldn't figure out how to add genuine variety to the IG.

IG aren't great in combat, but that simply means we can't build a combat oriented army, not that we should suck at it utterly. What are some of the best shooting units in the game? Obliterators, Dakkafexes, lootas. All in traditionally HtH armies. There is room for many different assault units in the IG book:

Penal Legion: troops that can score, cheap, limited shooting, speedbump/harassment team. Have enough bite to threaten outflankers, deep strikers, etc.
Ogryn: tough, durable, hit hard enough to go toe to toe with nearly any non-dedicated assault squad, or a depleted assault unit after some shooting.
Rough Riders: a one hit wonder, able to lay plenty of wounds against high armored foes, can assault vehicles with krak grenades,

There are plenty of good roles left. Why not include zealots (with soem form of invlunerable save) or Catachan Devils (poison attacks combined with great short range shooting)

There are plenty of cool IG niches available, they just need to fill them. In the current codex there are just too many variations on "assault units that don't do much damage, loss by a lot, get swept, and end up accomplishing nothing."

Careful HBMC, you are the list of posters I am reviewing tomorrow after I have calmed down overnight.

Adding my last post from previous thread

I bet they are counting the +1 str from ripper guns as the furious charge.

He did say ogryns were 40 points, he also said that the 115 cost may be the Bone'ead and 3 ogryn, for 4 total. Or it may be 3 total, so there is still hope at least. Nork has FNP too.


The tank commander is BS4 and +1 to armor pen rolls, The vanquisher cannon doesnt really need that but it would give a hull lascannon S10 at the same target. That would be 220 points.

BOLS has the twin linked and +1 armor pen as 2 separate orders. Fire in ranks seems to be lasgun only, not plasma guns/hellguns. Orders are taken using the receiving squad's LD, not the officer, so Vox is pretty mandatory and might screw hvy weapon squads then.

Plasma tank is 230 for 5 plasma templates, 4 while moving, Not hugely overpriced. Some russ are good, some not.
Sentinels didnt drop in price, still 35?
Ogryns MAY be 115 for Bone'ead and 3 ogryn (4 guys), dont know options. So Possibly bad.
Heavy weapon squads may be Possible bad if they are just 3 bases(6 men) as it would mean no ld 8 sarge, no vox, 2 wounds loses a gun.

No one has mentioned if the officers have the leadership rule still, and if they do why would they bother with orders using the receiving unit's leadership instead of the giving officer?

I'll wait and see...but stormies at 16pts may not be THAT bad.... depends alot on their equipment, unit entry, special rules, transport etc...
Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

I'm holding my breath in regards to the battle report that will no doubt pit Guard against Orks.

Hi foil!

Looks pretty good...

I might have added a few of your 'definitely bad's to the 'maybe bad's section, but I think you've got the broad strokes painted in nicely.

@HBMC in regards to your reply from earlier. I looked through your gallery but couldn't figure out if you run your army as a cadian army, and use your ISTs to represent kasrkin, and if so, wouldn't it actually be MORE accurate to have the kasrkin models be veterans. My cadian fluff knowledge is a bit rusty but the kasrkin don't actually attend the schola progenium right? They didn't go to toy soldier school so they don't have to be ISTs. Veterans may end up being a better fluff representation.

I can see that their might be a sticking point on their hellguns. I suppose fluff does imply that kasrkin are issued with hellguns and although it won't have any game impact for you (ap5 versus ap-) i can see that you don't like the idea of the kasrkins big heavy backpack fed lasguns not being something different than the stock lasgun.

I dunno, I think it might be cool to try out the veterans as your basic troop choice.

And of course if your ISTs are supposed to actually be ISTs then please disregard

I would add the hellhound to the known bad or possibly bad category, but that's probably just because that was my favorite unit in the last book. I only play my Guard in Cityfight. A 12 inch range is just too close for such a squishy and reportedly expensive vehicle. And do we know anything about what tanks are allowed track guards?

I'm really looking forward to seeing the Codex. With the large volume of tanks and shooty goodness, a legion modelled as traitor guard will provide excellent backup for my CC-centric Khorne army.

Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

The Good:
Basic troopers (got better higher LD lower price and frags)
Penal Legion (assuming base cost of 50 these guys look like fun
Sentinals (prices got a drop so you can not complain too much)
Stock Russ's (lumbering and squadron make these things a part of the new IG power build)
Manticore's (d3 s10 blasts for every rocket? If you can fire off more than one like the IA one than color me sold)
Hydra's (75 points could be useful against certain armies and builds)
Griffon (75 point str 6 large blasts!)
Vendetta 130 points for three twin linked lascanons troop 12, 12 12 10 and ultra fast.... Yeah I will buy one
Chimera (55 points is a good drop in points)
IG command section (orders and only one VP mean that these guys got a major boost)

Possible Good:
All of the special characters, (no costs yet but looks like some cool builds)
Psycher Choir (could be good need more detail)
Conscripts (need more data)
advisors (look cool, but need more pricing data)
Special weapon squads (look to be cheaper and able to take 3 demo charges)

The Arguable:
HellHounds and Varients (went up in price, lost range, but are now fast..... have seen quotes both ways)

Possible Bad:
Valkerie, why buy one when you can get a vendetta?
Death strike (love the idea by the way, but this is a APOC toy)
Commisars (if they can take fists and where they can go will determine if these guys are all right)
Ratlings (need price and rules)
Heavy Weapon Sqauds (will need to know how many men in a squad, this may move to GOOD easily if 10 man squad)

Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Stormies 16pts,
Ogryn 40
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?
Most other Russ varients (over priced)
Most other arty not already listed (over priced)

Updated with new comments and recomendations

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

Not sure, yet. PLay testing will tell, but they did come down in price so I have to mark that as them getting a bump in power.

foil7102 wrote:Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?

Hilarious.

An armor 14/13/12 tank for 240 pts that can shed 5 plasma blast templates a turn is...bad? You crack me up.

Sorry guardsmen, I agree that apparent 16 points for stormies with a middling ap3 weaksauce hotshot lasgun is overpriced because they really only function well against marines and average at best, but not everything in your army can be so good and be cheap at the same time.

If anything, this tank should be in the ranks of "OMFG! Supergood!" as its utility surpasses merely killing marines, but with the blast template layout, it is good against ALL armies.

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

BrookM wrote:I'm holding my breath in regards to the battle report that will no doubt pit Guard against Orks.

I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I was kinda hoping for a Leman Russ with the ability to take heavy flamers/inferno cannons and multi-meltas, like a sort of 'heavy hellhound'. Not a very original concept, but it would be cool to see.

foil7102 wrote:

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

Not sure, yet. PLay testing will tell, but they did come down in price so I have to mark that as them getting a bump in power.

I mean, a squadron of three with ML is only going to be 105pts, which isn't very much. It's mobile and can outflank. The problem with comparing sentinels to Warwalkers (AV10 light walkers that actually do something) was always that WWs were heavies. Now that IG can overload on heavies, anything that can't score or launch ordnance probably needs to be pretty good to justify inclusion.

You're right, the unit is clearly feisty, and improved, but every codex includes units that are decent, got a power bump, and are fun to play, but simply never see the light of day due to competition from other sources. I've got a whole bunch of sentinels, though, and being able to run them effectively would make me a happy panda.

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

I think they will be better than they are now, but "good" is a relative term. You can still get a Chimera (better armour and two guns) for less than two Multi-Laser Sentinels though, so that's a nod against the Sentinel. They're still about 10 points overpriced (25 points for an AV10 walker with a single BS3 gun seems about right, and then the usual +0 for Heavy Flamer, +5 for AC/Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta, +10 or +15 for Lascannon/Plasma Cannon would work better).

The interesting part though is the camo-netting. Armoured Top and all that other crap never made any sense on Sentinels because at the end of the day they were AV10 vehicles and died when you looked at them. An AV12 support sentinel with a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon, sitting in cover with Camo-Netting is suddenly an AV12 Sniper with a 3+ save. I don't know how much that is in points (Scout Sentinel would be 55, assuming 35+10+10). So hopefully around the 60 to 65 (+/-) mark. Any more than that and you'd be better off with something else though.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

And with this, I agree.

How much time did they spend on creating a new model range for the newest army set and watch them go away . . .

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Isn't that more to do with the crapness of the Vespid models?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Come now, HBMC, look at your own sig! The question isn't "Does anybody play Vespids," the question is "does anybody BUY Vespids."

the Warseer poster "the Knowing" dropped some bombs on their version of this thread. Including the news that Storm Troopers are limited to 6 men per squad. Important if true.

Hm, actually, from context. tjat COULD be a brainfart. I think he's answering to a question about SWSes.

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

Maybe my search-fu is bad, considering Im at work right now, but I see that special weapon squads are 6 man, but do we know if heavy weapon squads are 6 man>? I have seen a rumor that says they are 3 teams, 4 guys, for 10 wounds..

Polonius wrote:Now that IG can overload on heavies, anything that can't score or launch ordnance probably needs to be pretty good to justify inclusion.

I guess we know which army all the displaced Iron Warriors will go for . . .

That's a rumour that was bandied around before we saw that HW teams were single W2 models. It seems less likely now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

Battle report this time around will doubtless contain as many Valkyries as the FOC allows. Or they'll just say "Sod it!" and play an Apocalypse game so they can use as many as they like.